Refresh II

[Pteryx]

Re: Refresh II

DoT is an essential part of tanking, oft overlooked by those who don't know the nuances behind it. For WAR, they can only tank through raw damage and other enmity spikes. This is also a major part of NIN tanking, though the enfeebles and elemental wheel also play a role.

PLDs often marginalize thier ability to DD and the fact they have spells that take a bit longer than the Ni spell line to get off, being able to continue DoT in the process of casting would be an asset.

I can certainly see your argument as to why PLD would benefit from that. Heck, PLD/RDM (which I play) would benefit from it even more. I certainly wouldn't be upset if PLD got this ability instead -- so long as it were subbable. (Note that I'd want it to be subbable if RDM got it, too.) It not only would help PLD in every situation, but would make RDM/PLD more fun.

Why should RDM get such an ability? What benefit does it bring to the PT other than "just because?"

Its not the benefit of damage, RDMs melee DoT is absolute piss compared to thier DoT via nukes.

I don't expect that such an ability would see much use in full-sized XP parties; that wasn't the point. However, the ability to deal MPless damage, however slight, while still casting as perpetually as always (while YM thinks we should become less busy, I think we should stay just as busy as always), could come in handy in other situations. I find myself picturing casting something long like Raise while still stabbing something, or getting the benefits of Aspir Daze as part of a scramble to keep casting at full speed without running out of MP before Convert's up, or not having to spend three minutes buffing before a fight in order to get any use out of those buffs (the primary problem with SE's "let's give RDM more spells for meleeing!" idea).

It would also make it so that there's more of a point to Enspells existing at all. As it currently stands, if we want to melee we have to not only give up spell accuracy and potency, but stop casting. The tradeoff is almost never worth it. This ability would make it a smaller tradeoff, and open up the opportunity for us to be part-time melee-mages -- part-time, not full-time as Itazura insists I'm advocating. It would only lead us to being full-time melee mages if there were no tradeoff, or outright synergy as in BLU's case. As long as our spells are helped by INT and MND and staves and not helped by swords and STR and DEX, there will always be some tradeoff.
______________________________

It's not that hard to hit the enspell cap. I'm not sure what you're getting at with this statement.

That's exactly what he's referring to. What he's trying to say is that Enspell damage is too low -- and I can certainly agree on that front. It shouldn't be raised to a point where we can compete with real melees, but it should be more than a token nod to the concept of a "fighter-mage", too. If Enspell is supposed to be how we use weapons, then it should at least deal enough damage to evoke an "enh" instead of an "lolgimpn00b". -- Pteryx

[Murphie]

Re: Refresh II

That's exactly what he's referring to. What he's trying to say is that Enspell damage is too low -- and I can certainly agree on that front. It shouldn't be raised to a point where we can compete with real melees, but it should be more than a token nod to the concept of a "fighter-mage", too. If Enspell is supposed to be how we use weapons, then it should at least deal enough damage to evoke an "enh" instead of an "lolgimpn00b". -- Pteryx

So what do we give up for that boost in enspell damage? And wouldn't a change to the ability to cast while still auto-attacking mean a significant change in battle mechanics for everyone?

[Pteryx]

Re: Refresh II

So what do we give up for that boost in enspell damage?

Well, we can't very well get the benefits of a staff and melee with an Enspell at the same time (making Enspell into "En-staff" would just make frontline mode and backline mode run together). That being said, I wouldn't mind if the cost of Enspells went up a little to make up for the damage increase -- but by no more than the same proportion the damage itself went up by.

And wouldn't a change to the ability to cast while still auto-attacking mean a significant change in battle mechanics for everyone?

Only if you implemented the ability for everyone. My entire suggestion was to make it a job trait, not a systemwide change. -- Pteryx

[Murphie]

Re: Refresh II

So like, a JA that means that every 5 minutes we have 1 minute of casting time where we can still auto-attack, or...?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by en-staff.

[Pteryx]

Re: Refresh II

So like, a JA that means that every 5 minutes we have 1 minute of casting time where we can still auto-attack, or...?

It could be done that way, but I was thinking an always-on job trait. It's not as though we'd melee frequently even with it being there constantly, since getting the bonuses from staves is such a big deal.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by en-staff.

That one was someone else's idea, and not one I think is a good idea -- the idea of having Enspells also give the accuracy and potency bonuses (and presumably penalties) of an ele staff. The idea behind that one is to make it so we don't need staves, but I tend to think that'd just become another necessary self-buff in the back line and wouldn't encourage people to let us melee -- and would slow us down because they'd be a lot slower to cast than staves are to swap, to boot. It'd just cheat us out of our signature melee buff; the community would regard it as a magic buff and nothing else.

My own preference is for us to get Magic Accuracy Bonus traits. This would boost our casting performance with ele staves enough so that our nukes are worth the bother and our debuffs aren't inexplicably weaker than those of someone subbing WHM at times, while also making us able to land spells at all on the enemy when we're using swords or daggers. It'd even make RDM a useful sub, if we gained one or two at sub levels. -- Pteryx

[Murphie]

Re: Refresh II

It could be done that way, but I was thinking an always-on job trait. It's not as though we'd melee frequently even with it being there constantly, since getting the bonuses from staves is such a big deal.

See, I worry that for a Job Trait that is a bit (and by "a bit" I mean "way") too powerful. Unless jobs that subbed it could also benefit (NIN/RDM, BLU/RDM, PLD/RDM?)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Refresh II

The Spell to replace elmental staves for the sake of using a sword would probably end up doing something SE doesn't want.

Devaluing the level 51 staves. SE are real sticklers about diminishing the value of various gear. Its one of the things that separates FFXI from the pack, when new content is released, it doesn't mean the old content is obseleted. Meanwhile you have other MMOs out there where... oops... all that good shit you worked toward during EXP and in endgame is obselete and newer, more awesome gear has been released.

Additionally, were this a trait applied to existing enspells, anyone that could viably sub RDM would to take advantage, which would be BLM, SCH and even BRD or COR.

[Coinspinner]

Re: Refresh II

Why should RDM get such an ability? What benefit does it bring to the PT other than "just because?"

Its not the benefit of damage, RDMs melee DoT is absolute piss compared to thier DoT via nukes.

It has less to do with damage, it has to do with RDMs wanting to be able to swing their weapons in exp/meripo or swing more in general. Shoot, if it comes to "what does X job having Y ability bring to the party" then there are many many abilities that are on the "wrong" job. It's never been a concern before.

If it were a subable ability then it'd still benefit PLD and NIN sometimes as they do occasionally sub RDM for tanking.

[Murphie]

Re: Refresh II

It has nothing to do with damage, it has to do with some RDMs wanting to be able to swing their weapons in exp/meripo or swing more in general.

Fixed for accuracy.

[Coinspinner]

Re: Refresh II

Does anybody seriously want to cast/cancel Enspells while casting enfeebles?

Fixed for accuracy.

Yeah, sorry.

Edit:

If it's a trait then you shouldn't be swinging full speed while casting. If it's a JA, then it could be like Defender, same recast as it's duration but carrying some kind of penalty. Or make a pair of abilities, stance-like, each with different advantages and disadvantages.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Refresh II

It has less to do with damage, it has to do with RDMs wanting to be able to swing their weapons in exp/meripo or swing more in general. Shoot, if it comes to "what does X job having Y ability bring to the party" then there are many many abilities that are on the "wrong" job. It's never been a concern before.

Um... what?

The abilities one brings to a group are all that matters in this game, building a balanced PT or alliance is what we often strive to do. Invites aren't incidental, you get invites because you have something a PT needs and could benefit from.

Melee boils down to bringing the damage, but its also not just because swinging weapons looks cool. We invite melees to do damage, amoung some other elements. I don't just shoot ammo on RNG, I sometimes bring enfeebling elements to the table, as well as crowd control elements and the ability to search out targets on the map.

Just as an example, I did Promyvion Holla today with a group. I'm there as a DD, but I also gave some thought to the abilities of our group. BLM, WHM, BLU, RNG, WAR, BST. I tell the BST to use his Tiger for the possible chance of getting its AoE Paralyze off. BLM, WHM, BLU and RNG can work together to bring a mob's VIT and DEF down through their spells, ammo and skills.

Before getting there, its was the BST and I leading the group through the zone. Promy maps are difficult to get, so abilities like Wide Scan are also of importance.

So what are these "many" abilities that are on the "wrong" job? Humor me.

[MrMageo]

Re: Refresh II

I'd just like to say i love RDM the way it is i can go /blm, /whm, /drk ,/pld, /blu, /nin, /dnc and effectivley change my role in any given instance, while retaining my RDM spell list. A job that can solo EP mobs with out blinking or NM's (just soloed Kruetzet on wednesday using kite/nuke /nin) seems to be working correctly. The sole matter in how RDM is played is in the players hands. If you want to melee there is tons of gear that you can get that will support you SH, WT, Morigans imo is the gravey if you can get it. Personally when i melee in a party colbri or non-colbri i prefer /dnc. I dont have any of the good melee gear yet slowly building towards it have about 20 acc and 30 atk atm. I take /dnc for its slight evaision and acc boosts. As well as its TP based party support, a propper combination of using your rdm and dnc abilities make you a great main heal on the front line. It takes perseverance and dedication, as well as awareness an knowledge to be able to melee as a RDM but it can be done. The numbers will never be as big but proper set ups can have you parsing near to or on par with a nin. Personally without SH atm and a few other treats i hit about 70-75%, 75-80% with food and brd songs.

To offer up one of our trade mark abilities is blasphamy(sp.) Refresh to another job (thats as far as i delve into that horedous coment). We have the highest enfeebling/enhancing in the game we are party support first and foremost wether its bogging down a mob with enfeebles or buffing members with refresh and haste. it also takes knowledge when to buff these players with these spells for instance if your sam's are pulling hate to much from other melees dont haste them, if the ninja thf is having trouble keeping up hate level for a sata haste them. Our job is situational as are our spells, its not required to spam refresh/haste on every party member knowing what needs it and when is what makes you a good rdm and cuts down on the amount of work you do.

The majority of rdm's i know complain about the workload because they spam these spells to everyone, i know because i used to do it, geting 20K/hr while watching a movie and hiting macros was super easy. But i wanted more so i went out and found how i could get more, learning the ins and outs of your job and spells is what makes you a good rdm not keeping a haste/refresh cycle on 6 ppl 3 of which may not need either.

As for /DNC if you wish to melee this is the job i recomend, you get status waltz curing waltz, aspir/drain samba, curaga, "dia" steps, evade- step all of which can help your party in a huge way with out the use of MP ill show you what i do and i found this is the most effective way.

First off analyze the situation who needs refresh who needs haste as these will be the primary spells you are casting. often time you will need to haste 2-3 people and refresh only yourself. Find a haste cycle you are comfortable with and that can get the spells out the quickest.

to be effective in this way you must break rdm/dnc as if it were 2 seperate jobs

step1
- Engage mob with sword or dagger and start building TP
(note if you happen to be with a sam ask if he will donate some tp to you)
- Here you will be using your cure spells to maintain the parties health
- use aspir samba if the mob permits or drain samba
- store up about 200 TP

Step 2
- now start using TP to cure the party and assit it in anyway
- use steps to enfeeble it
- use aspir samba or drain samba depending on situation
- when you have a decent supply of MP bust off your WS and start at step one

some notes to remember

You are not here to deal damage, dont become upset if you hit for low number TP is TP

MP > TP this cant be stressed enough MP is by far more important than TP if you are low on MP step back and rest or convert.

BRD songs, do not bother getting ballad acc and haste songs are much more important to you

Joyeuse or a fast dagger is the best choice

You are not a backline mage keep your staves in your pocket

Haste/Refresh are to be cast when the time permits not imeadietly following drop.
Wait until mob is nearly dead or between a pullto recast them the loss of haste for 10's will not hinder the parties success.

This is the way i merit now, i refused to level whm high enough to get erase for the reason of not being a backline bitch. Instead i now have a frontline erase. Again this job combo is not for everyone it is alot of work and timing knowing when to use MP and not TP. It also dosent hurt to make some SAM friends to help build your TP.

If your interested in the amount of xp/hr i get, well its not too bad between 15-20K usually depending on the DD setup and if its a BRD or COR.

Back on topic now the only thing SE needs to do spell wise is give us teir 2 enspells that hit for 30-40 damage and endark and enlight. Now being greedy i wouldnt mind having en-drain/en-aspir or en-(TP) Drain and maybe the ability to strap elestaves to the range slot (all jobs of course) come on everyone wants
something new.

[Luna]

Re: Refresh II

Give SCH refresh and its a deal

[MrMageo]

Re: Refresh II

I just went back through this Topic and all i can say is wow. I think it is halarious that every post involving some dialouge with rdm melee turns into an absolute flame fest about it.

1. RDM CAN MELEE
Properly equipped RDM's Can melee effectivley.(period)

The debate on RDM MELEE VS BACKLINE will never die it seems this is what topic 39457 give or take 10K

I have been around the block a few times to know how red mage melee works

1. RDM MELEE is not RDM DD

RDM can effectivley melee it is not a DD comparing it to a DD is fruitless RDM dont melee to be DD and shouldnt. A RDM preforms melee by doing small numbers over a period of time we are endurance jobs not sprinters. Understanding this is the first and foremost to having any viable conception into melee. There is 1 job we may catch in a parse and that is PLD. If you look at the stats of the 2 jobs at lvl 75 the diference between melee attributes is not that different. PLD is not a DD job either, thus making for a just comparison. The Enspells are there to provide us with aditional DoT not make us into a high damaging job. Spike spells are another DoT spell that assists in our DoT and unfourtunatly are often forgotten. The most important thing to understand about meleeing as a RDM is your are assisting party damage outside big numbers. You may not be able to on the first couple mobs but on later ones opening a dark/light SC for a heavy DD can save a chain.

2. FEEDING TP

This is just the communitys bread and butter retort to lolrdm meele, and subsequently has no acctual bearing what so ever. BLU is the worst job for mob TP gain, however it does back it up with damage thats besides the point. Having the ability to cure a TP move or dispel it nulifys that move and nulifys that point.

3. BACKLINE RDM

RDM is not a backline job. It can preform from the backline but the fact we havent got any worth while clear mind, no real MP friendly Curing, insuficent NUKE dmg - MP cost. The only spells it seems which are MP efficent to cast are Haste/Refresh and Enfeebles. All of which can be cast anywhere on the battle field. The ele-stave canundrem is easily fixed when you reach 75, enfeebling merits. The little guys give you 16 more points to enfeebling, i am currently 2/8 and require no staves to stick enfeebles on Colbri (except gravity), Sky Mobs or many NM's. Also the spell accuracy is great or helping this as well i have 1 in each of ice/wind and already notice a difference. The fact that we get fast cast traits and enhancements from our AF increases the point we do not belong solely on the back line.

4. FAST CAST

This job trait allows us to get our spells off quickly, properly used we can almost cast at a chainspell like rate. This is usefull for firing off haste/refresh/cure between sword swings. Another ACE in the hole for a RDM melee player.

5. WHEN TO/WHEN NOT TO.

You can melee anytime you feel like it, you can back line anytime you feel like it, hell you can even stand between the mob and the back line with a weapon out if you feel like it. The thing is you need to know how to do it effectivley. 51-75 will be hard because of the reliance on elemental staves. You can still do it but you will not gain any effective number of TP to sc with. @75 when you begin to merit and unlock RDM's true power you will be able to melee more effectivley solo and in a party.

6. CONVERT

Really our bread and butter in terms of job defining abilities goes. This allows you to effectivley restore your MP without resting. Crazy they would give this to a "backline" job. Once you get a few merits into it you will further become a melee capable mage. currently i have 3/3 merits (only using 3 acc more important) i get an additional 900ish MP every 9 minutes. For front lining RDM's this is more than adequate for preforming your duties without needing to knee.(unless you are burning to much MP curing then you should look at your pt setup). For backliners this makes you able to cast nigh on forever. However it is this type of play that has led rdm to be pigeonholed to the backline.

I am not pulling for either side in this debate nor will i ever, its all personal preference and ability. In order to be a RDM melee it requires a substantial amount of work more so than "the load" you handle on the back line. The truth is you need to know what you are doing, and how to do it. Also keep in mind you will be quickly removed from the front line (including by me) if you cant handle your mage duties as well as melee. There is no set place for a RDM to party from. a good rdm knows how to maximize his/her potential in all aspects of the job including melee. With the exception of the /whm pigeonhole RDM's have lost the ability to melee themselves, opting for the easy ride to 75 and a quick 20K to merits(i know i was one of them). Once you take it upon yourself to further your abilities and work in the art of RDM melee can you be considered an acceptable melee mage.

Now im going to copy and paste this save it to a file and resuse it next week when the next rdm melee post comes up.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Refresh II

No disagreement that RDM can melee. But...

There is 1 job we may catch in a parse and that is NIN.

lol? (I'll let the NIN players handle this.)

3. BACKLINE RDM

RDM is not a backline job.

It can be, though, just like it can be a front line job. I'm certainly not going to be swinging a sword at, say, Faust, no matter what gears I have.

RDM players, even the melee-mad ones, should acknowledge there are times when staying in the back really is the best way to help one's party/alliance.

5. WHEN TO/WHEN NOT TO.

You can melee anytime you feel like it,

Next time I go through the jungles and see RDMs getting slept by Dream Flower instead of waking up sleeping people, or become an MP sponge from Bomb Toss because they want to play melee, I'm going to blame you.

Seriously, melee only when it makes sense (and when one has an effective setup for it), not because one has an itch to stab something.

* * *

Fun exercise: build a Lv.65 RDM with full mage and melee gear. From that, create gear sets to effectively enfeeb, buff, MB, and melee. Must have utility items: RR, Echo Drops, Silent Oil, Prism Powder, and one transportation item (e.g. Warp Cudgel). Must have room for food.

The limit is 60 inventory space. Pick one race.

Go go go!