Refresh II

[Coinspinner]

Re: Refresh II

Why couldn't SE have simply just implemented my favorite job ever?[/SPOILER]

Cuz BLMs would cry rivers.

[Malacite]

Re: Refresh II

Ts :p
______________________________

RDM in pre-burn parties still don't have time for melee Malacite.

True. However my point was that you'd see RDM putting their intended skills (enfeebling) to more use instead of just Refresh/Haste/Cure/Repeat.

[Murphie]

Re: Refresh II

I'd consider Refresh to be an intended skill. I'm not trying to be pedantic, but honestly, the difference between using one kind of backline magic (enfeebling) and another (healing or enhancing) is pretty negligible. You're still in a casting position only, which doesn't seem to be the complaint some RDMs are having.

Plus, I use enfeebling magic in meripo.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Refresh II

stuff about EXP

Two words: non sequitur.

Also remember you're talking to somebody who almost exclusively soloed his first almost 30 levels now (~1k exp t30). Obviously, I care little for either fast EXP, or most parties. I did form a party myself once, for practice, and it was okay. Everybody was satisfied, and, yes, I did swing my Sword quite a few times. By letting the White Mage melee as well (we agreed to take turns at healing and meleeing, and we were obviously in a Signet area), we were even able to pull off a Fusion Skillchain by doing Burning Blade -> Seraph Strike. It took a little time to pull off, but it was fun when we did. This was all the while Enfeebling the mob and taking turns with the White Mage in Curing. ^_^ That was some time ago, and that White Mage and I are close friends now. But, anyway, I digress.

So, please, don't tell me to go ahead and do this and this and that, because I have. I know I'm not even level 30 (yet), but refusing to exclusively backline hasn't bothered me at all.

All I'm trying to do on here is avoid the horror stories I've heard about Red Mage later in the game (it has also occasionally been the cause behind me taking my training purposefully slow).

And quit trying to derail all of my arguments, as well.

Oh, and @ Malacite: screw your Mystic Knight, I want my Enspell improvement!

[Coinspinner]

Re: Refresh II

So has the idea of a JA or Trait that lets one swing while casting been dismissed yet?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Refresh II

I don't entirely agree with you BBQ. Mainly on the matter of burn parties and it being up to us and not SE. You're partly right there in that it's largely the community's fault for RDM getting pigeon-holed into the pink make role. However, if traditional parties where you need a RDM to cripple an otherwise too powerful enemy (SC + MB) actually gave EXP that was at least comparable to burns, well then I guarantee you'd see a lot less RDM in the self-denigrating spamfest that is TP burns.

I never said it was the community's fault. Its the fault of RDMs for letting thier role get into such a postion. Refresh is a powerful and tempting ability to abuse for both sides. Back when I still had a desire to level RDM, I was usually /BLM and only went /WHM as needed. I didn't object to /WHM, I just requested notification that I was main healing before I got to camp. Its a little irritating to come all the way to camp and then be informed you're main heal, you know. Much more irrtating than knowing in advance that was your role.

We pulled IT++ mobs back then, when I was /BLM, I did a little bit of everything on the back line and there was no time for melee at all. Dia, Paralyze, Slow, Blind, Gravity, Curing and Regenning as as needed, nuking to magic burst all while maintaining Haste and Refresh cycles. There was barely time to make room for melee and that's largely why we used staves and viewed the melee RDM as a breed of idiot.

You want to say SCH is a subsitute RDM? My ass it is, we don't really do what RDMs do. SCH shifts almost strictly back and forth between WHM and BLM roles at this point in its life, which is pretty much the problem RDM once had. Sure, I can sub RDM or WHM and enfeeble, but its really just better to focus either on the BLM role or the WHM/enhancing, to adapt to the situation. If a RDM isn't there, I will make the effort to enfeeble, but the nuking or healing comes first. I don't cry like a school girl when a skinned knee when I do have to heal. I just take the jobs present design as is, knowing it will change in time and don't complain about it.

One might think BRD has it better than RDM, but its getting changes because its finally been realized its design is counter-productive to how jobs are invited and PTs are formed around it. RDM has no such issue, they'll work well with anyone. You guys think Refreshga would be a godsend, but its not that simple for BRD. BRDs would shun PLD, DRK and BLU from PTs because they weren't compatible with thier skills while NINs and other melees totally were. RDM could support either tank without sacrifice to other jobs or its role, so SE is fixing this issue as it relates to BRD.

For COR, the issue is clearly more difficult to address since its buffs are all on a shared recast timer, but BRD's design has always had a major impact in how a PT was built, it was hard to get a optimal buff cycle with a AoE buffer and frontline MP users (here's anothe reason why RDM melee is prohibited), so the update to BRD - whenever that happens, will likely reinvent the job and how PTs are formed around it. COR's similar AoE issues - if they're addressed at all - need a more specialized solution than the one BRD is getting. Its gonna take some time given how Phantom Roll works. Separating the recast timers for Phantom Rolls would overpower the job, so its not an option, I'd think.

Also remember you're talking to somebody who almost exclusively soloed his first almost 30 levels now (~1k exp t30). Obviously, I care little for either fast EXP, or most parties. I did form a party myself once, for practice, and it was okay. Everybody was satisfied, and, yes, I did swing my Sword quite a few times. By letting the White Mage melee as well (we agreed to take turns at healing and meleeing, and we were obviously in a Signet area), we were even able to pull off a Fusion Skillchain by doing Burning Blade -> Seraph Strike. It took a little time to pull off, but it was fun when we did.

Solo =/= PT experience. You don't even have Haste or Refresh yet and no comprehension of how that affects the workload of the job. When its just you, its simple to manage that and melee. But try it in a PT when you have those abilities (and staves available) and you will see that your melee DoT is competely overshadowed by your ability to nuke or MB.

I've soloed plenty of jobs, but I only do so if I'm familar with the dynamics behind it.

So has the idea of a JA or Trait that lets one swing while casting been dismissed yet?

PLD deserves such a trait far more than RDM does.

[Coinspinner]

Re: Refresh II

PLD deserves such a trait far more than RDM does.

Deserves? I don't know deserves. But I don't see PLD benefiting from it as much as RDM or NIN. Or possibly even DRK.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Refresh II

Solo =/= PT experience. You don't even have Haste or Refresh yet and no comprehension of how that affects the workload of the job. When its just you, its simple to manage that and melee. But try it in a PT when you have those abilities (and staves available) and you will see that your melee DoT is competely overshadowed by your ability to nuke or MB.

I know about this already, which is why I've been suggesting a bunch of changes to help reduce our workload, staff dependence, and so on, throughout this entire thread.

[Murphie]

Re: Refresh II

Why reduce our workload? We're just busy enough, IMO. Part of the challenge of playing RDM is keeping all of your various balls in the air without dropping any.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Refresh II

Deserves? I don't know deserves. But I don't see PLD benefiting from it as much as RDM or NIN. Or possibly even DRK.

DoT is an essential part of tanking, oft overlooked by those who don't know the nuances behind it. For WAR, they can only tank through raw damage and other enmity spikes. This is also a major part of NIN tanking, though the enfeebles and elemental wheel also play a role.

PLDs often marginalize thier ability to DD and the fact they have spells that take a bit longer than the Ni spell line to get off, being able to continue DoT in the process of casting would be an asset.

Why should RDM get such an ability? What benefit does it bring to the PT other than "just because?"

Its not the benefit of damage, RDMs melee DoT is absolute piss compared to thier DoT via nukes.

[Lmnop]

Re: Refresh II

RDM in pre-burn parties still don't have time for melee Malacite.

My brother did just fine 'til 50. In levels where DRGs and SAMs were whipping out 2-300 damage WSs, he was doing RLB (damn right, /drk) for ~200ish, contributing a bit higher DPS than a PLD (that's around half what real DDs do), landing all his enfeebles, casting Regen as needed, helping with cures, keeping up hastes, keeping up refreshes. Oh, and barely ever needed to rest. Maybe other people would find more stuff to do with their mp and make the party even smoother (Icemage, no doubt), but my brother hit his stride just fine and contributed valiantly to parties in every way possible.

After 50, parties wanted him main healing more and more, and staves for enfeebles was just too nice. And all the primary DDs were getting good WSs, finally. But still... pre-burn? A good RDM can still contribute. It's just so hard that the only people who give it a shot don't know anything about the community they're in.

--------------------

Since dinging WAR 75, the only things I've learned are
-nuances of the merit system
-where to go in Sky
-what to expect from X merit camps

I didn't learn anything new about how to cope with my job. I already knew I'd end up voking three times as often as other WARs, I already knew what to expect of the BRDs, I already knew how hate would end up.

Granted, WAR is a pretty easy job, and I do think there's something to experiencing things first hand... but it's not impossible to learn the same things via the experiences of others. This collective soul we call society is a useful, albeit slow method of understanding things...

I also still feel I could function decently with a RDM 75 given a few days just to get used to where my macros are. My RDM is only level 3 yet I'm certain I know (or would very quickly learn) everything I need to know.

Also, YM, you missed the Straw man (men? they're everywhere).

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Refresh II

Its not the benefit of damage, RDMs melee DoT is absolute piss compared to thier DoT via nukes.

First off, Red Mage melee DoT is what we're hoping to be fixed. It's really a simple three step process:

1. Make meleeing possible (reduce busy-ness and resists; "Enstaff" Enspells)
2. Make meleeing viable (DEX:Accuracy ratio improvement for 1-Handed weapons, for example)
3. Make meleeing desirable (how does it benefit the party? Reducing the number of Enhancing Magic Skill levels it takes up damage from Enspells might be a good option from a direct-damage perspective, not to mention Enspell damage doesn't give TP)

Second off, I'm kind of tired of hearing the same old anti-Red Mage song from you, 'kitten.

Also, YM, you missed the Straw man (men? they're everywhere).

Yeah, I just noticed: I'm not that good at spotting Straw Men.

[Murphie]

Re: Refresh II

My brother did just fine 'til 50. In levels where DRGs and SAMs were whipping out 2-300 damage WSs, he was doing RLB (damn right, /drk) for ~200ish, contributing a bit higher DPS than a PLD (that's around half what real DDs do), landing all his enfeebles, casting Regen as needed, helping with cures, keeping up hastes, keeping up refreshes. Oh, and barely ever needed to rest. Maybe other people would find more stuff to do with their mp and make the party even smoother (Icemage, no doubt), but my brother hit his stride just fine and contributed valiantly to parties in every way possible.

After 50, parties wanted him main healing more and more, and staves for enfeebles was just too nice. And all the primary DDs were getting good WSs, finally. But still... pre-burn? A good RDM can still contribute. It's just so hard that the only people who give it a shot don't know anything about the community they're in.

I should have been more specific. Pre-Burn Parties post-staves. Sure, even your average RDM can find time for melee prior to that, but after 50ish? Good luck in most party setups.

[Malacite]

Re: Refresh II

Spellblade > Enspell. SE's just lazy


And it is the community's fault BBQ, even if it falls mostly on the shoulders of the RDM's themselves. As for the melee while casting ability, PLD doesn't need it so much, and while it would be nice for DRK, I really do think it makes more sense for RDM to have it, especially if it can be subbed.

[Murphie]

Re: Refresh II

1. Make meleeing possible (reduce busy-ness and resists; "Enstaff" Enspells)

Reduce busyness how? What is RDM losing/giving up in order to make time for melee? How do you decide what to give up without fundamentally changing the job for the thousands of RDMs who enjoy back line casting?

2. Make meleeing viable (DEX:Accuracy ratio improvement for 1-Handed weapons, for example)

How? Something more than "Make it happen" would be helpful here.

3. Make meleeing desirable (how does it benefit the party? Reducing the number of Enhancing Magic Skill levels it takes up damage from Enspells might be a good option from a direct-damage perspective, not to mention Enspell damage doesn't give TP)

It's not that hard to hit the enspell cap. I'm not sure what you're getting at with this statement.

As I said before, I have yet to see a workable solution.