The Decline of the RDM

[Callisto]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

EXP IS NOT THE MAIN PART OF THE GAME.

So it's not a decline of skilled Rdms, it's the insistance that EXP pts are an important part of this game and a diva complex where *you* want to be the sole reason the party succeeds.

Thank you, that's what I've been saying all along. You can't say there's just a 'decline in skill' specific to RDM, because really when it comes to XP it's like that for all jobs as a byproduct of ToAU camps...however some of the people who are lazy in XP or prefer TP burn for their form of merits still shine above others when it comes to real content.

I know several RDMs who main heal for all of their XP just because it's easy and they can do it while watching TV. These same RDMs are also some of the few ones I'd trust to land a Stun, Bind, or Gravity at a critical time in a big fight.

I am not all about DNC i am looking at dancer, to me sch looks like shit on paper but ill be checking it as well, thats what i do i like to know what my job can do when where why and how.

I really have been abstaining from calling you out on things, but that right there shows you don't know a thing about taking RDM into a real event. On paper SCH looks absolutely fantastic for XP, Limbus, Sea gods, HNM, kited fights, and just about absolutely anything that doesn't specifically need Stun, Sleepga, or status cures.

Its funny to see you people knock players like myself, like wfbbq did to hyrist in hs Hybrid rdm forum, because we are trying something new that may threaten the way you play your job it must be wrong.

That's cute, but really you haven't read much of our RDM forums or you'd know that you're talking to the wrong crowd(see numerous threads on maximising RDM DD output and out-there subjobs). Most of us play RDM the correct way, which is every way possible depending on the situation. Sometimes the best thing for the group you're in will be you having -na spells and AoE cures. Sometimes you need Sleepga. Sometimes you need Stun, and sometimes you need supplemental DD.

The RDMs on these forums are some of the most knowledgeable out of any I've interacted with, if they knock something you suggest, in all likelihood it's because you're probably wrong, and they know b/c they've tried it. I myself will tell you that RDM/THF is balls for anything in XP, I know because I've tested it, along with /RNG. If you want a pulling sub use something that can actually beat people to claims while retaining some sort of useful MP/Stat bonuses, damage mitigation ability, and utility spells, like /DRK or /PLD.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

Glued, your problem is that you want to force the issue of how you want to play RDM an EXP PT.

That melee you invited to PT is competing with hordes of other melee and that's not accounting for his time to play and real life situation. He might have kids, might have to work 40 or more hours a week, he might have a couple hours to play between classes in college. It could be anything.

What it boils down to for most players is getting that EXP quickly and effectively so they can not only move on to other fun things in the game, but spend less time playing the game and attending to RL things as well. They don't want the game to tie them down.

That is why things are the way the are. That is why RDM is invited to do what it does. There are plenty of other instances in the game to play how you want, but how you play in EXP is always going to have limits and you should strive to make things as easy as you can on everyone.

But seeing how hard-headed you're being, you're going to do it the hard way.

Fine, build your own PTs then. You may find people unwilling to go along with you. See above again to see why.

[Mhurron]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

On paper SCH looks absolutely fantastic for XP, Limbus, Sea gods, HNM, kited fights, and just about absolutely anything that doesn't specifically need Stun or Sleepga.

Oh great, another damn subjob to level.

[Ziero]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

Oh great, another damn subjob to level.

I know your pain, I'm honestly starting to worry that Dnc may have a use as a sub for my melee jobs myself =(

[Callisto]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

Oh great, another damn subjob to level.

I'm having a hell of a time with it too, longest it's ever taken me to get a job to 20.

Luckily my LS picked up a couple of more RDMs recently so I may be able to sneak out of some events to work on SCH sub in the next week or two.

And for OWTFBK: Walked into Sky around 10pm last night and nabbed another SC + Zip with no competition lol, is Sky actually busy on your server?

[Sabaron]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

Soloing != Avesta.

RDM Soloing isn't about doing impossible things. It's about doing things that other players would have to duo or rest frequently. Farming higher level mobs for things like coffer keys and doing some quest NMs is always fun. I had fun trioing Kamlanaut with a 75NIN and a 65RDM (She needed it) as a RDM Backline DD. I've tanked Celestial Avatars and I've done very well soloing them though I haven't yet mastered actually finishing them off--such takes practice. I've also pulled in XP/Meripo as "Pink Mage" at the Mook/Puk/Skoffin camp (which is barrels of fun).

Also, you don't generally "curebot all the way to 75"--sometimes you're going to be invited to do something else like Refresh/Support with another healer like a SMN or WHM--in many of these instances, subbing BLM and doing some moderated nuking is part of the XP job. However, you will find that these XP combinations are sub-optimal with an XP rate in the 5-10kph range. In the 20-30kph parties you'll be Pink Mage...Sorry...that's the set up and it works.

How can a discussion of RDM's roles not involve sub job choice? Red Mage's party role revolves around the sub job you choose. Sure you can melee as /WHM, but why not choose /BLU? It's a better choice for the role you're playing. There are only two things that change when you change roles--those things are sub-job and gear. Would you like to discuss gear instead?

/SCH has limited usefulness for a RDM. The basic function of /SCH is to give yourself B skill in Dark Magic for Bio/Drain/Aspir. It also gives access to Regen II, and reduces overall MP costs. We don't really need Aspir in most cases, so another sub will usually be the choice. WHM, however, can really get some mileage out of the /SCH sub.

[Callisto]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

Sure you can melee as /WHM, but why not choose /BLU?

Because learning BLU spells is the rough equivalent of running your genitals through a cheese grater.

It's at a peak where it looks down on other jobs and says "I AM A PRINCESS! WHERE'S MY TABLE DANCE?"

Thanks Spinn, that's going in my search comment from now on when I flag up!

[Callisto]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

/SCH has limited usefulness for a RDM. The basic function of /SCH is to give yourself B skill in Dark Magic for Bio/Drain/Aspir. It also gives access to Regen II, and reduces overall MP costs. We don't really need Aspir in most cases, so another sub will usually be the choice. WHM, however, can really get some mileage out of the /SCH sub.

It also gives a nice boost to Elemental Magic, with the other normal boosts available to RDM you can hit 300+ skill, it makes a pretty big difference, and I believe it gets slightly more MP than /BLM, but I'm not high enough on SCH to compare them yet. You're right that most subs will see more use, but the fights that /SCH would be good for it'd likely be better than other options(mostly Sea fights off the top of my head, Jailer of Temperance would be a huge example, Ix'Aerns, most Limbus zones, but also many types of fights that you might do with low #'s, such as Gration, the Ugly Pendant NM, Faust, and Despot.

Edit: Whoops, looks like automerge is disabled, is there a manual way to do it?

[Truece]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

... and I believe it gets slightly more MP than /BLM, but I'm not high enough on SCH to compare them yet.

That's what I thought, too. Especially since /SCH has Max MP Up traits... However, /BLM gives a greater MP boost than /SCH. The difference was around 30 MP at level 75.

[Callisto]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

Thanks Truece, have you gotten a chance to play with it extensively yet?

If so, what have you used it for and how'd it go?

[Truece]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

It is hands-down THE best subjob for WHM. I won't sub anything else unless I'm doing teleports or need warp for some other reason. I've said in another thread that /SMN gives 20 MP/min via Auto-refresh. With /SCH, so long as I can aspir once per minute for more than 20 MP (which was very common for me on Dynamis mobs), then /SMN loses its appeal.

As for RDM, I used it in one PT and I didn't have a very fun experience, primarily 'cause they had me pulling and I didn't have a chance to really explore what /SCH had to offer. I think that if I'm not main-healer and not puller, it would be great. I absolutely LOVE having decent aspirs and Regen II is great (so long as the main healer doesn't cure over it). Plus with Light Arts up, I can alternate refresh & haste with only a 1-2 sec delay (normally it was 6 secs left on recast, iirc).

I didn't really see a great opportunity for any of the strategems, though. Since I wasn't nuking, I was only really using MP-intensive spells once every 30 mins, and even then Penury doesn't help a whole lot IF you've gotta buff the whole PT. Then again, 50% saved is 50% saved, so if I could just remember to use it, I'm sure it would make my MP pool seem that much bigger.

I haven't given up hope, however and would love to try it again. The problem is that I've been doing lots of campaign lately, where I tend to play solo, or in a small PT where normal PT dynamics seem to be tossed out the window. /BLU for the defense and vorpal blade has been amazing (it's fun watching a boss NM use an AoE move and seeing everyone around me fall to the ground, when I didn't take a point of damage through stoneskin & cocoon & phalanx ).

The next time I get in a merit PT or go to sky, I'll try /SCH (and let the PT know that I want to explore the job combo a bit more deeply) and report my findings back here.

[Gobo]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

All available Fast Cast Gear+Celerity/Alacrity is probably the best shit-hit-the-fan combination. With all that you cast at ~22%. Its limited, good for really fast emergency cures, sleeps, SS if you've pulled hate and your's in down, etc.. Really haven't gotten too much of a chance to try it out, since I hardly play anymore during the weekdays and only for a few hours on the Weekends.

[Truece]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

All available Fast Cast Gear+Celerity/Alacrity is probably the best shit-hit-the-fan combination. With all that you cast at ~22%. Its limited, good for really fast emergency cures, sleeps, SS if you've pulled hate and your's in down, etc.. Really haven't gotten too much of a chance to try it out, since I hardly play anymore during the weekdays and only for a few hours on the Weekends.

That may be, but I find that in a pinch, I don't have a cool enough head to activate the strategem and then cast the spell. Until I get used to that, I find that I'm faster with the spells if I just cast them without using a job ability.

If things are looking that bad and I need spellcasting speed, I'll just chainspell anyways.

[Icemage]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

Alacrity sucks unless you've got some specific reason to want faster casting speed at a predetermined time (claiming NMs) or just want to boost a super-long casting spell (Teleports).

It's pointless to use Alacrity on something like Cures; you'll lose more time activating the ability than you will save on the spell.

I'll echo what Truece has said though; RDM/SCH is pretty meh. Regen II, some MP, improved Drain/Aspir, slightly more accurate nukes, and sometimes a cost savings on spells if you happen to have the right Arts active at the time. It's not that these things are bad... they're good. It's just not as generally useful as other, more specialized subjobs for Red Mage. RDM/WHM is better at healing. RDM/BLM is better at nuking and has more utility spells to draw on. There's not too many occasions where you need to split the difference.

WHM/SCH, on the other hand, is a match made in heaven. Unbelievably good subjob for WHM.


Icemage

[arkaine23]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

Regarding /SCH: RDM/SCH is a better nuker than RDM/BLM. Better mp efficiency, lower recasts on stuff like Bind/Gravity, much more accurate nuking to the point of downgrading skill gear for more INT/MAB. Reliable Drain/Aspir. You can stay in dark Arts most of the time if solo, and the reverse if in a party. The only real downsides are the lack of Sleepga, ES, and Warp/Escape.... really is just ES and Sleepga. Arts > Conserve MP by itself to say nothing of dropping a tier 3 nuke every 4 minutes for ~60mp. The thing about /SCH is being in a situation where you can stay in one Art 90+% of the time and don't need to flip back and forth a lot.

General thread topic: RDM has more roles than ever these days. Sure 97% of the time we're expected to play just one of them. But we can tank HNM. We can tank xp in some level ranges. We can play massive support via /BRD /COR or /DNC. We can melee DD in certain level ranges when free of our healing role. We can magical DD with /SCH. We can enable an alliance to zerg HNMs. And we can mix and blend in between these roles fairly well, always having our enfeebling, light nuking, light melee, curing, enhancing covered from main-job spells/abilities.

If you don't like being a dedicated healer/haster/refresher with enfeebles you can build your own parties, ask party setups and be selective before joining a pickup, or go solo. I capped merits and xp for RDM so you can bet that I never play it as a merit party healer.