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  • The Decline of the RDM

    Hello my brothers and sisters of red.

    Many of you know me as a outspoken whackjob on these forums but i come to you tonight filled with the utmost sincerity. The Decline of the Red Mage. I have been a Red Mage since day 1 of NA release and have take it to 75 on one instance and am currently lvl 69(damn you maat) on my new account. From what i have noticed is the decline of our traditional roles and tasks in a party. Gone are the days of magic bursting and High level meleeing for skill chains. This can be accredited to the decline in skill from our melee friends and the rampant use of TP Burn parties. Truth be told i feel more like a qusai whm/rdm if i could get vert and refresh on a whm. The job has become stale and tremendously boring to play and disgusting on the treatment we receive and the flames we receive for voicing our opinions. I remember the days when melee could skill chain and i could drop a decent nuke for MB. I remeber the days when we needed several subs leveled to fill various party roles from cure bot, pseudo blm, Skill chain partner, and even at times Tanking. Now it seems that we level these jobs, or maybe just me for selfish soloing reasons and braging rights. Honestly when was the last time you were invited to a party non- /whm, is it just me who notices this or what. I mean i remeber the last time i leveled my old 75 RDM i was the Tank in my merit static, to open the door for more heavy DD. Id slap on /PLD and go to work skillchaing, keeping hate, even MBing my own skill chains. I suppose the possible explanation is the lack of Partying in the old CoP areas where mobs were tough. As opposed to the new era of ToAU where mobs are weak and speed is key. Is it me or has the skill rate of some of our bretheren been lost to these parties.

    More and more i see threads popping up of what ifs and how coulds, refering to rdm melee. This is irritating sure i have posted my support to them and why not, heck ive even started them myself in some instances. How should SE fix the problem many people ask, well truth be told there is no problem, we invented it. SE promises us a melee update but why, people arent all the sudden going to let RDM melee again. Why not because us "senior" players who have been around since day 1 are at 75 RDM we can do what we want when we want. But somewhere down the line we let our "junior" classmates get pushed to the side. Now they dont know the true aspect of being a RDM because they have never had a chance to learn it. Sometime between ToAU release and now our job lost its backbone. We have become a class of i guess so's and sure's. We ride comfortably on the fact we get invites for doing nothing but refresh/haste and let melees get us XP. Sure some may enjoy that but how many of you cant stand to party anymore because of it.

    How many of you miss the days of asking a party what do you want me to sub, then chiming out your list as if it had some time of status attached to it, which it did. In the old days /whm, /brd, /smn, /pld, /nin, /drk, /blm were all used by me in and out of parties. now adays people just chime in with the i read about, heard about combos. Then flame us for providing answers of how, why, when. Telling us we are idiots. They dont know why the subs are used or when they can apply, all they know is /whm and cure bit it to 75. As a resault we have killed the WHM population, why bring a knife to a gunfight. Our shortsightedness and non educated Job class has shot itself in the foot. I ask again how many of you have given up on this job, tired of being a glorified half-assed whm.

    Myself thankfully have campaign to go to. I have only been in several parties from lvl 60 in most cases with friends so i could do something other than cure bot. But we as a community keep looking to SE writing ridiculous threads about what we want and what we need, when we dont need a thing. we are a jack of all trades and our subjobs define us. SE has made us fully capable of filling any roll in a party. Even suport rolls native to us, the Stunner, fast cast/haste /drk and spam stun, very effective. The pseudo BLM, lacking T4 and AM but we have cinvert to make up for it by casting more spells. The refresher, subbing bard allows us to apply 4 ticks of MP refresh, for MP burden parties. The pink mage A great "Back Up" healing support job to save whm MP". The blink mage, spinning wheel rocking Magic attack bonus from it, skill chaining and MB. and lastly the tank mage holding hate through botomless MP, /PLD for most hate control in game, spamming sleeps and dispels. These are some of the duties rdm used to preform in parties, these were what made us RDM, the ability to change rolls as we needed to. Not having to sacrafice any of ou skills to gain a boost to the ones we need. That is what our job is about, somewhere this game turned into a XP feast and our job has suffered. Mayhaps not suffered how your looking at it, i get alot of invites. To that i say so what i get them to i used to get them for other reasons then watching HP bars.

    Unfourtunatly i do not know why people tear each other apart, perhaps their are to few of us old players left, and the crown has been passed on. I am only writing this because i felt like a rant was necassary, im personally tired of the attacks we do on each other, im tired of people saying "Well thats stupid Stfu /mage and get on the backline" These new players are faulting or jobs principles by shooting down thoughts and ideas. However, on that note thoughts and ideas only go so far. We need do's we need to get these new players to learn and old players to remeber that every job in this game at one point or another works for us, and changes our role. We need to get the other jobs to realize we are not a 1 trick pony, we need them to remeber that once up on a time RDM was the most sought after job because of sheer versatility, not refresh and haste, those were just bonuses that came with the teritory.

    Now as for the flamers out there ready to pounce on this i care less this is fact, this is our job, flame on and enjoy the way you play. As for the other people out there i hope this hits home, the death of the rdm is somber and we need to fix it.

    Also SE did announce a adjustment to RDM combat ability, unknow to what this is or can be, speculation is rampant. Unfourtunatly they will probably go through with this and our job will become tarnished, unless we get staff skill(which i never understiid why we didnt) anyhow, thanks for reading this kind of long i know, but im not sorry.

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  • #2
    Re: The Decline of the RDM

    So, you're unhappy that the way RDM is used/played in-game has changed since the days of NA launch? Is that the whole point of the OP?

    * * *

    RDM/PLD tank back in the days? lol?
    Last edited by ItazuraNhomango; 01-21-2008, 12:23 AM. Reason: Forgot the [/spoiler] tag.
    Bamboo shadows sweep the stars,
    yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
    Moonlight pierces the depths of the pond,
    leaving no trace in the water.

    - Mugaku

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    • #3
      Re: The Decline of the RDM

      i guess i am upset with the way our roll has changed we are now a one trick pony, no one takes outakes us for our versatility anymore only refresh/haste or cure bot. sure ya the game has evloved to this point. But at what cost think any rdm out their from TouA on can tank, knows how to be a stunmage, hell most dont even know what to MB with. I'm saying because of this RDM has become a shell and when people get together to try and explain how and why they get flammed because no one understands it anymore rdm/nin isnt a great tank at end game because losing shadows causes hate reduction. Flash is intgeral and now all those other bonuses from /pld are just gravey. Ive done probably every combo that could assist a party, keeping in mind these were done pre TP burns and nin/nin craze we live in today.

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      • #4
        Re: The Decline of the RDM

        Actually Rdm/Nin is a beast as an endgame tank. You have Dispel, Sleep, Sleep II, Bind, Blind for hate not to mention the amount on Enmity you can pack onto yourself. My old linkshell use to co-tank rdm/nin along side my Nin/Drk or Pld/Nin. Rdm/Nin hate is insane the trick is just putting it all together and not running off solo tanking. Anytime a mob attacks you, your going to lose hate so its not the shadow loss.

        Alot of Endgame Linkshells use Red Mages for more then just a cure/fresh bot, but Exp wise that is going to be the role red mage is stuck in unless you make your own parties sadly. =/
        [FFXI Journal][Pld][War][Nin][Drg][Rng][Brd]



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        • #5
          Re: The Decline of the RDM

          Originally posted by Glued View Post
          i guess i am upset with the way our roll has changed we are now a one trick pony, no one takes outakes us for our versatility anymore only refresh/haste or cure bot. sure ya the game has evloved to this point. But at what cost think any rdm out their from TouA on can tank, knows how to be a stunmage, hell most dont even know what to MB with.
          The word is "role", not "roll".

          Anyway, you're exaggerating, whether you know it or not.

          I'm a relatively new RDM75, but within the last year, I've shown up to exp and/or merit parties as: RDM/WHM, RDM/BLM, RDM/PLD, RDM/DRK, RDM/BRD.

          I had SC+MB parties, too. Frequently? No. But, they still exist. (All of those are pick-up groups, by the way, not LS/friend parties.)

          * * *

          My role in CoP 7.5 fight was Chainspell+Stun. RDM/BLM in Dynamis, as crowd control. RDM/NIN for LS skill up parties--help cure, handle adds, etc. Solo pesky elementals, too--while helping with cure and handle adds.

          Currently working on /SCH (someone invite my SCH! ), so I can be a stronger nuker in kited fights.

          Check out what some of the other frequent posting RDMs on the board are doing; you just may be surprised. (Oh, don't forget: RDM/NIN's are now used as endgame tanks.)

          Versatility for RDM is well and alive, for those RDMs who seek it.
          Bamboo shadows sweep the stars,
          yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
          Moonlight pierces the depths of the pond,
          leaving no trace in the water.

          - Mugaku

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          • #6
            Re: The Decline of the RDM

            Rdm/Sch has some serious potential, can't wait to see it fully tested out and put to the test.
            [FFXI Journal][Pld][War][Nin][Drg][Rng][Brd]



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            • #7
              Re: The Decline of the RDM

              I don't know what mythical time period you played RDM in where people actually needed RDM to melee. I've been playing since NA beta (June 2003) and have never seen instances until very recently where anyone seriously contemplated using RDM in melee in XP parties, let alone as a tank at endame aside from small-party situations against specific NMs.

              P.S. RDM/PLD has always sucked lemons. You could open a lemonade stand with all the lemons that RDM/PLD sucks.


              Icemage

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              • #8
                Re: The Decline of the RDM

                Oh i forgot another role RDM played in the day, RDM/THF was used widely for pulling and SATA when thf's were not available. I just find it embarassing that the majority of people dont know the history of our jobs capabilities or roles. It really bugs me when i try to explain to people the importance of our wide array of sub jobs only to be shot down by the (usually) non-rdm or melee that have never levelled the job, and tell people how to play it the way they want them to. SE needs to over haul the entire aspect of party systems to return Jobs to they way they should be. BLM lives in obscurity, WHM is endangered species #1, PUP's dont get invited to parties ever, DRG's same thing as pups. Now THF's are being knocked from parties and MNK's as well because they "Can't" preform with the parties setups. Which is out rageous because id take a MNK or THF over a DRK DNC COR anyday why are they being cut i dont know i dont party, just the anger from the MNK, THF's in mys shell.

                Now leaving RDM for a bit i would like to talk about NIN, possibly the most overlooked in terms of sheer possibility. Since its immersion into the game NIN was unfairly dubbed a "tank" and has been that way ever since. Now lets looke at ninja's abilitys for a bit, dual weild, ninjutsu (none of which are provoke or spike hate grabbing). Now /war yes a ninja does get voke but these "Blink Tanks" lose hate usually before voke is ready, and without shadows are pretty squishy. Now im not knocking NIN tanks some are great most are terrible. Now this isnt what i wanted to talk about this is just to show how NIN has been unfairly pushed into something it cant get out of. NIN is one of the most versatile jobs next to rdm, it can tank, pull, dd, back-up tank, SATA hate, and be apowerful magician.

                The elemental wheel used as much as rosie odonell uses a tredmill. Possibly because of the outrageous price in tools or what i think is the lack of knowledge give to players about it. So i will talk about it before i delve further. The elemental wheel is a powerful elemental magic tool. The spells themselves are relativley moderate however add a cut in resistence to the stronger element in the wheel for example You cast Hoyton (ice) > Katon (fire). by castinf Hoyton first Katon will no do more damage to the mob.
                this is the elemental wheel flow chart.
                Hoyton>Katon>Suiton>Raiton>Doton>Huton>Hoyton
                Ice>Fire>Water>Thunder>Earth>Wind>Ice

                example you are fighting a Bat Mob- WIND > Earth / Ice > wind

                so you see the mob is wind based so he is weak to ice but strong to earth and neutral with everything else. So you think to yourself how do i cast to earn the most damage. Well seeing as the mob is weak to earth you would do this

                Thunder>Earth>Wind>Ice>Fire>Water

                This will have thunder hit normally, earth hit with virtually no resist, and ice will hit double because it is stron already, also if you have a good blm he can cast on your Huton and hit blizzard hard.

                Now why dont we see this set up, because the community hasn't the slightest lue how ninjas work outside of being a tank. INT + ELEMENTAL SKILL + JUJITSU + MAB all affect spell damage. Now why dont more NIN /BLM or /RDM (post lvl 60) for this. It i possible to Upwards of 1500 damage by spinning the wheel. Which can be done faster than a blm who casts a T4 spell. Now the arguement of shadows, well lets see 1500 damage in a shortime is pretty mean thing to do, shadows up no damage and uninterupted spell casting.

                So we can weigh the pros andcons of these a blink tank that more often then not slows party down because it cant hold hate or a Elemental specialist that can reduce a mobs HP in 10 seconds. Do we get his type of assistance no because the community at large dosent even know the possibility of this. 2 broken jobs fixable by us not SE, lets see what else i can dig up that will make our live easier ill get back to you.

                so begin by casting Earth a

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                • #9
                  Re: The Decline of the RDM

                  in reply tothe above postees, i am aware of those set ups as well and am not discretiting, i think rdm/nin is a powerful tank. Im also curious on sch potential and am activley leveling it to see how it can work. for us.

                  specifically to icemage

                  that is unfourtunate to hear you did not get to participate in the golden age of rdm but to discredit is appaling. personally wether or not you did it does not mean it was not done, ive played rdm in roles that are considered obscure but that is the nature of our job, or was.

                  I understand at 75 you have the opportunity to use all those glorius subs and i cant wait till im 75 again to do so myself, but now the role of rdm has shifted from a versatile xp party member to that of a 2nd rate WHM. Perhaps xp parties will soon move to Wotg where mobs are weak and strong and a revival of the versatile RDM and traditional party will reamerge. These things i am putting forth are based around traditional parties and the 12 jobs we had to chose from. I understand the greater choices have pushed us out, hell we dont even need to come to parties for refresh and haste if there are brd's and cor's there. EXP parties dont even need us to come cure with dancer in party now so where does that leave us if we rely on /whm or /blm TP burns out number traditional parties why invite a mage when you can get melee to fill in.

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                  • #10
                    Re: The Decline of the RDM

                    Originally posted by Glued View Post
                    Oh i forgot another role RDM played in the day, RDM/THF was used widely for pulling and SATA when thf's were not available.
                    This is a joke, right? Well, at least it's funny, either way.

                    Originally posted by Glued View Post
                    I just find it embarassing that the majority of people dont know the history of our jobs capabilities or roles.
                    Hey, good thing you know about RDM/THF's SATA power. Go-go SATA Fast Blade at Lv.60!


                    Originally posted by Glued View Post
                    Now this isnt what i wanted to talk about this is just to show how NIN has been unfairly pushed into something it cant get out of. NIN is one of the most versatile jobs next to rdm, it can tank, pull, dd, back-up tank, SATA hate, and be apowerful magician.
                    SATA again! (You kind of left out debuff'er, by the way.)

                    So, NIN is "unfairly pushed into something" like tanking because... it's efficient at it? Goodness, what horror!

                    Originally posted by Glued View Post
                    (Some more NIN stuff; mostly about the Nijutsu wheel.)

                    Do we get his type of assistance no because the community at large dosent even know the possibility of this.
                    The community at large doesn't know? Not really sure, but at least this community discuss the damage potential from Ninjutsu wheel from time to time: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/nin...in-help-2.html
                    Bamboo shadows sweep the stars,
                    yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
                    Moonlight pierces the depths of the pond,
                    leaving no trace in the water.

                    - Mugaku

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                    • #11
                      Re: The Decline of the RDM

                      how often do see NIN use elemental wheel even /war damge output aside? personally like i said as often as rosie uses a tredmill. Sure they can discuss it, how many ninjas do you see lose hate, how many times have you died because mr nin thinks an utsu spam can hold hate. I was saying as a broad spectrum because people dont use therefore dont know about it . Why dont they get kicked because of it if i came to a praty without haste/refresh/dispel id be droped. Is it any different no ninjas suck at tanking unless they use this technique which is rare and thats why you see the good ninjas from the bad. Is the same as RDM you can tell a bad rdm from a good rdm from the spells he utilizes and his ability to control a haste/refresh cycle. How many times have you pulled hate from a ninja using dispel, me at least 3 times a party, and why because they are to cheap to get the tools or dont know about it. Again i say if i was to cheap or lazy to aquire my spells whould i have a spot in the party, not for long. So why can this job get away with half assing it, because they have shadows, do your job or gtfo.
                      Also no ninja isnt efficient at tanking, unless someone good is at the helm if i pull hate from a dispel or casting an enfeeble then something is wrong, I can tell you i can spam Teir 3 and AM on my BLM all day and not get hate from a PLD but dispel common a ninja cant even hold that pathetic.

                      Also i was just browsing the forums and found an intersting debate in the ask SE questions section,asking SE how they though RDM was/is to their plan. Its interesting to see the comments in there are on the same page i am, is this problem i have and share fixable sure it is i can make a party for CoP areas, but why should i have to alter a camping area to appease my self from TP burns,

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                      • #12
                        Re: The Decline of the RDM

                        I have only one other contribution to make to these wall-o-text Cheese and Whine Celebrations.

                        If they made RDM any better, they'd have to nerf it. Red mage is already one of the most powerful jobs in FFXI. Giving it any more power would upset the balance even further - and that's even considering that it has lackluster melee damage.

                        Seriously, take your tears and cry to your friendly neighborhood Puppetmaster. I'm sure they'll have buckets of sympathy for you.


                        Icemage

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                        • #13
                          Re: The Decline of the RDM

                          Starting to think we should just start a collective RDM Boo-Hoo Thread. Job has everything going for it and whine, whine, whine.

                          "I wanna use my sword."
                          "I wanna be more than a healer."
                          "I wanna enfeeble."

                          You can sit there and hope SE's update is going to swing things to how you want to play the job. I can garuntee you that all the updates in the world will not change the role you will be invited for. RDM will never be invited to be a damage dealer and so long as you choose to party in ToA camps, you will never be an enfeebler... unless you sub /DNC and I'm sorry but people will see right through that.

                          But the moment you build small PTs and EXP in the VIABLE, EXISTING zones not under the rule of the Empire, guess what? Yeah, you won't get faster, easy EXP. Tough shit, but what you will get is to rest with no TP loss, you will get a slight EXP boost, you will get fast recovery +hHP recovery for that group. You'll get to DD and enfeeble as "intended."

                          You won't get anything sitting there sitting an whining in the zillionth topic on the matter. Face it, your party role has been long since established - there is no redefining it. The mind of the community is set on what your role is and they're not wrong for inviting you for what they want, you're wrong for expecting them to invite you for other reasons.

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                          • #14
                            Re: The Decline of the RDM

                            Originally posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten View Post
                            so long as you choose to party in ToA camps, you will never be an enfeebler...
                            My RDM leveled through ToAU camps... I enfeebled! Good thing, too; saved a good deal of MP that way. (Even when I was afraid of regular Colibri's Parroting, I used Slow on them.)

                            Oh, on my PLD, the RDMs I had in parties typically cast enfeebs as well--apparently RDM casting enfeebs is still the standard practice, and I'm not crazy. *shrug*

                            Even in merit parties, my RDM still cast enfeebs, Greater Colibri camp aside. (That one gets reduced down to Dia II, unless the DD and tank sucked.)

                            I've seen exp parties asking the SMN to stop using Avatars, but never--not even once--had one asking myself or any other RDM to stop using all enfeebling magic. ("NO BIO!", yes, but that's technically Dark Magic. )

                            * * *

                            Try Imps without Silence; I guarantee you can tell the difference from either the front line or the back line.

                            * * *

                            If you meant "enfeebler-only", that's different; no one would invite a RDM just for enfeebs.

                            Then again, RDM was never supposed to just an enfeebler; the pre-ToAU RDMs love to tell stories about MB'ing, and saving parties with Cure or Escape when the WHM run dry, or when party have adds and links which refuse to sleep. Crazier tales involve Gravity, Bind, Sleep I/II/ga, ten minutes of kiting in tight space, and mission impossible recoveries from half-wipes with multiple hostiles at camp in the pre-despawn era.

                            "I only cast enfeebs!" is a wacky idea from deranged players; real Red Mages have always known better.
                            Bamboo shadows sweep the stars,
                            yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
                            Moonlight pierces the depths of the pond,
                            leaving no trace in the water.

                            - Mugaku

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                            • #15
                              Re: The Decline of the RDM

                              Play RDM outside of just Merit/EXP parties. If you only play in one type of party, don't be surprised if you're invited to fill the same position.

                              I magic bursting when I could.
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