The Decline of the RDM

[Olorin401]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

My main point is that XP is only XP, it's not the game. Get out of XP parties and go experience some real content as a RDM, then after you do if you still feel that you weren't used properly come back and bitch then, but until you've completed expansions, fought Dynamis/Limbus bosses, Sky and Sea gods, and maybe a few HNMs as RDM, stfu about RDM being limited or in decline.

If anything, RDM right now is underused in endgame because everyone is levelling BRD and BLM lately!

[Callisto]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

If anything, RDM right now is underused in endgame because everyone is levelling BRD and BLM lately!

Look who's talking!

[Yellow Mage]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

Really, you'd think a Mage would have a Staff skill of something.

Red Mage != Mage

I think that's what this thread is all about.

[Glued]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

RDM = whatever it needs to be thats what this thread is about

[Mhurron]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

If anything, RDM right now is underused in endgame because everyone is levelling BRD and BLM lately!

And I wish they'd stop so I wouldn't have people camping in the same spots I want to camp at.

Red Mage != Mage

I think that's what this thread is all about.

I think you'll find Red Mage is indeed a Mage.

[Mhurron]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

RDM = whatever it needs to be thats what this thread is about

You mean as long as being a Main healer isn't what's needed.

[Karinya]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

Now tell us that people used RDM/BST circa 2003 to solo Very Toughs or that RDM/DRG is the latest in DD combinations.

Actually... I know someone that solos RDM/BST. He's over 60 with it. I'm not sure if soloing is his entire exp source, but he definitely kills things solo. (Maybe not VT though, I haven't asked or watched.)

RDM/DRG is still junk, though. You just can't build a primary DD on B skill with a one-handed weapon and no main-job DD traits. Combining two real melee jobs - DRG/SAM or /WAR, SAM/WAR or /THF, MNK/WAR, etc. - will blow RDM/anything out of the water without hardly trying. Even /NINs will outdamage RDM if their main job has A skill in a high-damage weapon.

Seriously - try a real DD melee job. You'll never be impressed by your RDM melee damage output again. (You *will* realize RDM's real strengths, that your other jobs so conspicuously lack. RDM is many things; high damage output is almost the only thing it *isn't*.)

No other mage job gets two B class weapons.

Scholar doesn't even get *one*.


As far as the Pink Mage thing goes - it's based partly on a drive to reduce the number of non-DDs to the minimum possible to kill as fast as possible, because in the super-abundant camps of TAU, you're unlikely to run out of mobs the way you could at old camps; and partly on the fact that your party takes very little damage because you're fighting pathetic wimps that can hardly hit a DD hard enough to have them notice (which means you can remove the tank, too).

I personally think that the wimp-slaughtering party style needs to be a little less disproportionately rewarded, exp/hr wise, but as long as the exploit is there, players will use it, and jobs that don't fit into that party style - like WHM, BLM, and PLD - will suffer; and jobs whose roles are distorted in that party style - like RDM - will play half their job. At least BLMs can manaburn - there's a reason WHM and PLD show up in Besieged and Campaign so much. It's a form of exp that doesn't rely on someone else inviting you to it.

Tougher mobs are already out there, but until SE adjusts exp values to make it worth players' while to fight them, they'll just keep beating up the same old (well, TAU-era) weaklings for 15, 20, 25k/hr. Why they heck wouldn't they?

[Sabaron]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

...Pink Mage...

I like that. I've never hated Pink Mage. I've always found it to be extremely busy if a bit regimented. Half of your stuff is on a strict timer and the other half is on-demand. All-in-all a very good position to play imo. As for straight DD like MNK where you just sit on Auto-attack (you know how DD's AFK during battles and no one notices)--to me that is boring.


I find myself most often in the role of the Pink Mage even for other applications because it just fits. I gain a great deal of usefulness and versatility from the combo that is lost on other combinations. Of course, when I know I'll be meleeing, I usually try to bring /BLU (offensive mode) unless I need status cures. I take /NIN whenever I'm going to be getting hit (defensive mode) by blinkable mobs (anti-ninja mobs take /BLU). Other sub-job choices are quite circumstantial--chosen only as needed though I have taken /DRK out for a spin on the odd occasion where I'm not feeling /BLU .

/BLU is generally the best thing I can think of for front-lining at the moment. It's not really a true DD sub but then again, RDM isn't really a DD anyway I feel /BLU is the best general front-line Red Mage sub job because of the mp-efficient curing abilities, the customizable attribute shifts, and Vorpal Blade. /NIN is a great sub job too, but it's wasted if you aren't taking hits, so it takes a backseat to /BLU in most multi-player cases. /DRK is more powerful in terms of DD but it's also quite selfish. It does allow for limited additional MP restoration with (unsealed) Aspir and some other rather mediocre Dark Magic, but the magic side is rather lackluster overall with the exception of the Stun spell--/DRK as a DD sub is used for the periodic bursts of Last Resort and Souleater which push its overall damage numbers above that of /BLU by sacrificing multi-target and mp-efficient curing.

Now I know that Glued is all about RDM/DNC... RDM/DNC doesn't look spectacular on paper, but it may be useful in certain very limited-scope activities where the RDM must be on the front-line, is using large amounts of mp, and needs to cure frequently, but I cannot think of a single situation in which /DNC would beat another of RDM's sub jobs.

As for the /BST thing, I'm aware that RDM/BST is occasionally brought out and has some interesting applications, but it's definitely not useful in higher level battles because the charmed pet will be facing monsters almost twice its power--a 40th level crab versus a 75th level goblin isn't going to be the most useful pet in the universe. Pets are excellent for pulling, but /SMN is far better than /BST for two reasons: (1) Summoner pets automatically attack hostiles without the master issuing a command (saves you enmity), and (2) they can be summoned anywhere without fail (unless interrupted).

[Glued]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

its fantastic how this is sliding once again towards another frontline/backline debate. Considering thats not the point of this at all, i know rdm can frontline, you know rdm can front line, i know it can back line, you know it can backline. Whats your point, Talking about jobs such as RDM/DRG first of every job combo i have put down changes a role of a RDM, and is used at one time or another by said RDM. /DRG how ever is not and never was, and i cant see it every being. I did not say we are DD's and somehow when ever someone mentions red mage melee people always jump to the gun. "well rdm cant DD as good as a WAR or a DRG with a A skill" no shit, you think we all dont know that, neither can a NIN, or a DNC or a THF or a PUP or any thin other than WAR SAM DRG DRK MNK. Thanks for bringing information to the table my left nut already new about you can have this /clap.

I am not all about DNC i am looking at dancer, to me sch looks like shit on paper but ill be checking it as well, thats what i do i like to know what my job can do when where why and how. I dont care about what you think about the job combonation i come here to share with people that are like me that enjoy toying with things, that may pop up incertain situations. for example, moving around vanadiel easier. Through beadeux without needing to brng echo drops, because you get SNK invis from /dnc, no that must be shitty. Im not going into why dnc is effecient because ive done it else where.

Its funny to see you people knock players like myself, like wfbbq did to hyrist in hs Hybrid rdm forum, because we are trying something new that may threaten the way you play your job it must be wrong. Or maybe your jealous because more nd more people are trying new things and different roles, when you had to cure bot it to 75, i know i am at times. I dont know why the RDM community cant accept new things people try, really it is the only one that seems to have that problem. Everybodys gotta be the same, hop in the cookie cutter and get baked. I have finally found out what i dislike about RDM, its you all of you who trash on peoples i deas and turn them in flame fests. Always taking it back and steering it to a rdm frontline/backline disscusion so ppl get fed up with it and topic gets burried.

This topic was written not to debate FL/BL it was written to discuss the decline in skill of our job, and thats what it is our skill has dropped. All you people that say well this and that can be soloed, have you soloed have the shit you mentioned or have you just seen avesta do it on you tube?, you think people will know how to properly function at endgame being cure bots for their whole time. Sure XP isnt everything but it takes XP to get to the good stuff it takes XP to teach you the ins and outs of the job. Perhaps i was fortunate enough to level with our refresh and convert, because i acctually had to learn to play the end game aspects of my job first then got to play with the toys.

So i say once again the problem is not with rdm its with the rdm community, you, me, the little guy waiting to punce on this and flame it. Its not as if im telling people how to play their jobs, im offering suggestions to people that perhaps they take time and learn these roles we play before they end up eating dirt in a dyna or assualt, so once again RDM community congratulatios on turning another topic into the endless melee debate /clap,/cheer you guys are real winners.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

Glued - the whole Rdm/Drg thing is kinda a joke reference to it being one of the only, if not the only job that can solo Rank 5-1 Mission; The Archlich fight.

It's not a case of going Rdm can't fight, they can, just not well. I'll repeat what others have put up before me, and what I've said also. Level a melee job and you'll appreciate why you shouldn't be meleeing. The best a Rdm can get to is mediocrity by melee standards. And I don't mean that offensively, I'm just stating the honest truth - Rdm isn't melee main, and shouldn't be in exp, which it would appear is where you are now.

Your arguement for /Dnc having Sneak/Invis is flawed - if you'd said, hey, Rdm/Dnc works great at mining in Mt Z, that would have been better, but still flawed (as an example of an efficient exp sub job). In contrast as Beadeaux has no magic detect mobs if I remember correctly, and /Whm allows you an easier time of bypassing the silent ones as you can Cursna yourself without needing to try and tp up with a fraction of your hp (so, yes in this case, /Dnc is inefficient).

Actually, your arguement about DD's is flawed also. Nin's a very solid DD, as is Thf when geared properly, just that their best weapons are so rediculously hard to get it's a joke, and I don't mean BD, although that also has a shitty drop rate. Pup, I don't know about, but I know we used to use one for Salvage bosses as they did insane damage with their automaton, so I wouldn't write them off entirely.

I think your standpoint of arrogance is mired by the fact you still can't beat Maat. Tell ya what, make a melee build of Rdm and beat Maat with it. Video it and post the video. Then I'll take you seriously.

I'm not entirely sure that your left nut as you put it knows entirely as much as you believe it to. Because - shoot, I've out DD'd Sam's, Monk's, War's and Nin's on Thf. Then again, I've been out DD'd too in other situations.

Rdm isn't an efficient DD by sheer terms of casting. How do I know? For the same damn reason when I play Nin/Rdm I leave the katana's in the MH. When making spells, I don't have time to swing (added to which the Ele Staves are just shiny). So, on Rdm, when I'm swinging, I'm not casting. Or if I'm casting, I'm not swinging. And if I'm not swapping weapons out - then I'm making my spells worse. And if I am swapping my weapons out, then I'm losing TP. And if I'm losing TP, what is the point of me trying to melee with truly mediocre damage, when I'll never make a decent weaponskill?

ESPECIALLY - when I'm the most desired job for exp parties other than brd, for healing, and I have a butt ton of things I can do on my own to play around with. Rdm isn't on a decline at all. It's at a peak where it looks down on other jobs and says "I AM A PRINCESS! WHERE'S MY TABLE DANCE?" and you know what? It gets it.

So then.. that begs the question: "Why is your Rdm on the decline?"

Because you're fighting so hard to be at best mediocre in a world where the conditions have forced players on mass to become hyper efficient, and like the fishes that swim upstream, most die in getting there. A handful don't die on the way up, but the majority do. You realise, you could just join the crowd that doesn't want to waste their money and everyone else's money and get it right... then when you're getting it right, swap and do your own thing then.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

Its funny to see you people knock players like myself, like wfbbq did to hyrist in hs Hybrid rdm forum, because we are trying something new that may threaten the way you play your job it must be wrong. Or maybe your jealous because more nd more people are trying new things and different roles, when you had to cure bot it to 75, i know i am at times.

Trust me, they wouldn't be jealous of you.

This topic was written not to debate FL/BL it was written to discuss the decline in skill of our job, and thats what it is our skill has dropped.

Why do you assume there's a decline in skill? I, for one, am glad no RDM is going to party as /THF "for pulling and SATA," as you put it. Discarding minimally useful tactics to concentrate on the core duties seems like a good thing. If that /THF thing is what you did in the past, I'm sure glad the RDMs of today ignore that idea completely.

In my opinion, whether there is a decline in skill or there is not, you are not qualified to judge.

so once again RDM community congratulatios on turning another topic into the endless melee debate

Aww... Mr. RDM/THF for SATA (and pulling!) doesn't like melee debate--I'm heart broken.

[Glued]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

Ive already made it clear i rarely party if at all, I campaign my exp now for nearly as much as i would get in a party and i can play as multiple styles of RDM. Again im going to say im not tooting the RDM DD horn im saying it can, it dosent take a genius to know or melee damage sucks, but it does take one to understand why it dosent entirley suck. Im not saying were great casters either clearly we are not, we are a mediocre Job in everythig we do with the exception of enfeebling/enhancing. Our sheer versatility allows us to alter our job specifics by subing other Jobs to hone or skills into that area. Im not trying to sound like a know it all bragart but i do know the flaws and limitations in our job. I also know the reason our job is invited to party, which is why i proudly sport {Main}{Healing!} {No Thanks!} and you know what i still get invites asking me to main heal. This is the reason i campaign for exp now, so i dont need to deal with that, i can use any sub i want and not give a shit or have people try and shit on me like a certain whm/thf in my server. This was a rant nothing more than that, our job isnt flawed i was getting pissed off ingame from a certain whm/thf who had the nerve to tell me rdm/whm is the only role our job can play. So i snapped and here we are, i probably dont need to tell you the name of the player she is pretty infamous, but her name starts with an A and ryhmes with banana. This outrageous jerk off argued with me for 45 minutes, or argued with her self i dunno i wasnt paying attention. Claiming all rdm's were lazy and whiney because they couldnt be melee, which isnt the case for most of us. I could care less to melee, if im needed to ok i can do it. But whm/thf tried to tell me i had no purpose to /nin in an xp situation. First off who tells me what i cant and cant do, you can ask me and i may comply or just let you rep me. Secondly how the hell does a whm/thf think she can talk about jobs to sub, is this so when im 75 and happen to merrit with her i can refresh her and haste her because she is meleeing and do her job. This is what made me think about the roots of our job and how much i missed it. I suppose it came out as a flame posting and im sorry i didnt mean any malcontent by it. Its just a rant, reminding people we have more to offer to parties then /whm so the whm's can /thf and melee, if this is where the world is going then i will be picking up a sword and swinging long before a whm gets near the mob.

sorry for wall-o-text just woke up kinda grogy atm.

[Celeal]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

Form your own party.... 50%+ of your problem is solved....

Or static party, even better....

I believe if it is a party, we have to factor in the party members and the surroundings.

Level another job, a front-line job.

[Icemage]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

I campaign my exp now for nearly as much as i would get in a party

I think that comment about sums it all up right there, folks.


Icemage

[Ziero]

Re: The Decline of the RDM

...so a gimp made fun of you for being gimp in a pt and you say everyone else sucks?

In exp PTs, Rdm is best as a support job. That is the ONLY thing I would ever invite a Rdm for, to support the party. But for EVERYTHING ELSE IN GAME, Rdms can and WILL fill other roles specific to each said event.

EXP IS NOT THE MAIN PART OF THE GAME.

Rdm/Nin has it's place in game, but lvl 60-ish pts are not that place. Rdm/Drk has it's place in game, but lvl 60-ish pts are not that place. And Rdm/Thf has it's place in game, but *any* exp pt is not that place.

So it's not a decline of skilled Rdms, it's the insistance that EXP pts are an important part of this game and a diva complex where *you* want to be the sole reason the party succeeds.