rdm as DD?

[Celeal]

Re: rdm as DD?

From a DD stand point of view, RDM's melee dmg output only fits in support damage

This reminds me of something I've been wondering. Exactly how does one tier damage?

When referring to RDM damage dealing, we are often berated, or dismissed, as even our best output "pales to a dedicated DD." But compared to whom?

My average damage obviously pales before WAR, MNK, DRK, DRG has been known to keep up with Theives and PLDs, barring Weapon Skill numbers.

So what are we comparing it to? If we're constantly gonna be compared to the likes of the former four, then we should just hang up the chapeaus and rapiers.

Sorry for the late reply ( I was away )

I know each player's have different expectation of a DD. I will give my 2 gil~

For example:

• If the DD is responsible for planting Hate on Tank (Trick Attack), I expect that, as soon as his Trick Attack timer is ready, his TP is 100+. And his WS must NOT sux.
• If the DD can deal spike damage: If the mob needs to die now, the mob dies now. (What I mean is timing, for keeping exp. chain alive)
• If the DD role is major DoT of the party, I expect high accuracy and each attack dmg is good and consistent. (according to the dmg formula)
• If the DD is a dead-weight to the party (MP-stink or lack damage output, etc), he fails.

Anything else, I consider as support damage.

There is nothing wrong with support damage. I am okay with that. If I am building a party and fill in jobs that comes with support damage, I expect them to share other role(s) as well.

[Icemage]

Re: rdm as DD?

No, not really. They're pretty unreasonable, actually.

Actually his list IS reasonable, because it IS possible to do everything he lists - and more.

RDM is last job to ever worry about AoE. Between Stoneskin, Phalanx, Protect/Shell, Bar-spells, Aquaveil, and optional shadows(Blink or Utsusemi), I /rofl everytime someone asks me to stay back for my safety. As if.

Odds are any AoE strong enough to tear through the RDM's defenses has already killed everyone else, so the RDM's frontline position is both moot and well-earned at that point.

I don't think anyone's saying you're going to just die if you run to toward a monster - unless it's a Goblin or a Bomb or something, but if I have the option of either taking hits to my Stoneskin or not taking hits and not having to spend MP to recast it and/or heal myself afterwards, I'll always pick not taking the damage.

My only caveat to your demand: "if you can't keep at least two protective buffs on yourself(re: Stoneskin/Phalanx), you should move to the black line."

And what's this about dropping Cures on yourself? That's the whole effing point! That's freaking magic of RDM! When he gets hit, you don't have to waste mana covering him! He does it himself! If I get hit, I better damn well Cure myself and then get right back at it!

Yes, but that takes away MP than you could be spending on more useful things - like keeping your party alive.

If I drop Refresh for more than ten seconds... yay me, I'm human. Something went wrong. I have to Cure-bomb the tank. I had to solo a link. I had to go to beat the Jehovah's Witnesses with a baseball bat. Shit happens. Refreshes will be missed. Sometimes intentionally.

Funny, I don't generally miss refreshes. Sometimes it happens, but very, very rarely. As in Refresh being down for a total of 60 seconds in a 2 hour XP session. Practice it enough and it becomes fairly second nature.

Of course I'm gonna run out of MP! Refresh only returns so much mana, even with Morrigan's robe and Duelist's chapeau! Convert is still on an 8+ minute timer even after merits! "I just finally ran dry! Woe is me! I guess I'm not fit for the front line! I guess I better go to the back line, where I can do the same, eventually!"

It's the perpetuation of that ridiculous myth(the one assuming we are an endless wellspring of mana), that gets us in trouble nowadays.

This is an incorrect assumption. We don't have "endless" mana, but it is certainly possible to get awfully darned close.

I do no resting when playing RDM in merit parties. I'm casting spells 100% of the time, and yet I don't run out of MP in my merit parties that get effectively infinite XP chains.

I'll take a screenshot of an XP chain next time I'm in a party and show you.

This is the one part I might actually agree with. If your Enfeebling spells aren't landing, you have bigger issues than wanting to front line. However, if you're maybe 1-2 on MAcc, it can possibly be an issue compensated for by armor and accessories, not necessarily needing wands and staves. Anything more than 1-3, and I'd have to agree that it might be better to concentrate on the casting.

No one cares much about whether Slow or Paralyze land on first try, but failing Silence or Sleep is going to cost you. Even with Silence, I have the worst time trying to nail down Mamool Ja Blusterers even with a staff and 3 levels of Wind Accuracy merits plus 8 levels of Enfeebling merits. There's no way a sword-wielding RDM is going to do any better than I am, and my hit rate isn't much better than maybe 60% as it is, which means even despite all I can do, Banishga III or the odd tier III elemental -ga still manages to land on my party from time to time - but a good solid number of them don't because I'm watching for exactly that.

Your overbearing assessment on good front line performance is not only dreamed, but more than a little obtuse and misleading.

He's not wrong. It IS possible to do everything he's saying, and then some.

You say that caster-advocates are delusional because they aspire to be perfect casters with effectively limitless MP.

I'm telling you that this is a worthy goal, and completely possible - I do it every single time I go out for a merit party.


Icemage

[Akashimo]

Re: rdm as DD?

IceMage appears to have dove into the dark side of mage jobs....
*forms a picket to encourages mages returning to the light side*

[Icemage]

Re: rdm as DD?

IceMage appears to have dove into the dark side of mage jobs....
*forms a picket to encourages mages returning to the light side*

I would say, on average, that I have about 200-300MP left during a decent Convert cycle (8:20) if nothing horrible happens during that cycle. Enough for me to toss out at least one Blizzard III and still have enough to cast a last minute Haste or Refresh.

I keep:
- Refresh on myself and any other casters on at all times (usually there's at least one aside from myself, be it a BRD/WHM or something else).
- Haste on all melees at all times (usually 3).
- Protectra II/Shellra II on entire party every 30 minutes
- Reraise on myself once per hour
- Regen on all melees at all times unless they're full
- Stoneskin on myself before Convert (once every 8:20)

I'm on call at any time to cast Gravity, Erase, Poisona, Paralyna, Blindna, Silena, Dispel, Silence, Sleep, or Sleep II. I also like dropping Dia II on particularly difficult enemies like Skoffin or Mamool Ja Lurkers. Cures are always the highest priority. I keep all melees out of yellow or lower HP at all times.

On average, this sees me casting one spell roughly every five to ten seconds, and the trick is sliding in the big expenses (Reraise, Protectra II, Shellra II, Blizzard III) in between the budget for all the rest of the regular cycle. There is literally no time where I can sit down and rest - as soon as one spell is done, I'm already mentally preparing my next two or three spells, and will only interrupt them if something of high priority arises (melee taking damage, Wind Wall/Protect, Warm-Up, etc.).

If I can do it and still have MP to spare, so can someone else. And when a melee-focused RDM can say they can break 25K+/hr in XP consistently the way my parties normally do, then perhaps we can talk about the performance tradeoffs.


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm as DD?

• RDM is last job to ever worry about AoE. Between Stoneskin, Phalanx, Protect/Shell, Bar-spells, Aquaveil, and optional shadows(Blink or Utsusemi), I /rofl everytime someone asks me to stay back for my safety. As if.
  Odds are any AoE strong enough to tear through the RDM's defenses has already killed everyone else, so the RDM's frontline position is both moot and well-earned at that point.

The condition I set was being able to keep up these buffs. If a RDM can't, and is eating AoE damage, then he fails.

You've completely misunderstood what I wrote.

• If I drop Refresh for more than ten seconds... yay me, I'm human. Something went wrong. I have to Cure-bomb the tank. I had to solo a link. I had to go to beat the Jehovah's Witnesses with a baseball bat. Shit happens. Refreshes will be missed. Sometimes intentionally.

Read what I wrote again; did it say drop Refresh once and you're out?

And, if you have have be on your toe to handle emergencies like links, wouldn't it make more sense to rest for MP than melee if you're not casting spells? (I'd thought that would be common sense.)

• Of course I'm gonna run out of MP! Refresh only returns so much mana, even with Morrigan's robe and Duelist's chapeau! Convert is still on an 8+ minute timer even after merits! "I just finally ran dry! Woe is me! I guess I'm not fit for the front line! I guess I better go to the back line, where I can do the same, eventually!"
  It's the perpetuation of that ridiculous myth(the one assuming we are an endless wellspring of mana), that gets us in trouble nowadays.

In a well functioning merit party, I often go from Convert to Convert with no rest, and with just one or two short MP rest for the most part if I do rest. No, I'm not a perfect player with great gear--not even one piece of Auto Refresh.

Not a one time fluke, either.

A good merit party does not stop for my MP, because there is no reason to--I do my best to make sure my MP last from Convert to Convert.

• This one is extremely subjective. You can be a stellar back line caster and still get bitched at because you didn't cast what and when someone thinks you should, let alone front line. I've been right about my priorities and sense of timing more than anyone else in any party or alliance has been mine.
  This is simply where you use your best judgment.

If you only trust your judgment, how would you know if you're wrong? Other people yelling at you is an indication that you may not be doing as well as you thought.

For me, 90% of the time when party members is asking/reminding/demanding something, it did turn out I was not doing something as well as I should. (There are idiots who demand Haste when I'm bleeding MP from curing him and other idiots up front, but that's actually pretty rare.)

Your overbearing assessment on good front line performance is not only dreamed, but more than a little obtuse and misleading.

Wyvern has small but consistent damage capability compared to most other "pets". And, it's mostly melee'ing.

Why would asking a RDM to fufill mage duty and do at least as much damage as a (lowly) wyvern's output be "misleading"?

I was thinking if a RDM does less than that, he might as well not bother. If he does more, then, yes, he would be helping with the kill speed significantly enough to warren a spot up front. Hardly unreasonable.

Edit:

And what's this about dropping Cures on yourself?

... No one should have to explain this...

Anyway, as Icemage says, MP you used to cure yourself is MP you're not using to Haste/Refresh/Enfeeb, or, cure other people.

Heck, even after Convert, I don't cure myself to full, preferring to slowly Regen and/or Drain my way back to full HP before Convert comes up again.

[Electricity Gone Human]

Re: rdm as DD?

IceMage appears to have dove into the dark side of mage jobs....
*forms a picket to encourages mages returning to the light side*

I don't really mind caster RDM as long as I'm not main healing to the point where I should be playing more as a support mage.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm as DD?

Main healing is always optional; decline party invitations unless you get a healer with it, or go static with a WHM.

I'll say this for those RDMs who wish to melee; with a WHM in party, the odds of being productive with a sword improve dramatically, since the burden of curing should be lowered by Flash and higher tier regens, and with the WHM easily picking up most of the leftover cures.

A good WHM in party definitely lessens the amount of cure casting needed. That'd be more time for swords, though it still won't solve the problem of TP saving when elmental staves and INT/MND wands are needed to land spells.

* * *

There was time (before my RDM's training time) when RDMs supposedly rested while WHM had MP and was curing, for the purpose of building MP to magic bursts. That required skillchains, of course, which are pretty rare these days.

However--not that I would bet money on it--Skillchain may be making a (minor) comeback.

I had one Troll exp/merit party with SC+MB; shockingly enough, it was a melee who suggested it to the BLM leader, as a dragged out Troll fight often involved too many Diamonhides for chaining. Tons of fun--and a few skill ups for my RDM.

More recently, my SCH actually landed in a ~Lv.30 JP party the other day, and the party leader actually asked "What should we do for renkei?" (In Japanese.)

I was stunned. ._. New-ish people, asking for SC instead of PL?! Took me a bit to shake off the paralysis, but I did find them two SC's they could use:

Double Trust > (SATA) Fast Blade :: Distortion
Tachi Enpi > Blade: Retsu :: Distortion

Some of the members were obviously new and rather unskilled. (I think the THF messed up SATA more than succeeded--brought back fond memory of my own noob THF days.) Still, we had quite a few Distortions, and nearly as many MBs.

Fun fun fun!

* * *

No offense to the melee happy RDMs, but I think MB is more interesting than swinging swords.

MB is something that requires good concentration and fairly precise timing for a few seconds, then I can slip back into the more mundane non-stop buff/enfeeb casting mode, unlike the constant distraction that is switching between melee and spell gear.

Plus, at pre-staves levels, a Distortion MB window at the start of the fight was a great way to make sure Paralyze lands!

[Akashimo]

Re: rdm as DD?

An exceptional rdm would open a sc then start casting the mb spell ;3
Go go rdm Evis mb Blizz 3 for 700~ ;3

[Spinnthrift]

Re: rdm as DD?

Just a question for all these 'exceptional' Rdm who don't need staves and like to melee in exp... where's your mistletein (sp?) and nmn shield for your enfeebles or do they also go by the wayside?

[Akashimo]

Re: rdm as DD?

Just a question for all these 'exceptional' Rdm who don't need staves and like to melee in exp... where's your mistletein (sp?) and nmn shield for your enfeebles or do they also go by the wayside?

You mean Misericorde and Numinous Shield?

[Spinnthrift]

Re: rdm as DD?

Mistilleinn and Nmn Shield.. I still can't type it.. not Misericorde. The +10 Int/Mnd club used to get really strong procs on enfeebles where accuracy is no longer an issue.

[Callisto]

Re: rdm as DD?

An exceptional rdm would open a sc then start casting the mb spell ;3
Go go rdm Evis mb Blizz 3 for 700~ ;3

Actually the exceptional ones can MB off of SCs they close. I can nail everything but Thunder 3 like that, gogo max FastCast!

[Akashimo]

Re: rdm as DD?

Mistilleinn and Nmn Shield.. I still can't type it.. not Misericorde. The +10 Int/Mnd club used to get really strong procs on enfeebles where accuracy is no longer an issue.

True, but club is lower than sword on skill rating, and staffs I found from testing solo in sky are better to land a spell with proc rate with enfeebling/int/mnd setup than the int/mnd dual wand setup with the same gear.

Plus, moon light and star light aren't exactly worth while ws at those levels. And you wouldn't get the almighty Hexa Strike or lolBlack Halo.
------------------------------------------

Actually the exceptional ones can MB off of SCs they close. I can nail everything but Thunder 3 like that, gogo max FastCast!

Yar, I find it hard to close light and mb it with whm and Banish 3 ;x
Take away fast cast, both are near the same casting time XD

[Spinnthrift]

Re: rdm as DD?

Who said anything about not swapping back to swords for sub-par melee damage? Was just clarifying that gimping spells is acceptable if you're advocating Rdm Melee DD. Which you did.

I'd not melee with a club on Rdm, but if I needed to land enfeebles and had an assured accuracy rate - I'd use the listed to get the best effect.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: rdm as DD?

I know rdm roles are pretty much enfebble, refresh, and back-up heal; but I am wondering if rdm(in a typical party set-up) could ever be used as a DD?

If you have to ask whether a job can DD or not, you probably don't know how to make it work in a DD situation anyway.

I am trying to figure out what sub I want to use for blu but I don't want to lvl thf or nin and don't want to just refresh and enfeeble .

If you view taking one single job from 1 to 37 as too much work, then I'm guessing that properly gearing up your RDM to do both DD and mage duty to be too much work as well.

It takes a grand total of 143,250 exp to get from 1 to 37 on a job. That's less than what it's going to take to get BLU from 71 to 75.

On the bright side, if you solo, you can sub whatever you want.