rdm as DD?

[Celeal]

Re: rdm as DD?

Hey, I am just wondering, where is the OP feedback on this ^^? The OP disappeared =P

*We don't bite*

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm as DD?

Go go rdm Evis mb Blizz 3 for 700~ ;3

Umm... What I wrote was:

Plus, at pre-staves levels, a Distortion MB window at the start of the fight was a great way to make sure Paralyze lands!

No Blizzard III in those levels, I'm afraid.

The decision to nuke or enfeeble on MB comes down to how well the enfeebles are landing and how much MP one has at the moment. If a low level RDM is low on MP at the start of the fight, I expect him to enfeeble quickly, then sit back down to recharge MP. (Same for high level RDM, really, except taking into account of Convert.)

In any case, if I'm permitted to assume melee RDM would have more MP problems (e.g. /NIN support job, more recast due to resists and partial resists, less MP rest time), then wouldn't it be smarter to take advantage of early MB opportunity to land enfeebs to make the best use of their more limit mana supply?

(Obviously, an SC toward the end of the fight or a RDM more MP means one can get better millage out of nukes on MB instead.)

[Akashimo]

Re: rdm as DD?

Way to quote me out of context >_>
fail!
Someone take away Itzura's rdm license

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm as DD?

I thought you were responding to my MB comments, guess not?

Wasn't intentionally trying to misinterpret your words. <_<

[Yellow Mage]

Re: rdm as DD?

No Blizzard III in those levels, I'm afraid.

No Evisceration in those levels, either. Ergo, he wasn't talking about those levels, he was talking about 71+!

Way to make a moot point!

[Akashimo]

Re: rdm as DD?

No Evisceration in those levels, either. Ergo, he wasn't talking about those levels, he was talking about 71+!
Way to make a moot point!

Yellow Mage obtains a pair of YM's Tights.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm as DD?

Sorry, I didn't know what "Evis" was until Yellow Mage spelled it out; kinda just ignored that part. Was looking at "mb" part and scratching my head why he would respond to my post with "Blizz 3".

(Hey, at least I figured out what's "Blizz 3".)

Edit:
Anyway, as I said, it wasn't intentional. Apologies again for misinterpretation.

[Akashimo]

Re: rdm as DD?

Sorry, I didn't know what "Evis" was until Yellow Mage spelled it out; kinda just ignored that part. Was looking at "mb" part and scratching my head why he would respond to my post with "Blizz 3".
(Hey, at least I figured out what's "Blizz 3".)
Edit:
Anyway, as I said, it wasn't intentional. Apologies again for misinterpretation.

d'oh!
Well gues we're lucky you figured out the Blizz 3 part
more or less
IfritnoItazura obtains a Mithran Beach Tabard.

[Glued]

Re: rdm as DD?

i love this topc its my favorite thing to talk about as a RDM (which just dinged 69 last night, i hate having to make new accounts )

first off DD as a rdm should not take place from level 32- at least 65(still pushing it)

i say 65 because of the enfeebling torqu provided you can obtain one, with my gear set up mostly +MND and AF, Enfeebling torque

Cobra pichages
red cape +1
aquamarine ring
devotees mitts
forget my earings geist maybe and some other one
ring that adds int/mnd +3 garrolous (might be the str/agi)
and AF body pants hat

i have no trouble at all landing enfeebles without staves, even on imps when i eat some goblin mushpot, i can land all enfeebs withexception of silence regularily

as for the OP at hand rdm DD is entirley feasible without the gear setups that only the rich can buy, myself when i do melee i simply put on my attack + gear and gat some sushi i hit very consistently on Colbri and they dont like me using daggers, usually go kidney dagger/ ww anealace (for added atk+). When im able to get miserchorde+1 and the Joytoy ill rock it until i get either blau or mandau(ya right ><).

anyhow in colbri parties where their is a whm or another rdm it can get really boring just hasteing/refreshing and sitting back watching the PLD tank cure himself and others to hold hate, or watch the ninja let hate fly all over and somehow still toss out only the occaisional cure, what im trying to say as a rdm colbri camps suck, casting on t mob is a waste of time seeing as they reflect your crap back to the party.

So i decided to rock my melee for a while regardless of how the party felt about it

my equipment was
Fang Necklace
Fang Earrings
Sword Belt
some ba peice that adds attack and acc forget name but its lvl 67 i think
those level 14 dex+2 rings
and AF everything else
and sushi

my attack ratting was at 229 which is ok with me

anyhow pt was nin,thf,drk,sam,rdm,rdm

so i figured i could melee without issue, which was the case.
essentially our party went much quicker than having 2 mages on backline battling for who was going to cast spells first, having me on the front line allowed for more skillchains via the sam, and with the thf sataing the ninja rarely was hate bounced around. The end resault, minus Satas and WS's in base damage with my enspell on i out damaged oth the theif and ninja.

I also learned something valuable from this experience, cyclone is disgusting if you use it in safe areas, 396 damage @ 200% on the colbri which was more damage than ive ever nuked for on rdm. i also learned how to melee at higher levels, and unfourtunatley its changed since last time i was here, apparently melee dont know skillchains, guess thats why i always have to tell people what to do on my BLM, common NA no wonder JP players dont want to party with us.

On that note i was in a JP colbri party with a PLD,THF,DNC,BRD,WHM,RDM
and was told i was invited soleley be melee and to WS as often as i could with the THF or PLD, again i found myself out DDing the THF and even tanked a bird when i stepped in path of sata (i SS+Phalanx) all in all i learned that RDM properly equipped is nothing to scoff at damage wise.

The reason its frowned upon is because not many people can or will take the effort to do it correctly, and effectivley. Some bad... all bad players ruin our jobs immage to the community and hurt our good players images, thankfully i PT exclusivley with JP parties now and they recognize potential of everything, and know every detail about this game as opposed to NA players. Otherwise you can find me soloing mobs in campaign rdm/blm in full melee setup waiting for the day i can get a SH,PCC, and some hats and evisceration (drool).

P.S. im hungover and dont remeber what we were supposed to talk about hope this was it, im going to get a beer later guys.

[Icemage]

Re: rdm as DD?

As mentioned previously in this thread, Colibri are the rare exception that allow RDM to melee. They don't have AoEs, they're weak to RDM's best weapon type (dagger/Joyeuse), you can't cast on them without having your enfeebles and nukes bounced back.

Extending this definition beyond this one creature type, however, is a very bad idea. Most critters aren't so friendly, and are much more vulnerable to enfeebles.

This is one of the rare instances where I think RDM/NIN actually shines in an XP party, as you actually have a use for Utsusemi: Ichi (forget that flawed comment about SS + Phalanx above, where were your shadows?). As long as you cast before the first Provoke or Flash, you can shadow-blink away a single enfeeble (Paralyze is a good bet, or Dia II if you're SURE you can cast it before voke/flash) before hate bounces around.


Icemage

[Glued]

Re: rdm as DD?

ya i dont use shadows to much, when i melee mobs with AoE whats the point i jut flush money down the drain since it rip all shadows apart, at least SS+Phalanx reduces all dmg to 0 AoE or not.

on cobri i do but still SS+Phalanx isnt hat bad i have a pretty good length on them both (longer than shadows) and know a trick to keep my SS up indefinitly,

in terms of other mobs we can melee on your correct colbri is an exception along with anything else that has wings or is weak to peircing which is a fair amount of mobs. more so than slashing.

and yes it is possible to land fast cast enfeebs on the colbri however i generally dont take the chance unless i follow it up with a quick cure to erase the enfeeb.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm as DD?

Dia II is usually OK to cast on Colibri for RDM/WHM.

If it bounce back, Stoneskin will handle it. If it lands on a melee or tank, odds are they have Utsusemi. If not, a quick Erase will do the job.

Slow is good to use as well, as long as the tank has Haste. If anyone else gets hit by parroted Slow, just Haste the person if he isn't already on Haste.


* * *

NIN tanks may complain if you bounce more than one or two spells at them, though, eating up copy images. PLD tanks will be unhappy if Paralyze caused them to miss up Cures or something, but Dia, Poison, etc. won't kill them, and all can be removed easily enough.

Otherwise, pre-meriting it's OK to enfeeb those suckers a bit. In very smooth flowing merit parties, I try to cast Dia II on Greater Colibris to improve kill speed, but usually can't spare the MP to do more than that.

* * *

If a RDM wants to rely on Utsusemi for handling parroted enfeebs, he's pretty much volunteering to pull. Not exactly a bad idea for Colibri, if there's WHM or SMN in party.

I would order it as Paralyze > Slow > Sleep (at camp), since Paralyze would be the most troublesome if it lands on the RDM, so want to do it when copy images are sure to be up. (Let the Colibri cast both Paralyze and Slow before sleeping it, of course.)

[Callisto]

Re: rdm as DD?

Doobity doo...I guess I'll toss in some input as to how I do it since I'm the one who says it's so easy...I don't use windower macros, so I have to be a tad tricky with my swaps.

First off, I know it's situational. More often than not I end up in a LS party with BRD RDM WHM, so I'm not responsible for main healing, and only half a Haste cycle.

The two most important enablers to me meleeing are 1) having my non-variable potency buffs(Refresh, Regen, Haste) on <st> macros, so that I can easily cast them on party members while engaged on an enemy; and 2) having my spell macros swap in the skill+ pieces for enf/ele/dark/enh, then swapping back my ChivChain/Hollow Earring as my base neck/left earring. This makes sure that I always have a decent Acc boost while idle(having extra MP in those slots would be useless to me, as they would just be swapped out when I cast a debuff/buff/nuke, I have mp pieces for my Convert Macro in those slots.

Otherwise I swap in a pretty full DD set, I play on console so I need to use 2 macros to get the full set in:

Melee Set

Joyeuse or ESword
Genbu's Shield
Optical Hat
Chivalrous Chain
Hollow Earring
Fenrir's Earring
Pahluwhan Khazagand
Tarasque Mitts
Ruby Ring
Woodsman Ring
Amemet Mantle +1
Potent Belt
Duelist's Tights
Ogre Ledlesens

2 other important notes: First, I really never use /NIN if I intend to melee, Stoneskin+Blink is plenty enough damage mitigation in a normal party with the amount of hate you'll pull, and Vorpal Blade is too nice to give up. I would much rather take /DRK or to a lesser extent /WAR and retain more utility than Utsusemi. Secondly, if you want to melee as RDM, you can't half-ass it. You either do it well or don't attempt it. This means Sole Sushi(yes, not Squid, you need the STR), add in a large chunk of Accuracy gear, and pump some merits into sword.

In terms of casting keeping you from meleeing, really the best thing you can do is switch to AF1Hat/AF2Body/Loq Earring if you have them all, but max your FastCast so that you get your buffs done faster.

A large focus should also be on your Enhancing Magic, when you buff yourself you want it as high as possible, seeing as how your enspells will be nearly half your damage. For the most part if I'm fighting a VT+, I go with Enblizzard regardless of day, as my added Ice Accuracy merits largely cut down on partial resists.

And I have no delusions that I should compare to the DDs in the party, if I were to parse withing 10% of a SAM, DRK, RNG, or other DD I'd kick them from the party for leeching XP...however, the supplemental damage from a RDM with a good hit%(85+) hitting WS' for 250-400 a pop can easily make the difference in getting that next chain when combined with 3 'real' DDs.

And for the love of feathered hats, I don't care what you're fighting, don't Convert next to the mob. Just don't do it.

And on that note, I just got called out for using the internet at work, gotta go!

[Glued]

Re: rdm as DD?

ya i was shocked when my parse showed i had out dmaged ninjas and theifs in damage (excluding ws's and sata's) to tell the truth, im always shocked when i out damage melee on anything (see if i can find the parse crap on my comp to show you all)

when i was leveling my whm in kazham recently i was out damaging the 2 ninjas and the cor in my party and seraph strike was doubling up the rng and wars ws i was facinated until i found they were weak to light and it didnt seem so hot then

p.s. i paid a pl to main heal already did it on rdm mage round 2 no thanks spend my easily soloed gil from nm drops i rdm we so god lol

[Spinnthrift]

Re: rdm as DD?

No offense, but if your attention to Red Mage follows on your attention to punctuation and spelling (and please don't pull the English is a second language card - all languages use punctuation, and all the languages I've studied used capitalisation), then I would seriously consider the majority of your boasts, just that - boasts (with no grounding in reality).

Either that - or post your Thf's gearsets (with pictures or it didn't happen)- as to be honest, there is no way a Rdm with a grand and epic (fail) total of 229 attack should be outdamaging anyone on any exp mob at 60+.

Why can I say this with some certainty...? Well.. a minor detail called level correction and pDif. And how do I know? Well - with my gimped 400 odd attack during the 60's, I was averaging 1 cRatio on most exp mobs (with neutral weapon types, weak ones I did more). Which equated to me doing pretty much the damage stated on the tin (on my weapons). Given that you're barely over half my attack, I see no way in hell you'd be outdamaging me even on Colibri mobs on Thf or any other DD job. Hence why the boast comment above.

Secondly - you're the reason why I'm so anti Rdm-DD. You half-arse it. Level 14 Dex Rings? Get out. You're not out-damaging a Wyvern or jug pet, let alone a moderately geared DD. And unless your party sucks to the ninth level of hell and back, you're parses and your posts are lying. I had some Thf gear on when I tried my Rdm damage, and while I outparsed a badly geared Thf (he had your gear setup that you boasted about out DD'ing on), I wouldn't come close to a moderately geared one.

I could almost start to believe that some Rdm might be capable of warranting not being on a back line, but they are fewer and further between than I'd care to measure. I'd rather aim to be a great backliner akin to Icemage and others, than to fail at both. If you're going to pretend to be a DD, don't come telling people who know better, that you can acheive it with a setup that would make any genuine DD laugh at you with derision.