RDM/DNC rehashed

[Ellipses]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

RDM arrives with the mob, DDs take hate, RDM engages for 2 hits for 10% TP (1 if Joyeuse double-hit procs, or if Aspir Samba is already up), and inflicts Aspir Samba on the mob while Hasting or Refreshing 1 party member. If mob is Mage-type, Wind Staff::Silence. Run off and pull again.

At which point Aspir Samba becomes useless because the RDM is no longer hitting the mob to inflict Aspir Daze.

[Aliekber]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

At which point Aspir Samba becomes useless because the RDM is no longer hitting the mob to inflict Aspir Daze.

I'm pretty sure that as long as everyone keeps hitting it, it will continue to maintain whatever daze is already on the mob. Has anyone tested this? I duoed with a PLD/NIN and I'm pretty sure that her hits were maintaining the daze while I took breaks to cast.

[Celeal]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Just had an idea while out for lunch. Theoretical party setup for RDM/DNC in camps other than Colibri.

WHM/NIN - Main Healer (Bear with me, I'll explain)
RDM/DNC - Puller
DD
DD
DD
DD

So here's how I would envision this working:

RDM + WHM start by Refresh/Hasting the party fully, as quickly as possible, then RDM leaves to pull.

RDM arrives with the mob, DDs take hate, RDM engages for 2 hits for 10% TP (1 if Joyeuse double-hit procs, or if Aspir Samba is already up), and inflicts Aspir Samba on the mob while Hasting or Refreshing 1 party member. If mob is Mage-type, Wind Staff::Silence. Run off and pull again.

The WHM/NIN makes sure to keep shadows up while meleeing with DW clubs (KClub may be overdoing it, but I'm sure people will want to try it) for MP, and main heals the party, tossing out Hexa-Strikes as needed. The reason I say WHM/NIN are: 1) Shadows 2) DW for Aspir Samba 3) Status effect cures.

Aside: For those of you who are unfamiliar with how Aspir Samba is calculated, it is based on delay (mainly), and oddly enough, it counts the increased delay from dual wielding on both weapons, it doesn't divide the delay for both. The upshot of all this is that while a single wielded Sword/Club + Aspir Samba ~= MP recovery rate of Mage's Ballad II, DW Swords/Clubs both increases the amount of MP recovered per hit, while increasing the number of hits as well, and gives MP back something closer to the rate of Refresh + Mage's Ballad II. This means that if you Refresh the White Mage every fifth pull, and always inflict Aspir Samba before pulling the next mob, your WHM will consistently be under an MP refresh rate comparable to Refreshx2 + Mage's Ballad II, a whopping ~8MP/tick (depending on WHM hit rate). 9, if they're using a Noble's Tunic, Vermillion Cloak, etc. At Colibri camp, you could probably even get away with a PLD/NIN main healing the party while doing some damage (although you will have to give up some Hastes a WHM could have cast).

In this situation, RDM gears all-out for +ACC, with enough +STR/+ATK to make sure he consistently hits for at least 1, in order to gain TP. His TP contribution to the mob is negligible, as he only hits the mob twice, at most, so damage should not be a concern as long as enough is done to gain TP.

Why is this worth considering? It should allow a reasonably fast-paced burn for a RDM with /DNC leveled whenever he wants, whether or not a BRD or COR is available, as WHM75 are plentiful, and there are always DD available.

Thoughts?

I think it will "work." At least it is safe.

In the setup WHM/NIN, RDM/DNC, DD x 4, instead of using WHM, i would:

BLU/WHM, RDM/DNC, DD x 4

or

BLU/WHM, RDM/DNC, DD x 3, DNC

I think the work load is more balance, or well-rounded in that way.

[Sabaron]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

I'm pretty sure that as long as everyone keeps hitting it, it will continue to maintain whatever daze is already on the mob. Has anyone tested this? I duoed with a PLD/NIN and I'm pretty sure that her hits were maintaining the daze while I took breaks to cast.

AFAIK, Samba is a fixed duration of 2 minutes after the Dancer hits it the first time--it operates like an "Additional Effect" debuff with one use.

As for the WHM/NIN RDM/DNC setup--you say this is for non-Colibri parties with MP mobs. What kind of mob? I certainly don't want my party's only source of healing standing next to a BLM mob while it casts Sleepga II. What are the proposed camp/mob targets for this setup? I don't doubt that Aspir Samba can provide a significant amount of MP refresh, but it's the danger to the mage group that generally puts them in the back line in the first place. I would say that I'd not want my WHM in range of blasts from Troll Rangers, Imps, ESPECIALLY Skoffins, or even Puks (Wind shear interruption of Cure V could be fatal).

[Richie]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

On weapon switch and TP loss:
- Silence won't land well on Imps and Mamool Ja mages without Wind Staff, and it's important to land that.

Yes it does? I land it regularly without swapping. Imps? You would have to be retarded to go /dnc on imps.

- Trolls often require RDM to help nuke down Diamondhide to keep chain. Do you just cast without staves? (IMO, that would waste MP and possibly risk losing chain.)
- Troll RDM and PLD need to be silenced. Can you land silence without Wind Staff?

If your pt is built correctly for a roaming troll PT (rdm brd 4 DD) the diamond hide is off before you can finish casting Dia. I don't Bother silencing the pld and rdm, the shell they spam isn't doing us any harm. The only thing stopping trolls from being faster XP is the distance between them. I don't think any other sub could get the numbers we did on trolls because it would require resting and ballad which would slow down the brd.

Other concerns I have:
- Mamool Ja NIN is hard to control without Sleepga/Stonea/Banishga to get rid of its Utusemi's copy images. How do you deal with that on /DNC when puller brings back links?
- How do you deal with AoE damage or status effects when out of TP?
- Timer on Divine Waltz is 10 seconds, and cost is 40TP. How do you make sure you always have enough TP and can use it fast enough?

The bard handles the pulling, dispels and links. Unless you're dealing with an armature bard they will have no problem with this. With enfeebling merits and decent gear(318 enf 100mnd) you shouldn't have any problems landing silence. The only status effects problems you run into are on skoffin, if you don't have a second bard you shouldn't pull these and if you have to because the camp is crowded (mamool is a last resort camp, why are you going there if it's crowded?)

- Which party setups in which camps enabled you to get the kind of exp rate you've tossed out?

Colibri: The best setup is 2brd 3 dd and rdm/dnc for pushing out other pts. If it's empty you only need 1 brd and a cor in the place of the second brd is best.

Troll: You need heavy DD and at least 2 vokers, 2 war 2 mnk brd rdm. The key here is roaming fast and not wasting any time betweek kills, the brd positions the mobs along the roaming path and sleeps adds. When you pull a pld both the brd and rdm dispel to remove protect. Save some TP for Box step on the plds.

Trolls are the most taxing of the 3 camps as they can dish out some big hits that are going to require MP curing.

Mamool: I have done 2 setups that were very different in play style. One was 2 brd one with /whm. We pulled everything and attempted to push out everyone else. It was a friday night and everything was packed. We camped right in the middle and just slept all around with one brd handling all the status cures from the skoffin and the other one mainly pulling. This was very hectic but it worked well. The other was the more standard 1 brd 4 DD and we pulled off to the side. We wouldn't have been able to handle skoffin but we didn't need to because we were the only ones there. The biggest pain in the mamool camp is the puks with flash, this is really the only thing that hurts my TP.

* * *

Maybe this is the key? If there's another mage on main healer duty, RDM/DNC won't exactly cripple of the party. Then again, a RDM/anything won't likely cripple a party in that case, except maybe on Imps. (I average getting silenced 2-3 times per Imp party per hour. No, I'm not interested in carrying 6 stacks of Echo Drops and melee up front--I'll warp out when I run through two stacks, thank-you-very-much.)

I don't pt with 2 healer pts, they're just too slow. Again you really shouldn't /dnc on imps. You know where you're going before you leave so just switch to /whm. Anyone that decides what they're going to sub before they know the PT setup and where they're going is just stupid.

Nice thing about RDM + WHM in party is that the mages can alternate resting time and cover each other on cures, allowing for much smoother recovery when things go wrong, often without breaking chain. No one ever complains about getting Raise III instead of my weak R1, either.

In a merit pt you should be the only mage with the exception of a bone burn.

Anyway, I don't think anyone here believes RDM/DNC is worthless--just /DNC is worth less in most situations than some other support jobs.

Maybe so but the thing is you generally know what your situation is before you leave town. I'm not going to say "oh well I decided I'm subbing dnc this month, guess I'm screwed for sky". Part of being a red mage is knowing what situations you will be placed in and adapting to it. Sure /whm covers a tons of situation decently but if that's the only sub you're willing to use then you're not doing yourself any favors.


Many of the completely false claims in this thread such as "you won't ever get enough tp" and "red mages are too busy casting to swing" were already discredited here: http://killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=164154

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

I'll throw out an idea on this one. If your TP cures can keep everyone healed up, and you have so much MP to spare you don't know what to do with it, then you could always nuke to speed up kills

Whooooooooosssh.

RDM shouldn't run out of MP for cures - ever. Again, what is the TP for? You must need a starship.

AFAIK, Samba is a fixed duration of 2 minutes after the Dancer hits it the first time--it operates like an "Additional Effect" debuff with one use.

Samba does not have a fixed duration for anyone but the Dancer, once the dancer is out of contact or missing often, the Samba Daze effect will soon wear off. This is another reason why RDM/DNC is a flawed combo - RDM is so casting-oriented that enough time will pass that they won't contact the mob via melee and the effect wears off for everyone, only to be active again for everyone whenever the DNC or /DNC makes contact again.

A RDM/DNC pulling would render Sambas completely useless. Not to mention they'd have even fewer chances to TP than the zomgmeleetard RDM/DNC would.

Again, its the job mechanics that just aren't compatible. There is no good reason for RDM to hold back on using MP to TP for the sake of Cures and Enfeebling. They do it well enough with the MP they have.

[Aliekber]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

AFAIK, Samba is a fixed duration of 2 minutes after the Dancer hits it the first time--it operates like an "Additional Effect" debuff with one use.

As for the WHM/NIN RDM/DNC setup--you say this is for non-Colibri parties with MP mobs. What kind of mob? I certainly don't want my party's only source of healing standing next to a BLM mob while it casts Sleepga II. What are the proposed camp/mob targets for this setup? I don't doubt that Aspir Samba can provide a significant amount of MP refresh, but it's the danger to the mage group that generally puts them in the back line in the first place. I would say that I'd not want my WHM in range of blasts from Troll Rangers, Imps, ESPECIALLY Skoffins, or even Puks (Wind shear interruption of Cure V could be fatal).

I'm thinking Colibri (when I said non-Colibri, I probably should have said not restricted to Colibri (as RDM/DNC main heal seems to be), as there is nothing I can see stopping this setup from working on Colibri), Mamools, and if you're up to it, it would probably work on Trolls too. While the WHM being close to BLM-type mobs makes Sleepga effects a danger, the RDM should be Silencing these mobs before leaving for the next pull, so that combined with Poison Pots (if necessary, if the mob becomes unsilenced before death) should keep the WHM from being slept, as long as kill speed is adequate. There is no reason for the WHM to be meleeing on mobs without MP, except for a little extra damage or to spam Moonlight, so on Troll Rangers (as in your example) the WHM can heal from the back, since Utsu won't protect them from their AoE move, and then move back up for the safer mobs.

I do think using a BLU/WHM makes a lot of sense too, if only for the ability to dispel, and being less likely to eat dirt from AoE, in addition to higher damage than WHM.

[Icemage]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Yes it does? I land it regularly without swapping.

I call BS.

Silence doesn't land worth a hill of beans without staves on Mamool Jas, who are wind-aligned. Even with a Wind Staff, Enfeebling Torque, 8 levels of Enfeebling Magic merits, 3 levels of Wind Magic Accuracy, and +33 MND, I doubt I do better than 66% on Silence against Mamool Ja Blusterers. Maybe 85% on Mamool Ja Philosophers.

Works OK on trolls without staves, however.

If your pt is built correctly for a roaming troll PT (rdm brd 4 DD) the diamond hide is off before you can finish casting Dia. I don't Bother silencing the pld and rdm, the shell they spam isn't doing us any harm. The only thing stopping trolls from being faster XP is the distance between them. I don't think any other sub could get the numbers we did on trolls because it would require resting and ballad which would slow down the brd.

RDM is never limited by MP at troll camps. That camp is purely down to pull speed. You need two pullers plus 3 decent DDs or your chains will break with regularity.

The bard handles the pulling, dispels and links. Unless you're dealing with an armature bard they will have no problem with this. With enfeebling merits and decent gear(318 enf 100mnd) you shouldn't have any problems landing silence. The only status effects problems you run into are on skoffin, if you don't have a second bard you shouldn't pull these and if you have to because the camp is crowded (mamool is a last resort camp, why are you going there if it's crowded?)

Mamool Ja Staging point is the best merit camp in the game, bar none. Easily reachable enemies, lots of them. I'd love to hear what you do about Dread Shriek as RDM/DNC. Can you really afford to wait 15 seconds between removing paralyze effects?

Colibri: The best setup is 2brd 3 dd and rdm/dnc for pushing out other pts. If it's empty you only need 1 brd and a cor in the place of the second brd is best.

Colibri camp is a yawn-fest. 2 pullers of any type and a subless RDM can handle that camp with ease. The problem is usually overcrowding, and the fact that Colibri give relatively low XP (sub-100 sometimes even with chains).

Troll: You need heavy DD and at least 2 vokers, 2 war 2 mnk brd rdm. The key here is roaming fast and not wasting any time betweek kills, the brd positions the mobs along the roaming path and sleeps adds. When you pull a pld both the brd and rdm dispel to remove protect. Save some TP for Box step on the plds.

See my above comment. Two pullers or don't even bother because you'll be hard pressed to break Chain #10 even with a good roaming pattern.

Trolls are the most taxing of the 3 camps as they can dish out some big hits that are going to require MP curing.

Mamool: I have done 2 setups that were very different in play style. One was 2 brd one with /whm. We pulled everything and attempted to push out everyone else. It was a friday night and everything was packed. We camped right in the middle and just slept all around with one brd handling all the status cures from the skoffin and the other one mainly pulling. This was very hectic but it worked well. The other was the more standard 1 brd 4 DD and we pulled off to the side. We wouldn't have been able to handle skoffin but we didn't need to because we were the only ones there. The biggest pain in the mamool camp is the puks with flash, this is really the only thing that hurts my TP.

Puks are weak. Mamool Ja Lurkers and Skoffin are the big dangers here. They have extremely high evasion to start with, and it gets worse if they use Warm Up. They are much more likely to kill your chains than extremely short-lived Flash effects. They also Triple Attack to wipe shadows and sometimes follow up with a TP attack, which can be quite annoying.

EDIT: It occurs to me that you're talking about the south end of the Mamool Ja Staging point area. That camp sucks - it's hard to break 20K/hr there unless you've got really good players. The north side is much better, albeit more challenging - it's possible to peak over 30K/hr there if you're firing on all cylinders.


Icemage

[Aliekber]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Whooooooooosssh.

RDM shouldn't run out of MP for cures - ever. Again, what is the TP for? You must need a starship.

Where did I say that RDM is running out of MP for cures? Point it out to me, will you? What I said is that if your TP is covering your curing needs enough, you don't need to use MP for it, and you can use that MP for something else, like to do more damage, resulting in faster kills.

Samba does not have a fixed duration for anyone but the Dancer, once the dancer is out of contact or missing often, the Samba Daze effect will soon wear off.

If this is the case, then it will certainly be an issue to consider. However, I know for a fact that Sambas last for 10 seconds after the last hit (whether it has to be the DNC or /DNC is the question, if not, there is no issue (I'm pretty sure the PLD/NIN was able to maintain it the whole time I was casting, more than 10 seconds). If so, keep reading), and if it has to be the DNC or /DNC that hits to keep the daze in effect, then the faster your kills/pulls are, the larger percentage of the time the WHM will be under Aspir Samba's effects, up to 1/3 of the time if you're in a high-DD party that can kill the mob in 30 seconds, or 1/6 of the time if it takes them a full minute. Even at 1 kill/minute, your main heal will be under Refresh full-time (3mp/tick) + Aspir Samba 1/6 of the time [(~5mp/tick) * 1/6 = .83 mp/tick], for an MP-recovery rate similar to Refresh + Ballad I. Not great, but not terrible. At 2kills/minute, it is closer to Refresh + Ballad II (3mp/tick + ~1.67mp/tick). With Sanction Refresh + Autorefresh gear + Moonlight as necessary, I think it should be able to last the main heal a while. It's not as good as RDM/WHM + BRD|COR, but as I already stated, you wouldn't use this setup when a BRD or COR is available.

A RDM/DNC pulling would render Sambas completely useless. Not to mention they'd have even fewer chances to TP than the zomgmeleetard RDM/DNC would.

I've already addressed this above.

Again, its the job mechanics that just aren't compatible. There is no good reason for RDM to hold back on using MP to TP for the sake of Cures and Enfeebling. They do it well enough with the MP they have.

That may be, but I think it's still worth experimenting with.

[Richie]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Try reading my post next time. If we're pulling skoffin we have a second bard or I'm subbing whm. Yawn all you want on colibri, 20k an hour is 20k an hour. Last time I did /whm on colibri I literally fell asleep, I never had that problem with /dnc.

Only chain 10? I guess you haven't been in a good roaming pt yet then.

I said flash hurts my TP not my PT.

30k/hour? Fix your parse or ditch the anniversary ring, if you're killing fast enough for 30k there won't be enough mobs around to hold it for more than 30 minutes. Everyone knows that's a BS claim.

Oh and you guys can keep speculating all you like, it's really not worth the effort to convince you all. So go on keep guessing on shit that you don't know anything about instead of leveling the job and trying it out.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Yes it does? I land it regularly without swapping. Imps? You would have to be retarded to go /dnc on imps.

Well, at least we agree on RDM/DNC isn't for Imps. Regarding landing Silence on Mamool Ja mages without Wind Staff, I don't believe you.

The reason? I couldn't land it consistently even with Wind Staff. Icemage, who has better merits and much better gear than me, reports the same.

Unless you come up with additional evidence, I'll have to call you a liar.

If your pt is built correctly for a roaming troll PT (rdm brd 4 DD) the diamond hide is off before you can finish casting Dia.

Perhaps I just haven't been luck enough to have such kind of strong party. In any case, SC+MB was fun.

I don't Bother silencing the pld and rdm, the shell they spam isn't doing us any harm.

They have Cure IV, too, IIRC. Protect would slow down your DD's, or make you use time and MP to Dispel.

With enfeebling merits and decent gear(318 enf 100mnd) you shouldn't have any problems landing silence.

This on Mamool Ja mages, right? See above on performance of an "average" RDM silence (me and my NQ Wind Staff) and that of a "well geared/merited" RDM silence (Icemage).

The burden of proof is on you.

Colibri: The best setup is 2brd 3 dd and rdm/dnc for pushing out other pts. If it's empty you only need 1 brd and a cor in the place of the second brd is best.

Getting one BRD is hard enough... Can your RDM/DNC function with just one BRD without another COR?

Troll: You need heavy DD and at least 2 vokers, 2 war 2 mnk brd rdm. The key here is roaming fast and not wasting any time betweek kills, the brd positions the mobs along the roaming path and sleeps adds. When you pull a pld both the brd and rdm dispel to remove protect. Save some TP for Box step on the plds.

This sounds good, but would you mind explaining what RDM/DNC adds which makes it better RDM/WHM, besides Box Step? I thought Barfira and Curaga would be helpful versus the RNG Trolls?

Mamool: I have done 2 setups that were very different in play style. One was 2 brd one with /whm.

What's the advantage of RDM/DNC over RDM/WHM in this case, especially since someone needs to be on /WHM anyway?

Many of the completely false claims in this thread such as "you won't ever get enough tp" and "red mages are too busy casting to swing" were already discredited here: http://killingifrit.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=164154

*sigh* Why does it have to KI? That site loads so painfully slow on my computer. I'll read it, but meh...

[Icemage]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Try reading my post next time. If we're pulling skoffin we have a second bard or I'm subbing whm. Yawn all you want on colibri, 20k an hour is 20k an hour. Last time I did /whm on colibri I literally fell asleep, I never had that problem with /dnc.

Everyone can fall asleep on Colibri. As I mentioned above, you can go basically subless and no one would notice. Colibri are pathetic.

Only chain 10? I guess you haven't been in a good roaming pt yet then.

I can break chain 10 in LS parties there, but there's a lot of running and usually something stupid happens to break chains after a while. Gotten up to Chain #45 or so there, but the XP/hr is still pretty weak compared to other camps, and Diamondhide blows since it's not dispellable. On the other hand, there's almost never competition for the camp.

30k/hour? Fix your parse or ditch the anniversary ring, if you're killing fast enough for 30k there won't be enough mobs around to hold it for more than 30 minutes. Everyone knows that's a BS claim.

Corsair + RDM + BRD/NIN + 3x DD. No rings involved. You just need good kill speed and the ability to pull and hold multiple enemies.

I've been in parties where the XP/hr parsed tipped well over 30K/hour, but that rate isn't generally maintainable. 25K/hour is. 30K/hour sustained is doable if everyone's properly merited.

Oh and you guys can keep speculating all you like, it's really not worth the effort to convince you all. So go on keep guessing on shit that you don't know anything about instead of leveling the job and trying it out.

I should level /DNC so I can earn 20K/hour on RDM when I'm earning 25-30K/hr with RDM/WHM? Mmkay. If you say so.


Icemage

[Richie]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Tipping xp/hour on a parse isn't the same as earning X amount in a 1 hour period. I got 40k/hour on trolls by your standard.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Many of the completely false claims in this thread such as "you won't ever get enough tp" and "red mages are too busy casting to swing" were already discredited here: FFXI Forums - RDM/DNC? - Killing Ifrit

Well, I've gone through it. Mixed in with a lot of immature flamming (e.g. xxxfag , fagxxx, xxxtardxxx, etc.), what it comes down to is that:

- Apparently, RDM/DNC with Joyuese works well for meriting Greater Colibri; there are one or two collaborating accounts of RDM/DNC able to keep up Haste x5 and Refresh x1, and no need to dip into Convert every time the timer is up.
- Richie/Richietaru claims it's the best support job for Trolls, but with fewer details. (If there are collaborating accounts, I missed them.)
- Reduce amount of curing needed by using Drain Samba, and use the zero cast time Waltz to provide better safety.

Did not touch on if /DNC would work for pre-merit levels. Also, it's unclear if Joyeuse is a requirement or just nice to have.

* * *

If I may, the consensus so far should be:
1. Works for merit party at Greater Colibri camp.
2. Relies heavily on Joyeuse and prevents staff use; unknown if usable without Joyeuse.
3. Waltz is faster then Cure, therefore safer (when RDM/DNC has TP).

Personally, the idea of not being able to use staves is very disturbing. Also, the community should heavily discourage RDMs without Joyeuse from trying RDM/DNC at this point in time, unless it's an LS/friend party.

[Celeal]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

To Richie:

After reading the post from KI, I believe RDM/DNC works for you and your party, but i doubt it would work for an average RDM in an average pick-up party:

Ideal merit party TP-burn setup, RDM/DNC with joy-toy, +34 acc, with a BRD and his song, and I assume the entire party is compose of skillful players with top notch gear too.

If any condition from above is missing.... IMHO the requirement is high for an average player.

When you say "leveling the job and trying it out," I guess it would be a mix result --- some will succeed, some will fail.

Just my 2 gil~