RDM/DNC rehashed

[Glued]

sorry for posting a whole new read i couldnt find the original RDM/DNC post

Several weeks ago i toyed with the notion of rdm/dnc, did some test and defunct it.
well i recentyly dinged 69 onrdm and got dnc to 37 and have done some more tests bit in party and out of party and this is what i have found.
My first implications when testing this job were a biased look at what it does for the RDM not the party and have since gone back and looked at this again

IN Party

Traditionally called the melee mage, but i like Hybrid rdm better so i will use that

This set up allows a hybrid mage to do more for its party while on the front lines, while not negating from requiring a whm for main heal (RDM,SMN are not main heal imo) a hybrid rdm/dnc allows for greater MP conservation, as well as greater party assistance. Provided their is no other dancer or /dnc in the party your role will be a front line eraser saving the whm precious MP. This extra MP saved can extend chains or save lives, in addition to refresh you have already increased MP conservation for the party.

In addition to being a frontline eraser you also posses the ability to wake en-masse with divine waltz, instead of a whm casting a curaga one cure spell to you will wake the party, saving MP more and increasing the chain or survivability of t party.

Another party bonus is the Sambas, these allow you to replenish party members HP/MP depening on your choice and what the party needs, providinga prepetual refresh or regen to all party members.

As well as the steps and flourishes, lowering a targets evaision and def, is invaluable as it stacks to diaII or allows us to use BIO II and keep defense down as well. Animated flourish +Stoneskin/Phalanx can provide a quick 2nd voke if the NIN tanks shadows are hard to get back up, saving MP once more partying without the use of cures as much.

In the event a weapon skillchain is called out and you are required to open or close you can freely use your stocked TP to do so as you still have all your spells to assist the party in a frontlie hybrid role.

As for equipment setups it does require a decent acc setup to acheive respectable amounts of TP if you plan to do this you require 75%-80% minimum hit rate, having borrowed some gear from friends to test this i had roughly an 80-83% rate and was building tp at a respectable rate. (borrowed a SH, PCC, 2 woodsman rings, chivalrous chain, and a few other peies with ATK and ACC +)

recomandations for weaponry are your call, JoyToy would be best for TP building but if thats not available like to me at 69 i just went with a low delay dagger.

Solo

Soloing with rdm/dnc has allowed me to do things most cant, rdm/nin may still be greater because of its invincible nature, however /dnc holds its own perks as well.

Basically i solo in campaign now just to test this out and see what i am capable of. the multiple cureing traits etc are a life saver, silence = death for a rdm soloing the lack of shadows isnt to important as most mobs like to toss out AoE spells which wipe them anyhow.

My experiences with /DNCin campaign have led me to some decent experience, no wehre near what i get rdm/blm but its fun soling the mobs there and have people checking you.

Keeping SS up is not to hard of a chore if you know the trick to it, and TP is built immensly fast against these mobs, it takes a while to kill because of rdm crappy attack however it is possible. Personally i have not tested this against any NM's with the exception of WHM AF NM in fei'yin which i was able to trio with a whm a pld and myself rdm/dnc which was pretty nice seeing as it called for a party of 75's on the wiki.

anyhow i had to return my borrowed equipment and cant carry on with tests until i can either borrow it or i buy my own, will update solo and party section when i get more abilities to use

[Yellow Mage]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Personally, I'd rather have somebody else maining Dancer in the party than sub it myself. (Hellooo Stutter Step! Nice to meet you, Aspir Samba II!)

[Celeal]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

I think there are issues need to be address for RDM/DNC...

Does the RDM/DNC has time to swing the sword or dagger?

First, Daze effects from Samba works only if the DNC's (or /DNC's) weapon hits the mob. Although the Daze effect would linger on the mob for a few seconds, in order to continue the Samba, the RDM/DNC needs to keep hitting the mob. Given the amount of magic casting from a normal RDM, those competent ones who actually fulfill the party's expectation, can the RDM/DNC keep up with RDM's duty and Samba?

Note: Samba has a long execution time, a restricted timer (unable to switch different Samba back and forth). Also, only 1 food, 16 equipment slots, and B rank weapon skill for RDM.

BTW, if the RDM/DNC is using Samba, he is not going to use Enspell.

Another issue with Steps and Flourish.

When /DNC, each Steps only yield one finishing move (if I remember correctly), and each Steps needs 10~ TP (if I remember correctly). Stuff like Animated Flourish will require 2 finishing moves, and a typical sword or dagger a RDM can use (I am not referring to those rare/ex toys...) is yielding 4 ~ 6 TP per swing, if landed with non-zero damage.

I think RDM/DNC would actively use Steps only, but not Flourish.

There is a serious issue the TP consumption and recast timer with Waltz too.

With Refresh, Convert, and Cures, I don't see any reason why a RDM would want to /DNC and use those Waltz in the first place.... there are better subjob choices like /WHM or /SCH...

With all those time spending on magic casting and time required for TP gain, I imagine the RDM/DNC would need 90% ~ 95% of melee accuracy and very good magic accuracy (low magic resistance) in order to address the issue I mention from above.

[Sabaron]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Why are we doing this again?

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/red...-update-2.html

RDM/DNC is not viable in 95% of parties you establish. If you're going to be front-lining, why not go /BLU? It has up-front AoE cures that are very MP efficient. If you need to "conserve mp" for whatever task you're doing, you shouldn't be front-line anyway because you're obviously doing too much back-line work (healing) to merit front-line work.

I cannot think of a party situation where I'd rather have you RDM/DNC than any of the following:

RDM/DRK (Stunna)
RDM/BLU (Front-line healer/melee)
RDM/NIN (Kite)
RDM/WHM (Main heal)
RDM/BLM (Sleeper/Two-hour Nuker/Escape Artist)
RDM/BRD (Maximum Refresh)
RDM/SMN (Pet puller)

As for your "Front-line Eraser" fantasy, it's not great. You could be casting Erase. Healing Waltz can't remove Bard debuffs (yeah, I'm aware that they're rare) and it's on your 15 second Waltz timer so it cuts out any of your curing-type waltzes. If you're fighting status mobs, you should be /WHM and in the back. You're seriously going to say that being up front eating Paralyzga from a tiger and then getting interrupted when you're trying to use Healing Waltz is better than back-lining out of the line of fire?

--Add--

More on the Erase idea. By being on the front line, you are adding 1 to the number of Erases per cycle needed versus AoE monsters, so you (or the main healer) has to expend at least one Erase to cure you so you've wasted 15 seconds of recast time just by being up front when you could be in the back not wasting 15 seconds. It also requires an additional "casting time" expenditure and as /DNC consumes TP or worse--consumes the main healer's MP. Therefore, the only situation this is viable is in a single-target status effect situation. Are you going to say that saving a whole 18MP (the cost of 1 erase) every minute or so is worth losing the abilities you'll lose by taking /DNC? Even your melee damage suffers as a result of taking /DNC. I don't see anything truly redeemable about the combination--seriously.

Even on solo I think it's flaky. Why would you want to heal yourself with Waltzes, wasting your TP, when you could be using Utsusemi to deflect the attacks in the first place? Are Drain and Aspir so powerful that it makes it worthwhile to lose your Shadows? What about Cocoon? Can your /DNC abilities beat Cocoon, Wild Carrot, the ability to use Vorpal Blade? /BLU is the choice for heavy shadow wipers because of Cocoon's ability to significantly reduce damage from blows--it is especially powerful in conjunction with Phalanx against mobs that rely on a flurry of weak attacks where shadows come up short.

Silence should never = death. That's what Echo Drops are for.

[Aliekber]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

I'm sorry, Sabaron, but you're incorrect. Post-60 (where /DNC gives Curing Waltz II), in cases where heavy status-cures are not needed, just lots of curing, RDM/DNC can both out-burst-cure and outlast RDM/WHM over the long haul, even without Samba effects (i.e. it's still viable with DNC main in the party). Apparently new posters here can't post URLs, but if you go to the Allakhazam Red Mage forums, and look at the "Return of the Melee RDM" thread, the proof is there, on the last page (at the moment), written by an opponent of RDM/DNC who accidentally proved its superiority in this situation.

When no status cures are needed, RDM/DNC (with only 75% accuracy, at that) can at worst merely match RDM/WHM's curing ability. Introduce Samba effects, with a Joyeuse and a decent ACC/TP build, and there is no comparison. RDM/DNC wins by a landslide.

So it's useful in far more than 5% of situations, as you have stated. If you would like to continue to assert that statement that 95% of the time, other subs will outperform it, please provide evidence of your claim.

Edit: It's on the last page, not second to last; changed.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Aliekber, knowing quite how hard it can be for A ranked DD to hit 75% acc (without sushi on Colibri) makes me chuckle at Rdm's trying to.

Without either - exceptional melee gear or some madrigal's and decent gear, it won't happen. And it's only really useful on Colibri. Which to be frank - isn't a huge amount. Secondly, if your melee DD are good to fight without madrigals (rare, but happens), there is no way in hell I'd advise the Bards to gimp the real DD's damage output to sate a second rate DD's hit rate.

Third - do you really have the inventory space to carry round a *full* set of DD gear? As - on my DD jobs, I push my inventory... and I am well aware that decent Rdm's have real space problems. 8 staves, various swap pieces for everything, mnd set, int set, mab set, etc etc... you got the space for melee too now? Not saying it *can't* be done, but hell if I'm grabbing a pickup rdm to hope he can melee competently as well as keep a party running at full tilt.

Lastly - all the really good Rdm's in my LS (and we have 7 or 8) - seem to be much more interested in getting the decent mage type pieces, and are less focused on getting Joyeuse and the ilk. +sword skill Torque? They'd rather work on Stone Gorget's and the +skill backpiece from Sea. Weird that... not that they'd know or anything.

[Aliekber]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Aliekber, knowing quite how hard it can be for A ranked DD to hit 75% acc (without sushi on Colibri) makes me chuckle at Rdm's trying to.

Without either - exceptional melee gear or some madrigal's and decent gear, it won't happen. And it's only really useful on Colibri. Which to be frank - isn't a huge amount. Secondly, if your melee DD are good to fight without madrigals (rare, but happens), there is no way in hell I'd advise the Bards to gimp the real DD's damage output to sate a second rate DD's hit rate.

Well, a RDM/DNC never rests, so no need for +hMP food and Sushi is on the menu for all your +Acc needs. Secondly, without trying to compete for damage, only accuracy, you can use Life/Potent Belt (+10/+8), Scorpion Harness (+10), Chivalrous Chain/PCC (+5/+10), and Woodsman Ring x2(+10) for a total of +33/+40 ACC, putting them at a 285 Accuracy +32 ACC (from DEX) +10ACC (from /DNC) = 327ACC before Sushi and Sword Merits, at 75. I don't think having these pieces is out of the question, it just takes some effort to get them if you're willing to put in the time, all can be bought on the AH, and are useful for other jobs. Not to mention O. Hat, or Wal-Turban.

Third - do you really have the inventory space to carry round a *full* set of DD gear? As - on my DD jobs, I push my inventory... and I am well aware that decent Rdm's have real space problems. 8 staves, various swap pieces for everything, mnd set, int set, mab set, etc etc... you got the space for melee too now? Not saying it *can't* be done, but hell if I'm grabbing a pickup rdm to hope he can melee competently as well as keep a party running at full tilt.

No, but you don't need a full DD set, either. Just ACC/TP(/Haste if you can, as well) gear; you can leave WS and most +Attack/+STR gear in your MH. A RDM/DNC is only slightly more of a DD than a RDM/WHM is, it does some damage, but that's a side-effect of meleeing for TP, not the focus of meleeing. RDM/DNC is melee support (like a DNC), not melee DD (like a WAR).

Let me reiterate that: a RDM/DNC should first and foremost attend to his normal RDM duties, they are more important than damage. The only reason I even considered trying /DNC is that its abilities complement and enhance those of RDM main so well, if you can keep them fueled with TP.

Regarding invites, if they say they're coming /DNC to your party, you might want to ask them what gear/food they have. If they have good gear and are eating appropriate food, then I would give them a shot. If they're planning on meleeing in full AF and +INT rings, you can always tell them {Backline}{Job} only, or retract the invite. You can always kick them to the back/kick them out if they suck.

Lastly - all the really good Rdm's in my LS (and we have 7 or 8) - seem to be much more interested in getting the decent mage type pieces, and are less focused on getting Joyeuse and the ilk. +sword skill Torque? They'd rather work on Stone Gorget's and the +skill backpiece from Sea. Weird that... not that they'd know or anything.

Well, it's not like you can only have one or the other. If they're only interested in mage gear, and playing RDM from the backline, that's their choice. I don't think it precludes the rest of us from trying something new to examine its potential, though.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

If you would like to continue to assert that statement that 95% of the time, other subs will outperform it, please provide evidence of your claim.

The previous five years of RDM being a dedicated caster would be suffucient.

[Aliekber]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

The previous five years of RDM being a dedicated caster would indicate that.

The previous five years where /DNC was available for comparison? Sure, I'll buy that. Oh, wait...

I don't think I'm off-base in wanting people to back up their claims, especially since I have yet to see any of the opponents of /DNC actually mention their experiences with it, or that they've even leveled it.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Well - I'd like to see you prove your accuracy claims other than just with Sushi but since I don't see you /checking merit mobs to work out exactly what evasion they have and quite the level of gear you need to get 75% acc.

I'll give you a little hint from someone who has though, namely me...

334 total accuracy *and* sushi only barely breaks 82% acc.

Your impressive 285 accuracy without sushi isn't touching 75% parsed accuracy, so thanks for piping up, but no... you're wrong. And I can back that claim quite happily, taking a naked Thf (bar dagger) with oh.. crap, more than 285 naked accuracy out, and go... bugger.. these con high eva. That means I'm not going to get 75% acc on them, and I can screenshot it too, for your pleasure if you really won't take my word for it. You'll just have to wait until I can be arsed to, which won't be anytime soon.

So - yes, you do need a full set of gear... Not some half arsed set, and only on Lolibri.

Why would people's experience count? For the same reason - I can be told someone's base attack and go, no way can you put out x/y/z damage on x/y/z mobs, with x/y/z weapon. Don't need to parse your subjob to understand the mechanics of the game. For the same reason, that when I see some Rdm's here go, outside of x situation, this won't work - I'll accept it at face value, because they have that 'experience' that I don't believe I'm qualified to disprove. If you want to disprove it though, let's see some videos! ^^

[Aliekber]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Well - I'd like to see you prove your accuracy claims other than just with Sushi but since I don't see you /checking merit mobs to work out exactly what evasion they have and quite the level of gear you need to get 75% acc.

I'll give you a little hint from someone who has though, namely me...

334 total accuracy *and* sushi only barely breaks 82% acc.

Your impressive 285 accuracy without sushi isn't touching 75% parsed accuracy, so thanks for piping up, but no... you're wrong.

Actually, if you look at that post now (as in, before you made your post), you'll see that I initially forgot to add in /DNC's Accuracy Bonus Trait (+10ACC), and the +32ACC from RDM's base 64DEX, and corrected it, resulting in 327ACC + Sushi, well within spitting distance of your 334ACC + Sushi = 82% Hit Rate figure. In fact, throw on an Optical Hat, Suppa, or a couple of Sword merits, and you're there.

And I can back that claim quite happily, taking a naked Thf (bar dagger) with oh.. crap, more than 285 naked accuracy out, and go... bugger.. these con high eva. That means I'm not going to get 75% acc on them, and I can screenshot it too, for your pleasure if you really won't take my word for it. You'll just have to wait until I can be arsed to, which won't be anytime soon.

Great, do it at your leisure, because even if your above claim is correct, the Accuracy I forgot to add in the first time puts the hit rate where it needs to be, past the magical 75% Hit Rate tipping point at which it becomes superior to /WHM.

So - yes, you do need a full set of gear... Not some half arsed set, and only on Lolibri.

Really? I wasn't aware that WS (a necessary part of DD gear, but not support melee gear) gear was necessary for RDM/DNC, who never WS. Leaving that out will surely save some slots.

Why would people's experience count? For the same reason - I can be told someone's base attack and go, no way can you put out x/y/z damage on x/y/z mobs, with x/y/z weapon. Don't need to parse your subjob to understand the mechanics of the game. For the same reason, that when I see some Rdm's here go, outside of x situation, this won't work - I'll accept it at face value, because they have that 'experience' that I don't believe I'm qualified to disprove. If you want to disprove it though, let's see some videos! ^^

As you said, they focus on the Mage aspects of RDM. I wouldn't expect their Melee experiences to count for much, as they don't care enough to even have gotten Sea Torques. If they have Melee experience, then I would be more inclined to listen to them. Otherwise, if their only real experience is on strictly-mage RDM I can be certain they would be experts at that, but when it comes to their opinions on Melee it would be rather like getting Brain Surgery tips from your Dentist.

Secondly, the burden of proof is on the presenter. If someone makes a claim, no matter how reputable they are, it's their job to back it up, not mine. The only time I ever have to say anything other than "prove it, and I'll agree" is when the evidence has been shown, and it is either insufficient, incorrect, or does not prove the claim. At that point it is my job to prove it wrong, and not until then. That's just good science/law/what-have-you.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

The previous five years where /DNC was available for comparison? Sure, I'll buy that. Oh, wait...

I don't think I'm off-base in wanting people to back up their claims, especially since I have yet to see any of the opponents of /DNC actually mention their experiences with it, or that they've even leveled it.

You don't need experience when you understand the job mechanics of both and how they're applied, when a RDM needs TP to keep curing, something is wrong. They shouldn't be getting that low to start with.

/DNC is better utilized in PTs by PLD, COR and PUP. Its a nice solo sub or small party subjob for the rest. RDM is too much of a dedicated caster to have time to melee for TP and if they do, again, something is wrong.

Some RDMs just don't get why they're invited to parties, apparently. Look at what they want you to do and then lather, rinse, repeat.

Or as Captain Kirk once put it: Why does God need a starship?

RDM played right will seldom get low on MP, so what are you TPing for cures toward?

[Celeal]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

So far for those who play DNC as main job that I have seen, would gear all-out DD to do their task. A DNC has B+ dagger skill and ACC bonus Job Trait.

PUP/DNC, for instance, have their Automation to pick up their slack: Multi-tasking.

We have yet seen other solid job/DNC combination in exp. party without debate or doubt. SAM/DNC, anyone ^^?

Note: Both DNC and PUP/DNC in general does NOT use MP, unless the DNC/mage, or PUP/DNC use mage Automation (but that does not hinder master from hitting the mob).

Now look at RDM/DNC. In terms of melee, RDM is below DNC in terms of sword/dagger skill to begin with (RDM's B vs DNC's B+). In terms of work load, a PUP/DNC can split the task between the master and the automation. On the other hand, RDM/DNC has to manage his task on his own: Either the RDM/DNC has to cut back some magic in order to melee (compare to a back-line RDM), or other party members have to pick up the slack.

Just like a front-line job that cast magic while melee, like PLD, NIN, BLU. A RDM/DNC would have the same issue: DPS and TP gain is lower due to time spend on casting magic.

The only application for RDM/DNC I can agree is TP-burn Colibri parties, in which magic casting is minimal compare to other camps. If the party is going for Imps, Puks, Mamool Ja, Flies, or traditional area like Bibiki Bay for Dharml and Hob-Goblins, I don't see a reason for a party to build for a RDM/DNC for those camps.

Maybe at lower levels, in each the parties are hunting Crabs and Crawlers, RDM/DNC could be done.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

Oh, and I did read through that thread on Alla.. it was funny. Your arguements are funny. ^^ But, since you're promoting Rdm/Dnc... along with Glued, check out his melee gear he's vouching for Rdm melee with. I'll give you another hint, it's not heavy on the acc side.

And Starfox's arguements explaining why feeding the mob tp are so very valid too.

Ironically, you've not grasped why people say no to Rdm/Dnc. How about this.. you feed the mob TP, which makes the mob do more WS's, more pecking flurries, more snatch morsels and more feather tickles. Which in turn hurts your party's output also... or doesn't it in your world? Because you won't be hitting hard enough to make a dent in it's HP without a decent set of gear... and with your half arsed gear, you''re *just* breaking 75% acc, but hitting weakly. Not that any of the melee Rdm fans would realise the importance of that though. So, your cures are weaker, as are your hits, and.. you don't get to WS, and if you ever have to sleep a link, well - your TP is gone then too.

Shit, Rdm/Dnc must be the new win sj of choice. Bad DoT, inefficient cures hp/mp or tp ratio, feeding mobs more TP than the dedicated DD do, so making more WS's on the melee, and generally reminding me why I kick pickup Rdm's who melee.

And as for the Rdm's who want mage gear? I'd pick *any* one of them to support a meripo over some pickup Rdm/Dnc because, they appreciate what extra healing drain bad DD is on a tank or DD. So even with your extra cures you can make, guess what - you're the reason they need them. Unless you're getting say Monk's Roll from a Corsair.. and whatever other joke setup you wish to provide.

Oh, and another thing, since you're only gearing for Acc, do you have any idea of the actual damage per hit you'll do? Please provide a genuine attack figure, as I can see you nicely hitting for crap damage without enough attack.. oh, wait.. no, you somehow magically get a full attack set too, and still have space for full Rdm gear and.. so on.

Take care sunshine, I'd much rather have a Rdm/standard sj who I could take to Mamool, Kindred, Colibri, etc.. than a Rdm/Dnc who can only take Colibri, which only supports two decent parties... and right now, you're looking to be validating why that merit party sporting three DD three Support jobs have just pushed you out, because you're having downtime from making too many TP moves that you could have not had otherwise, or a sub par DD that you could have otherwise put a Bard in or Cor or genuine DD and the Rdm taken the support role which they excel at.

Yes, it has one real use - which is Colibri, and to be honest - I'd rather have a stable choice of support Rdm/Whm/Sch/Blm, who can make my party excel, so we can do interesting stuff than a sub par one who wants to hit things because he thinks he should be frontline. Oh yeah, it's your $12.95 a month or whatever... I'ma go bed now. Like I think happened with Starfox over on Allah, he had enough of trying to explain why not. I've just realised I repeated almost exactly the same principles as he did, and if a Rdm who seems to be well versed in melee, and a melee who knows how mobs work saying, you're slowing down a party aren't enough... then, nothing ever will.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: RDM/DNC rehashed

1. Low TP gain rate from lack of melee'ing time, because a RDM is busy casting spells.
2. What MP burden removed with Waltzes offset from lower MP return from Convert (due non-mage support job) and less time to rest for MP from the need to gain TP.
3. TP and need to change weapon are inherently incompatible. (RDM should use wands or staves to help with spell potency/accuracy.) Not switching weapon leads to more recasts, stressing out MP more, and reduced TP'ing time.

That makes /DNC looks like an ill fit for RDM under most circumstances. In particular, the issue of the need to gain TP and the need to change weapon are basically incompatible seem impossible to get around.

* * *

If a RDM does not use any offensive spell (thus reducing the need to switch weapon), and concentrate on curing only, RDM/DNC may work. That's if there's no nasty AoE to avoid, someone else taking care of status removal, etc. Keep in mind that while skill difference between DNC and RDM is B+ vs. B, in reality the spell duties will diminish TP gain rate to make it look like C instead, if not worse.

Oh, and not using offensive spells means no enfeebs. Those of you who really love the concept of mage/DNC may want to level a WHM/DNC instead--that seems like a (slightly) better fit. (Hey, WHM has B+ skill in club!)