RDM/DNC rehashed

[Celeal]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Oh, and not using offensive spells means no enfeebs. Those of you who really love the concept of mage/DNC may want to level a WHM/DNC instead--that seems like a (slightly) better fit. (Hey, WHM has B+ skill in club!)

Or level up DNC as a main job instead..... (' A ')

Added:

It is too bad that Stutter Step:

Dance

* Lower target's magic resistance. If successful, you will earn a finishing move.
* Obtained: Dancer Level 40
* TP Required: 10%
* Recast Time: 00:15


Is at DNC Level 40. Or else RDM/DNC may have a chance~

[Aliekber]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Oh, and I did read through that thread on Alla.. it was funny. Your arguements are funny. ^^ But, since you're promoting Rdm/Dnc... along with Glued, check out his melee gear he's vouching for Rdm melee with. I'll give you another hint, it's not heavy on the acc side.

I've given Glued's stuff a cursory glance, but not much of a thorough look. The main reason I even bothered posting at all was to correct Sabaron's claim that RDM/DNC is worthless in 95% of parties. So I wouldn't say I'm doing anything along with Glued, I'm just advocating RDM/DNC.

And Starfox's arguements explaining why feeding the mob tp are so very valid too.

I'm assuming that you meant "why feeding the mob tp is bad"? Sorry, I can only do so much with sentence fragments. Unless you're going to suggest that feeding a mob tp "are so very valid too." FYI, being condescending goes two ways, cupcake.

In response to your, ahem, "statement", if you would invite a DNC main, you shouldn't have any issue inviting a RDM/DNC geared the same, as they will feed about the same amount of TP, and the RDM/DNC has more versatility than the DNC, and, factually, more curing power than a RDM/WHM. It may be that RDM/DNC will find its place in 3-4 member parties where they will melee, which SE has repeatedly stated was the intended place for DNC, I don't know, but to say that RDM/DNC is the new lolCombination is quite premature at this point.

Ironically, you've not grasped why people say no to Rdm/Dnc. How about this.. you feed the mob TP, which makes the mob do more WS's, more pecking flurries, more snatch morsels and more feather tickles. Which in turn hurts your party's output also... or doesn't it in your world? Because you won't be hitting hard enough to make a dent in it's HP without a decent set of gear... and with your half arsed gear, you''re *just* breaking 75% acc, but hitting weakly. Not that any of the melee Rdm fans would realise the importance of that though. So, your cures are weaker, as are your hits, and.. you don't get to WS, and if you ever have to sleep a link, well - your TP is gone then too.

I understand perfectly well why people say that, I just want it tested, and also acknowledged that it can work if it does (I think it will). You still don't know if the extra curing power will balance out with the extra WSes. And if you really need a staff to land Sleep on Colibri links, then do what you have to do.

Shit, Rdm/Dnc must be the new win sj of choice. Bad DoT, inefficient cures hp/mp or tp ratio, feeding mobs more TP than the dedicated DD do,

I call BS on that. No way a RDM is going to feed more TP than the other jobs, the Haste cycle alone assures that.

so making more WS's on the melee, and generally reminding me why I kick pickup Rdm's who melee.

Again, if the extra curing power is greater than the increased damage, then it's worth it.

And as for the Rdm's who want mage gear? I'd pick *any* one of them to support a meripo over some pickup Rdm/Dnc because, they appreciate what extra healing drain bad DD is on a tank or DD.

How shocking, you'd invite LS members you know over someone you didn't.

So even with your extra cures you can make, guess what - you're the reason they need them. Unless you're getting say Monk's Roll from a Corsair.. and whatever other joke setup you wish to provide.

And if the curing power provided by /DNC is greater and faster than the additional damage the extra TP causes, then why does it matter as long as it doesn't slow down the party?

Oh, and another thing, since you're only gearing for Acc, do you have any idea of the actual damage per hit you'll do? Please provide a genuine attack figure, as I can see you nicely hitting for crap damage without enough attack.. oh, wait.. no, you somehow magically get a full attack set too, and still have space for full Rdm gear and.. so on.

I'm not gearing for anything, my /DNC isn't leveled up yet. I'll let you know when I do try it out in a party. Also, as long as the curing power overcomes the extra damage done, then whatever damage I do, even if I'm only geared for +ACC with no +ATK is greater than the 0 damage I'd do just standing back doing nothing. Also, Box step stacks with Dia II/III, turning a Dia II into a Dia III, and a Dia III into a Dia III+, so even if I can only get one in per mob, that's a 5% damage increase for everyone else (i.e. 1/3 of a Haste spell), resulting in faster kills.

Take care sunshine, I'd much rather have a Rdm/standard sj who I could take to Mamool, Kindred, Colibri, etc.. than a Rdm/Dnc who can only take Colibri, which only supports two decent parties... and right now, you're looking to be validating why that merit party sporting three DD three Support jobs have just pushed you out, because you're having downtime from making too many TP moves that you could have not had otherwise, or a sub par DD that you could have otherwise put a Bard in or Cor or genuine DD and the Rdm taken the support role which they excel at.

First of all RDM/DNC is support. Not DD. Melee != DD. You have to have understood this to understand DNC mains, so I think it should be perfectly clear already.

Secondly, it's not as if I can't switch to another sub depending on the camp I go to. /DNC isn't for everything, I said as much in my first post here, when I said that /DNC is superior in cases where many status cures are not needed, thus implying that /WHM is superior in cases that do need lots of status cures.

Yes, it has one real use - which is Colibri, and to be honest - I'd rather have a stable choice of support Rdm/Whm/Sch/Blm, who can make my party excel, so we can do interesting stuff than a sub par one who wants to hit things because he thinks he should be frontline. Oh yeah, it's your $12.95 a month or whatever... I'ma go bed now.

Thank you for finally admitting it. Your invite choices are your own, it's your $12.95/mo so clearly I'm not going to dictate who you can and can't invite.

But I find it interesting that you'd rather have a RDM/Mage, none of whom's debuffs can land without a risk of reflecting, when you could have a RDM/DNC, whose -Def debuff can be cast simultaneously with Dia--or instead of it, if you're that worried about Reflections--and will never be Reflected because it isn't magic. Even at a 75% proc rate (it's based on main-hand accuracy), Box Step is worth it.

Like I think happened with Starfox over on Allah, he had enough of trying to explain why not. I've just realised I repeated almost exactly the same principles as he did, and if a Rdm who seems to be well versed in melee, and a melee who knows how mobs work saying, you're slowing down a party aren't enough... then, nothing ever will.

Please. Starfox is so obsessed with RDM/NIN that you'd be hard pressed to get him to consider anything but it. This is a guy who claims he can out-DD the likes of Black Belt MNKs and Ridill WARs, and then conveniently never posts parses "because that's not the kind of guy he is." Trust me, Starfox is the last person you want to be allying yourself with if you want to maintain credibility.

[BurningPanther]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Are the people who argue TP feeding aware that DNC only has(at 75), 6 more skill in Dagger, and 40 less in Sword(and Hand-to-Hand)? While Acc Traits account for the lack of skill, there's nothing inherently improving their damage output. Isn't any action by DNC TP-feeding as well?

I suppose they're excused by melee being a necessity in their job performance, but then, if mob TP was really the issue, you just wouldn't invite anything lacking in the accepted levels of damage.




On an unrelated note, is there anyone here who has actually tried RDM/DNC in group play? I think it's important to hear from them.

[Sabaron]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Ok... I'm going to copy the thing in Allah that I'm assuming you're calling your "proof" just so everyone can see it. This is not a proof and it doesn't address many of the concerns that have been brought up.

1. The RDM/DNC idea breaks down anytime you are exposed to AoE status magic and high-damage AoE magic and attacks from mobs like wyvern, puk, most beastmen, dhalmel, kindred, skeletons, ghosts, imps, tainted, spiders, diremites, tigers, flies, marids, cockatices, and probably quite a few I'm forgetting, but that leaves you with the same weird-ass mob that allows for basically any sub-job combination for backliners... The inimitable Colibri. The introduction of another mp sink that is not dealing a requisite amount of damage in comparison to the amount of damage it will take causes a decrease in your efficiency. Your "proof" doesn't account for this.

2. The RDM/DNC in the example below isn't using any of the following spells: Regen, Haste, Paralyze, Slow, Dia, Blind, or Silence--spells that Red Mages use very frequently (especially the first two). Of course, you can't enfeeble Colibri, and that really looks like the only camp you're going to if you're RDM/DNC. Why don't we add a 3-man Haste cycle to the mix because if you're not Hasting, you're decreasing the efficiency of your DD group.

3. The OP is comparing a RDM/WHM to a RDM/DNC. The front line RDM Healer I advocate and have used with great success is RDM/BLU (Burgundy Mage if you like). Wild Carrot is comparable to Cure III and is more MP efficient and the cap is much much softer. Assuming that you're "light on +MND" and can't really push your Wild Carrot past Cure III (you don't really need a lot of +MND to beat a Cure III with a Carrot): Cure III: 190/46 = 4.13 hp/mp, Carrot: 190/37 = 5.13 hp/mp, 5.13/4.13 = 1.24 or 24% more efficient minimum. Therefore, if RDM/DNC's output is "equivalent" to RDM/WHM then RDM/BLU is better than RDM/DNC, no? Remember, also, that RDM/BLU is more versatile than RDM/DNC. A RDM/BLU can backline without losing his ability to cure which means that RDM/BLU can rest and swap gear without compromising his support role. This notwithstanding the fact that RDM/BLU can WS and use Vorpal Blade if he swaps in his melee gears when up front. A RDM/DNC cannot disengage from melee without losing efficiency. I don't think RDM/DNC can beat RDM/BLU even in a Colibri party which is the only XP party your combo seems fit for. Remember, that since RDM/BLU can backline, you can use it in non-status camps to improve cure efficiency. The only true drawback (in non-status camps) is the self-target onry-ness of Healing Breeze and it's long casting time.

4. You're requiring me to present "proof" when you yourself have not. You have no concrete evidence that what you're proposing is in fact true. The mathematics in your "proof" are rather slapdash and do not, in any way, constitute proof. Therefore, why should I be held to a higher standard than you, yourself?

5. I'd much rather have a PUP/DNC main healer than a RDM/DNC main healer.

6. I might continue later, but I want to watch my movie...

You want to go down that path? Let's shall.

I did make one error above, a fencepost error. The actual number of Cure3 in 1hr should be:
(900+(900+800-160)*6)/46=220.43

Because you start with 900MP, and gain 800-160MP every 10min for 60 min (x6), plus convert 6 times for additional 900MP each, I forgot to add the initial 900. So 220 cure3 is the maximum a RDM/WHM with 900MP post-convert can accomplish in an hour if the only thing he's doing is casting Cure3 and self- Refresh+Sanction only.

The maximum amount of Cure3 that can be casted by a RDM/DNC is:
(500+(500+800-160)*6)/46=159.56

Because you are meleeing as a /dnc, your usable MP is somewhere around 500MP if you're wearing melee equipment. I'll also be nice and leave the post-convert Cure4s out of it (since I also didn't calculate it for rdm/whm), so he can do 159 Cure3, which is currently a deficit of around 61 Cure3's.

Cure3 takes 2.5sec with nonFC, Refresh takes 5sec with nonFC. With the additional 2sec or so delay after casting a spell but before you swing again (ability delay), I'll calculate Cure3's "cost" as 4sec, Refresh's as 6sec. We also need to factor in the time it takes to convert+self cure. I've found it usually takes me 20sec or so to disengage from mob, move away a bit, convert, Cure4 twice (minimum), then run back to the mob and engage. The only unknown is how many Waltz you can do, and turns out it's about 100.

24*6=144 sec for casting Refresh
159*4=636 sec for casting Cure3
20*6=120 sec for Convert+Self Cure
100*2=200 sec for using Waltz

(3600-144-636-120-200)*4.7*.75/2.5/35=100.71

So the RDM/DNC can do 159 Cure3+100 Curing Waltz 2 assuming that he's pretty much engaged all the time except for when he needs to convert, does so 6 times, and self Refresh+Sanction like above. Assuming that both does about the same, it becomes around 259 Cure3 worth.

HOWEVER, a RDM/WHM can use Light/Apollo for 10% more effective cure. So his is effectively curing for 220*1.1=242 Cure3 worth. Again, both are curing until they are out of MP, and doing everything else minimally. Even then, a RDM/DNC comes out ahead by only 17 Cure3 or so.

If a BRD or a COR is in the party and singing Ballad or rolling Evoker's, assuming the average is 3/tick, brings an additional 3600MP worth to be used for Cure3.

3600/46=78.26 Cure3

So even with 1 more additional MP's worth of refresh is more than enough to close the less-than-10% difference between total curing. Dalmatica, Vermy, Morrigan, or Chapeau. Not only that, even in the unlikely scenario that the RDM/DNC got more refresh ticks, by casting that 78 cures, his ability to waltz goes down.

(2500-4*78)*4.7*.75/2.5/35=88.14

Having to recast 78 more Cure3 just lost his ability to do 11 or so Waltz, because he couldn't gain TP. So by the time you're comparing a RDM/WHM with Dual Ballad vs. RDM/DNC with Dual Ballad, they're curing for the same exact amount.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Are the people who argue TP feeding aware that DNC only has(at 75), 6 more skill in Dagger, and 40 less in Sword(and Hand-to-Hand)? While Acc Traits account for the lack of skill, there's nothing inherently improving their damage output. Isn't any action by DNC TP-feeding as well?

Dancer has, oh, three Subtle Blow traits going for it and has access only to lower-end daggers compared to THF, if I want be concerned about anyone feeding a mob TP, they're pretty low on the list.

On an unrelated note, is there anyone here who has actually tried RDM/DNC in group play? I think it's important to hear from them.

This is only a weak attempt to discredit those who have presented valid arguments and it didn't work the first time the challenge was issued. We've levelled DNC and most here on the subject have also levelled RDM a fair degree. If you honestly think /DNC would be a practical party sub, then you don't understand RDM's party role at all.

Back when I played this job there was not a second to rest, hardly a moment to sit down for MP and these days there is even less time, but RDMs are often treated to a BRD or COR or both at their side.

So again, what are we TPing for, that is, beyond the lameshit excuse to melee? You shouldn't be running out of MP with two/three layers of refresh, convert and sanction. If you are, hang the pimp hat up.

[Aliekber]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Ok... I'm going to copy the thing in Allah that I'm assuming you're calling your "proof" just so everyone can see it. This is not a proof and it doesn't address many of the concerns that have been brought up.

1. The RDM/DNC idea breaks down anytime you are exposed to AoE status magic and high-damage AoE magic and attacks from mobs like wyvern, puk, most beastmen, dhalmel, kindred, skeletons, ghosts, imps, tainted, spiders, diremites, tigers, flies, marids, cockatices, and probably quite a few I'm forgetting, but that leaves you with the same weird-ass mob that allows for basically any sub-job combination for backliners... The inimitable Colibri. The introduction of another mp sink that is not dealing a requisite amount of damage in comparison to the amount of damage it will take causes a decrease in your efficiency. Your "proof" doesn't account for this.

True, it's not in Starfox's proof, but it's stated earlier on in the thread, and has been taken as an assumption by that point. You're correct that AoE debuffs negate /DNC's usefulness, I've never tried to argue against /WHM being the superior option there. RDM/DNC's melee damage is described as negligible in comparison to the damage of the DD's, and for good reason. Your Cures could get you hate, there's no way your melee damage will, so this isn't really an issue.

2. The RDM/DNC in the example below isn't using any of the following spells: Regen, Haste, Paralyze, Slow, Dia, Blind, or Silence--spells that Red Mages use very frequently (especially the first two). Of course, you can't enfeeble Colibri, and that really looks like the only camp you're going to if you're RDM/DNC.

Yes. However, RDM/DNC can enfeeble Colibri, with Quickstep[-Eva] (if you want to bother) and Box Step[-Def] (I probably would bother).

3. The OP is comparing a RDM/WHM to a RDM/DNC. The front line RDM Healer I advocate and have used with great success is RDM/BLU (Burgundy Mage if you like). Wild Carrot is comparable to Cure III and is more MP efficient and the cap is much much softer. Assuming that you're "light on +MND" and can't really push your Wild Carrot past Cure III (you don't really need a lot of +MND to beat a Cure III with a Carrot): Cure III: 190/46 = 4.13 hp/mp, Carrot: 190/37 = 5.13 hp/mp, 5.13/4.13 = 1.24 or 24% more efficient minimum. Therefore, if RDM/DNC's output is "equivalent" to RDM/WHM then RDM/BLU is better than RDM/DNC, no? Remember, also, that RDM/BLU is more versatile than RDM/DNC. A RDM/BLU can backline without losing his ability to cure which means that RDM/BLU can rest and swap gear without compromising his support role. This notwithstanding the fact that RDM/BLU can WS and use Vorpal Blade if he swaps in his melee gears when up front. A RDM/DNC cannot disengage from melee without losing efficiency. I don't think RDM/DNC can beat RDM/BLU even in a Colibri party which is the only XP party your combo seems fit for. Remember, that since RDM/BLU can backline, you can use it in non-status camps to improve cure efficiency. The only true drawback (in non-status camps) is the self-target onry-ness of Healing Breeze and it's long casting time.

You're preaching to the choir on this one, I have also used RDM/BLU to great success in frontline, backline, duo, and solo, due to the softer cap on Blue Magic's curing spells. I hadn't thought to compare /DNC to /BLU, considering /WHM to be the sub to beat, however I can see that the argument of /BLU vs. /DNC does have merit on non-status-effect mobs. However, /BLU doesn't provide status cures at all, while /DNC does at 70+, so for those five levels you can fight mobs that do light status effects as /DNC, as you can Healing Waltz every 15 seconds as TP allows.

I'll have to give this more thought before I can give any semblance of a definitive response, though.

4. You're requiring me to present "proof" when you yourself have not. You have no concrete evidence that what you're proposing is in fact true. The mathematics in your "proof" are rather slapdash and do not, in any way, constitute proof. Therefore, why should I be held to a higher standard than you, yourself?

What would you like? I'll provide a parse as soon as I do this myself, if you'd like. At the moment, conjecture is all I have aside from the math, and I don't see any real issues with Starfox's math, which I have thus far deemed sufficient to convince me.

As far as burst curebombing being superior on RDM/DNC compared to RDM/WHM, I would think the simple fact that RDM/DNC has two separate 'Cure III'-ish recast timers, and can cast Curing Waltz II and Cure III at the exact same time, allowing it to curebomb twice as fast would make it obvious. I suppose I can provide a parse of this, if you really insist, but I think it's plain to see.

Regarding curing over time, as I said, I don't see any problems with Starfox's math. If anything, he gave the advantage to /WHM by not including Sambas, and not including the time saved by Dancecasting.

Finally, about the burden of proof, you made a claim, and offered, to my knowledge, no evidence for it. I made a counter-claim, and provided what I consider to be sufficient evidence to my point. You're questioning my math; I'll try to clarify anything necessary. As far as I'm concerned, that's how things are supposed to work. You either accept my claim, question my evidence, or provide counter-evidence. You chose to question my evidence, which is fine. Unless you're saying I had no right to contradict you in the first place, we'll come to the truth eventually (although I would argue that we are already there). I have nothing personal against you, I just disagreed with the statement you made, and you're more than free to ask me to provide evidence for any claim I make which I don't provide evidence for (although I do try to always do so, I'm only human after all and can make mistakes); I will do my best to oblige you. I wouldn't want to become a hypocrite.

5. I'd much rather have a PUP/DNC main healer than a RDM/DNC main healer.

I can't argue with opinion, although I'm nor sure why you would prefer this, considering the benefits of RDM main.

6. I might continue later, but I want to watch my movie...

Fair enough, I will be awaiting any additional queries you have, though I might not get to them tonight.

[Sabaron]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

I see you took a lick of point #5. That's my favorite one partly because it has no supporting documentation in the initial post. Why do I like PUP/DNC better than RDM/DNC?

1. PUP is always front-line. It can be nothing else.
2. The Soulsoother has Status Cures.
3. The PUP/DNC has a better TP gain rate and while RDM/DNC may be able to cast Cure III / Healing Waltz II in rapid succession, the maton can actually cast simultaneously.
4. The maton doesn't mistarget...ever.
5. The maton has a virtually limitless supply of MP.
6. The maton can only cast on a relatively long 23 second timer, but the PUP/DNC can back it up with a cure every 15 seconds. (It is currently not listed what effects various Ice attachments have on the recast timer--I'm quite interested in the combination of the Optic Fiber and the Mana Booster as a combination since Optic Fiber is a Light attachment and can be used to increase the power of the Mana Booster with a hypothetical maneuver group of Light Light Ice or Light Ice Ice.
7. PUP is never short of TP and has no need to swap weapons.
8. Cure IV by 50th level.

Sure, there are a few holes in PUP/DNC, but as far as a front-line healer, I would much rather have one of these than a RDM/DNC.

Unlike some of the other people who always mention the "feeding the mob TP" thing, I don't go that far. As far as I've seen in a Greater Colibri Party (with my Accuracy gear on RDM/BLU), a RDM's damage per hit output is generally similar to a PLD or BLU with misses accounting for the bulk of the damage loss. Missing doesn't give mobs TP, but it does hurt your TP gain rate.

[Richie]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Would everyone that hasn't done rdm/dnc is a merit pt please shut up? I'm so sick of explaining it I'm not even going to bother. It works, 20k+ colibri, 15k troll, 20k+ mamool. Stop the speculation and just take the word of the people that are actually out there and doing it. Level it, gear it and try it or stfu.

[arkaine23]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

I get close to 90% accuracy on G. Colibri. They eat my sushi now and then, but that's because I'm doing solid damage as RDM/NIN with haste/acc build and Blau/Joy. A RDM/DNC is not going to do nearly as much damage as a RDM/NIN but will probably still be high on enmity from Waltzes. It should not be the main-healer IMO. Spam Bream Sushi. Its cheap. RDM is not going to be the mob's target most of the time anyway.

TP gain is fine. I WS fast enough as RDM/NIN even doing 5 hastes and 2 refreshes and Dia III's. For /DNC its more ideal to have less of a casting load of course, but you can cast immediately after starting a Dance. Your melee gets paused for dancing, so its the ideal time to squeeze in spells.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Would everyone that hasn't done rdm/dnc is a merit pt please shut up? I'm so sick of explaining it I'm not even going to bother. It works, 20k+ colibri, 15k troll, 20k+ mamool. Stop the speculation and just take the word of the people that are actually out there and doing it. Level it, gear it and try it or stfu.

As far as I can tell, you made three posts in the last two weeks, and this is the first one RDM/DNC. Isn't it a bit early to be complaining about having to explain it multiple times when you haven't even done it once?

Anyway, I take it you've used RDM/DNC? Why don't you address some specific shortcomings raised and give us better understanding of how to use RDM/DNC, instead of just telling people to "stfu"?

On weapon switch and TP loss:
- Silence won't land well on Imps and Mamool Ja mages without Wind Staff, and it's important to land that.
- Trolls often require RDM to help nuke down Diamondhide to keep chain. Do you just cast without staves? (IMO, that would waste MP and possibly risk losing chain.)
- Troll RDM and PLD need to be silenced. Can you land silence without Wind Staff?

Other concerns I have:
- Mamool Ja NIN is hard to control without Sleepga/Stonea/Banishga to get rid of its Utusemi's copy images. How do you deal with that on /DNC when puller brings back links?
- How do you deal with AoE damage or status effects when out of TP?
- Timer on Divine Waltz is 10 seconds, and cost is 40TP. How do you make sure you always have enough TP and can use it fast enough?
- Which party setups in which camps enabled you to get the kind of exp rate you've tossed out?

* * *

[A RDM/DNC] should not be the main-healer IMO.

Maybe this is the key? If there's another mage on main healer duty, RDM/DNC won't exactly cripple of the party. Then again, a RDM/anything won't likely cripple a party in that case, except maybe on Imps. (I average getting silenced 2-3 times per Imp party per hour. No, I'm not interested in carrying 6 stacks of Echo Drops and melee up front--I'll warp out when I run through two stacks, thank-you-very-much.)

Nice thing about RDM + WHM in party is that the mages can alternate resting time and cover each other on cures, allowing for much smoother recovery when things go wrong, often without breaking chain. No one ever complains about getting Raise III instead of my weak R1, either.

Anyway, I don't think anyone here believes RDM/DNC is worthless--just /DNC is worth less in most situations than some other support jobs.

[Celeal]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Would everyone that hasn't done rdm/dnc is a merit pt please shut up? I'm so sick of explaining it I'm not even going to bother. It works, 20k+ colibri, 15k troll, 20k+ mamool. Stop the speculation and just take the word of the people that are actually out there and doing it. Level it, gear it and try it or stfu.

I would assume that you already have merit points before you try RDM/DNC, and you only tried RDM/DNC in merit parties?

I am not trying to say you experience is invalid, but it may not apply to parties below level 70+.

P.S. : Please include more detail from your RDM/DNC in merit parties, more information is always helpful.

[Sabaron]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Would everyone that hasn't done rdm/dnc is a merit pt please shut up? I'm so sick of explaining it I'm not even going to bother. It works, 20k+ colibri, 15k troll, 20k+ mamool. Stop the speculation and just take the word of the people that are actually out there and doing it. Level it, gear it and try it or stfu.

Yawn... post parses with your party setup or stop being a troll... You certainly haven't "explained" anything here at DiV--perhaps you would be so gracious as to provide us with a link or copy of your previous post extolling the virtues of RDM/DNC with such blinding proof that our eyes will burn right out of our sockets, hmm? There better not be another main healer in the pt either b/c that's precisely the point of the thread (now)--to replace a RDM/WHM main with just a RDM/DNC--to have you in a DD slot could mean that instead of "20k+ colibri" I could have "25k+ colibri". How does not having experience with RDM/DNC invalidate hypothesis? I could just as easily say "Would everyone that has a bias in favor of RDM/DNC please shut up?" You are biased in favor of RDM/DNC by virtue of levelling DNC just for the combination. You want it to work, so even if another combination would be better, you might be oblivious to it's superiority by virtue of the fact that you haven't actually compared the two.

The whole point is to compare two items not just say "RDM/DNC is good b/c I was in a pt that got good XP". If you did RDM/DNC in a troll pt and got 15kph, how much could a RDM/WHM or RDM/BLU have gotten in the same time frame? You have also ignored the fact that it is being recommended that RDM/DNC be used at 60+ not just in meripo camps. You have also neglected to inform us of any setup, gearing, or any other circumstances present in your XP parties that might be above normal (e.g. Joyeuse, Blau, Mandau, Dusk armor, merits, etc.).

As far as meripo is concerned, it's also a very specialized case. In many meripos the subjob choice for everyone isn't going to significantly impact the chain level--this subjob freedom is reflected in the ability to have everyone sub /NIN just for shadows (which is done is some meripos). Therefore, in a meripo, your sub job has virtually no impact on the chain level anyway, so you could just as well sub PUP and not significantly impact the chain level. In fact, in a Colibri party, a RDM/WHM can confidently melee and not impact the chain level, but if you try that at the Skoffin camp, you're not going to like it. The question is... is RDM/DNC in general more or less effective than alternative subs such as the backline RDM/WHM and the frontline support RDM/BLU? Under what conditions can your RDM/DNC outperform a RDM/WHM? RDM/BLU? RDM/NIN? Are there any?

The placebo test is this: Use the quick-switch trick to remove your subjob and party as RDM75/Nothing. I bet you'll find that you can still get similar XP rates in all of the areas you just mentioned. If you get 20kph while meleeing Colibri with RDM75/Nothing does that mean that RDM75/Nothing is better than RDM/WHM? Your XP/hr rate in a meripo has very little to do with one member's subjob choice. Hell, people even bring funky weapons to them--PLD/NIN with a Greatsword for instance is perfectly viable in a coli camp... Meripo is certainly a very specialized testing environment.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Third Time since its the key question our pro-/DNC RDMs seem to like avoiding:

If you're not running out of MP, why do you need TP for Cures?

Just answer the damn question.

But then, maybe you just don't like the answer.

Its already been well-estabilished that for TP burn and colibri parties that enfeebling is not that important for these mobs because they die too fast. No point in burning MP for that or TP for that matter. DNC would enfeeble only as a means of building Finishing moves. Things like Reverse Flourish, Animated Flourish and Wild Flourish could still be useful for them, plus they must TP to cure at all.

RDM - especially with BRD or COR in tow - will not have many MP issues and if a DNC was present, they'll have even more of it. So what does RDM/DNC bring to the party aside from a lame excuse to pull out your sword?

I can tell you right that as COR, if my PT has four DDs, I'm dropping from melee to pull most likely. This means as good as my damage is on COR (and trust me, no RDM can compete with a COR/RNG's melee DoT), I can also go without doing it to play another role for the party. Most often, this can be pulling.

And I can tell you right now I'd make damn better use of /DNC and when the sub is done I'll be happy to put my money where my mouth is and put it to the test in PT. I'll tell you right now I know that its better that going COR/WHM or RDM/DNC.

RDM casts 90% of the time, you don't have time to TP. TPing is all a PUP does and CORs don't have much else to do between buffs if they're not already pulling. Most other jobs are going to want to funnel thier TP into damage, but my job can make the sacrifice and I promise you my job can handily outdamage yours in melee.

So if I can omit my damage and the party can keep the chains, so can you. /DNC is rendered useless by RDM's constant casting. You won't have time to get the TP for cures because you already cure rather effectively and shouldn't get low on MP at all.

[Aliekber]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Third Time since its the key question our pro-/DNC RDMs seem to like avoiding:

If you're not running out of MP, why do you need TP for Cures?

I'll throw out an idea on this one. If your TP cures can keep everyone healed up, and you have so much MP to spare you don't know what to do with it, then you could always nuke to speed up kills.

Obviously, this isn't an option on Colibri, but if Richie's parses can back up his claim that RDM/DNC works on Trolls and Mamool, then perhaps by doing this with his extra MP (assuming he's one of the RDM/DNC who have tested it and said they never needed to Convert), it could increase his xp/hour.

As for myself, the reason I'm interested in RDM/DNC is because I think it has potential and would like to see it pushed to its limits and tested thoroughly before people dismiss it out-of-hand. After all, if nobody were willing to experiment, we'd still be fighting IT++ for 6k an hour, and getting excited about hitting Chain 5.

[Aliekber]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Just had an idea while out for lunch. Theoretical party setup for RDM/DNC in camps other than Colibri.

WHM/NIN - Main Healer (Bear with me, I'll explain)
RDM/DNC - Puller
DD
DD
DD
DD

So here's how I would envision this working:

RDM + WHM start by Refresh/Hasting the party fully, as quickly as possible, then RDM leaves to pull.

RDM arrives with the mob, DDs take hate, RDM engages for 2 hits for 10% TP (1 if Joyeuse double-hit procs, or if Aspir Samba is already up), and inflicts Aspir Samba on the mob while Hasting or Refreshing 1 party member. If mob is Mage-type, Wind Staff::Silence. Run off and pull again.

The WHM/NIN makes sure to keep shadows up while meleeing with DW clubs (KClub may be overdoing it, but I'm sure people will want to try it) for MP, and main heals the party, tossing out Hexa-Strikes as needed. The reason I say WHM/NIN are: 1) Shadows 2) DW for Aspir Samba 3) Status effect cures.

Aside: For those of you who are unfamiliar with how Aspir Samba is calculated, it is based on delay (mainly), and oddly enough, it counts the increased delay from dual wielding on both weapons, it doesn't divide the delay for both. The upshot of all this is that while a single wielded Sword/Club + Aspir Samba ~= MP recovery rate of Mage's Ballad II, DW Swords/Clubs both increases the amount of MP recovered per hit, while increasing the number of hits as well, and gives MP back something closer to the rate of Refresh + Mage's Ballad II. This means that if you Refresh the White Mage every fifth pull, and always inflict Aspir Samba before pulling the next mob, your WHM will consistently be under an MP refresh rate comparable to Refreshx2 + Mage's Ballad II, a whopping ~8MP/tick (depending on WHM hit rate). 9, if they're using a Noble's Tunic, Vermillion Cloak, etc. At Colibri camp, you could probably even get away with a PLD/NIN main healing the party while doing some damage (although you will have to give up some Hastes a WHM could have cast).

In this situation, RDM gears all-out for +ACC, with enough +STR/+ATK to make sure he consistently hits for at least 1, in order to gain TP. His TP contribution to the mob is negligible, as he only hits the mob twice, at most, so damage should not be a concern as long as enough is done to gain TP.

Why is this worth considering? It should allow a reasonably fast-paced burn for a RDM with /DNC leveled whenever he wants, whether or not a BRD or COR is available, as WHM75 are plentiful, and there are always DD available.

Thoughts?