rdm as DD?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm as DD?

I'm only saying if it's set right to the point where you can melee, then go for it. No need to make an argument about it, really.

Well, if a RDM is set up right, he'd have staves (and wands before Lv.51) for casting.

For the melee RDM, even with swords on macro, inevitably he'd lose TP from weapon switch and at least occasionally melee'ing with wands and staves (unintentionally). So, we're talking about lower skill DD (B ranked sword), who spends much time casting, and often with the wrong weapon, and never has TP enough for a weapon skill. That means a low output DD, any way you slice it.

It comes down to cost/benefit--is the cost of being in AoE range, the extra distraction and the time (from macro switches and time not used for MP rest) and the macro space worth the minuscule amount of damage a spell-busy RDM can contribute?

Call it an argument if you want; advocating the right approach for the majority of RDMs is the correct thing to do. Plus, I suspect most RDMs who think they can do melee'ing and spell casting both correctly probably can't, judging from the complaints people have regarding RDMs in exp parties.

[Callisto]

Re: rdm as DD?

I wouldn't say that you're a fail RDM if you can't melee and keep up all of your casting duties, it's just not for some people. I personally have no problem meleeing while keeping my orders up, really the only issue is that I spend so much time casting I'm not spending enough time swinging.

My macros are all very specifically set up to enable me to easily cast all spells while meleeing, while still getting near max potency out of all of them. I carry roughly 58 pieces of RDM gear at all times so that I can pull off all facets of the job, even meleeing. Do I melee while I'm the main healer? Of course not. But sometimes, even in merits, you're just the Refresher, at times even not pulling, so what else are you going to do?

And @ Itaz, at higher levels, Elemental Staves are only going to affect your spell accuracy, not really your potency(for debuffs). While meleeing I can still easily hit 100+ INT/MND(especially now thanks to Tuna Sushi), and I really never see problems landing spells on mobs that I would try meleeing. I know we've gone back and forth over this with the last thread on this, but really if you're properly geared at merit level and you can't land your spells without staves you're missing something, at which point yes, you probably shouldn't melee.

To the point of the thread, if you want to melee, don't believe that you can't. But DO believe that you are going to need not only respectable casting gear, but also good melee gear in order to A) actually get your RDM duties done and B) actually hit the mobs for damage. If you're willing to put the time and effort into getting the gear/merits needed, pop some sushi and enjoy yourself.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm as DD?

And @ Itaz, at higher levels, Elemental Staves are only going to affect your spell accuracy, not really your potency(for debuffs). While meleeing I can still easily hit 100+ INT/MND(especially now thanks to Tuna Sushi), and I really never see problems landing spells on mobs that I would try meleeing. I know we've gone back and forth over this with the last thread on this, but really if you're properly geared at merit level and you can't land your spells without staves you're missing something, at which point yes, you probably shouldn't melee.

Merit level, yes, I can see several targeted monsters where RDM melee'ing can be done. Not Imps, obviously, but Colibri, maybe. Unfortunately, I tend to get DDs who take big chunks of damage at random times when in Greater Colibri camp, so I rather rest for MP than swing a sword, in case I need to toss out Cure IV's. (You'd think a WAR/NIN can provoke a Greater Colibri to help a fellow DD from dying, but apparently, they'd rather deplete my MP pool instead.)

Before meriting and enfeebling magic merits, however, spell accuracy from the elemental staves is darn important. That's a lot of levels we're talking about here where casting without staves is not the thing to do.

[Renadi]

Re: rdm as DD?

Before meriting and enfeebling magic merits, however, spell accuracy from the elemental staves is darn important. That's a lot of levels we're talking about here where casting without staves is not the thing to do.

Just to add in another point, there are some players (like myself) that enjoy experimenting with unusual party set ups and unusual camps.

It's not impossible for a player to be able to join one of these groups (though most often, of course, as a static). In the right set up a RDM will certainly be able to pull off meleeing.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: rdm as DD?

advocating the right approach for the majority of RDMs is the correct thing to do.

This is subjective.

[Akashimo]

Re: rdm as DD?

Honestly. I love how one sided people are on against DDing RDMs. True that at times it isn't good, but at the same time, while it is good to do so, you're DDs that were doing so well on keeping hate control from spike dmg suddenly start to suck, dunes style. >_> Least in my parties as rdm and whm dding. They didn't say anything out loud, they just started sucking mp, then started being semi golden again when I'm on the back lines.

Personally. I'd really want to see how SE is playing the RDM to do damage boost. Possibilty a spell to instant cast if you're gaining tp through auto attack, but penality of a 3x longer recast timer. Though that'll still be over powered, but it would put more options as to letting a rdm melee with instant cast only while they're auto attacking. Or a way to tweak this broken chainspell in attack mode would to make the casting timer go up a certain number of percent with each landing hit. Fast cast would act as a melee haste while this trait is active.

Serious note, dual weild daggers on rdm is like the dmg my thief in haste/acc food build. Only difference is an additional 16-18 points additional damage from enspells. Swords, I can't get an accurate view to compare by eye balling it due primarily to, lack of Savage Blade and no ex ws when i /nin. Dagger so far for rdm/nin is better than sword. Atk food + acc gear for rdm/war or rdm/drk DDing sword and daggers are about equal.

Orz, I gotta get a parser for this stuff ~_~; Come on SE make us on <_<;

[Celeal]

Re: rdm as DD?

I believe in actual prove...

If I am the party leader and the RDM in my party request for melee, I will let him/her to try in a few battles to prove himself/herself....

My personal expectation from RDM in a party is very low anyway ( /off-topic )

IMHO, if the party conditions allows the RDM to melee, the chances are, it does not make much difference. (Because the party has enough damage output and HP/MP recovery).

From a DD stand point of view, RDM's melee dmg output only fits in support damage.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: rdm as DD?

Fast cast would act as a melee haste while this trait is active.

This sounds like an intriguing idea: convert Fast Cast to Haste? This could definately give Red Mages more incentive to diversify and Melee occasionally.

Also, Enspell II: imbue the weapon so it gives a boost to spells of a corresponding element: the "Sword Antenna" logic.

[Raydeus]

Re: rdm as DD?

Reposting mode: 行きます!

-Up to lvl 40 a RDM can melee and deal decent dmg given they have enough inventory space for equip macros so they actually get everything done. And by everything I mean enfeebling without resists and dealing enough damage to make worth the TP you are feeding to the mob.

-After lvl 40 RDM has no place meleeing in a party, with Refresh at 41 (and Haste at 48)RDM role changes completely to support, which consumes too much MP to make using time to melee instead of resting MP simply not worth it.

-And then there's the thing that after lvl 50 no matter how well equiped you are the B weapon skill rating and the lack of dd weapons will start showing you how gimped we are in the damage department.

-By lvl65 you wont hit a thing unless you spend a lot of gil and inventory space, and all for very laughable damage.

Now, we do become strong soloers (albeit very slow) after level 60 and the pimp hat, but that is a completely different story and has nothing to do with xp parties.

And that's what I think about this for the 100th time.


Edit > And yes, depending on what SE does to make RDMs go to the frontlines (as they said they we considering to do at the event) like lolSpellblade and stuff this notion could change considerably.

[BurningPanther]

Re: rdm as DD?

To the point of the thread, if you want to melee, don't believe that you can't. But DO believe that you are going to need not only respectable casting gear, but also good melee gear in order to A) actually get your RDM duties done and B) actually hit the mobs for damage. If you're willing to put the time and effort into getting the gear/merits needed, pop some sushi and enjoy yourself.

I think the most important factor, oft overlooked, is practice. Practice, practice, PRACTICE. No RDM is successful at front line battle-casting right off the start. It takes repetition and refinement, to put the gear you've obtained to good use.

So often when you hear stories of RDM's failings at battle-casting, it's from someone bitter at a RDM who was inexperienced at it, and unsurprisingly fumbled. Their disapproval grew, cancerously, among the community, until it was taken for granted that RDM is incapable of simultaneous combat and casting. However, attempts and repetition are the only way one learns to improve, and it's gotta happen sometime.

So, practice. Lots of it.

From a DD stand point of view, RDM's melee dmg output only fits in support damage.

This reminds me of something I've been wondering. Exactly how does one tier damage?

When referring to RDM damage dealing, we are often berated, or dismissed, as even our best output "pales to a dedicated DD." But compared to whom?

My average damage obviously pales before WAR, MNK, DRK, DRG has been known to keep up with Theives and PLDs, barring Weapon Skill numbers.

So what are we comparing it to? If we're constantly gonna be compared to the likes of the former four, then we should just hang up the chapeaus and rapiers.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm as DD?

Parse it.

Preferably, in a party with a Dragoon, so you can compare output; if you out damage the wyvern without dropping Haste, Refresh, and enfeebles, go for it--your melee'ing is an asset. Otherwise, aim for 10% of the total damage or higher.

However:

• If you're getting hit by AoE to the point where stoneskin isn't absorbing most of the damage--if you or someone else has to keep dropping cures on you--go back to the back line.
• If you drop Refresh or Haste for more than 10 seconds more than a couple of times, go back to the back line.
• If the party has to stop killing stuff because you don't have MP, go to the back line.
• If the enfeebles are not sticking, recast with the right staff or wand. If nothing sticks well without staff/wand, go to the back line.
• If the party is screaming at you for Dispel, Silence, Haste, Refresh--doesn't matter how you think you're doing--get away from the front, and go to the back line and concentrate on the spells.

Are those demands to a DD RDM reasonable? Prove you can damage, and not drop mage duty--otherwise, get out of the front line, and concentrate on spells and MP from the back. (Don't think I have to ask RDM to get away from monsters with silencega, I hope.)

[Electricity Gone Human]

Re: rdm as DD?

(Don't think I have to ask RDM to get away from monsters with silencega, I hope.)

And why do you think we've grown to carry echo drops a lot now?

*gives the finger to that goddamn Heraldic Imp right behind me*

[Akashimo]

Re: rdm as DD?

Itaza....I'm taking a note from BLM's book...
/stab
/ma Hadoken Itaza.
/joy

Serious response.
That last bullet statement. Its gonna happen no matter what.
10sec haste/refresh one; There are times when even on back lines its gonna happen, either due to sleep/pulling or recovering from massasive spike dmg.

You'e bashing one thing rdms want to do, which is the one job wars only do.
Wars: Tank, pull, DD, backup/duo tanking.
Rdms: pull, support, dd

Notice, both been placed to do 1 thing generally. And when most times when asked to do another of the tasks possible, not prepared or willing.

>_>
Akashimo's Red Mage Anger Skill rises to 210.

[BurningPanther]

Re: rdm as DD?

Are those demands to a DD RDM reasonable?

No, not really. They're pretty unreasonable, actually.
Your demands sound about as reasonable expecting a NIN to keep up shadows perfectly(as in "no damage") while holding hate absolutely(as in "Curaga 4 goes unnoticed") throughout a session, or a WHM to keep all six members in the yellow while removing status ailments the same second the are afflicted, or a BRD to to keep songs on melee and mages perpetually while pulling.
Now that I think of it, I just demanded less of the jobs I mentioned in the situations I just mentioned, which still turn out to be unreal.
What you're asking for is RDM Jesus Christ in the Garden of Eden, Vana'diel edition. Moreover, you know it's an unreal expectation. So what are you playing at?

• RDM is last job to ever worry about AoE. Between Stoneskin, Phalanx, Protect/Shell, Bar-spells, Aquaveil, and optional shadows(Blink or Utsusemi), I /rofl everytime someone asks me to stay back for my safety. As if.
  Odds are any AoE strong enough to tear through the RDM's defenses has already killed everyone else, so the RDM's frontline position is both moot and well-earned at that point.
  My only caveat to your demand: "if you can't keep at least two protective buffs on yourself(re: Stoneskin/Phalanx), you should move to the black line."
  And what's this about dropping Cures on yourself? That's the whole effing point! That's freaking magic of RDM! When he gets hit, you don't have to waste mana covering him! He does it himself! If I get hit, I better damn well Cure myself and then get right back at it!
• If I drop Refresh for more than ten seconds... yay me, I'm human. Something went wrong. I have to Cure-bomb the tank. I had to solo a link. I had to go to beat the Jehovah's Witnesses with a baseball bat. Shit happens. Refreshes will be missed. Sometimes intentionally.
• Of course I'm gonna run out of MP! Refresh only returns so much mana, even with Morrigan's robe and Duelist's chapeau! Convert is still on an 8+ minute timer even after merits! "I just finally ran dry! Woe is me! I guess I'm not fit for the front line! I guess I better go to the back line, where I can do the same, eventually!"
  It's the perpetuation of that ridiculous myth(the one assuming we are an endless wellspring of mana), that gets us in trouble nowadays.
• This is the one part I might actually agree with. If your Enfeebling spells aren't landing, you have bigger issues than wanting to front line. However, if you're maybe 1-2 on MAcc, it can possibly be an issue compensated for by armor and accessories, not necessarily needing wands and staves. Anything more than 1-3, and I'd have to agree that it might be better to concentrate on the casting.
• This one is extremely subjective. You can be a stellar back line caster and still get bitched at because you didn't cast what and when someone thinks you should, let alone front line. I've been right about my priorities and sense of timing more than anyone else in any party or alliance has been mine.
  This is simply where you use your best judgment.

Your overbearing assessment on good front line performance is not only dreamed, but more than a little obtuse and misleading.
And for the record, I will agree that any RDM should be smart to avoid Silence AoE... but then I agree more that every mage should be smart to carry echo drops on them. In which case I say "go for it."

This sounds like an intriguing idea: convert Fast Cast to Haste? This could definately give Red Mages more incentive to diversify and Melee occasionally.
Also, Enspell II: imbue the weapon so it gives a boost to spells of a corresponding element: the "Sword Antenna" logic.

I've been of the strong opinion(like "Chuck Norris Roundhouse Kick to the face" strong), that the best combat related boosts RDM could possibly--and fittingly--receive, would be from passive-aggressive traits. Subtle Blow, Acc Bonus, Counter, Triple Attack(okay, the last one seems a stretch, but bear with me); traits that enhance the combat performance, in keeping with class lore(that of a "spellcasting fencer", light, lean, accurate attacks and parries), while taking care to avoid direct increases in damage(thusly not treading on dedicated DD's roles).


And you've already read my feelings on En-spells. Though the "Antenna" concept of a tier 2 sounds tasty.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm as DD?

That last bullet statement. Its gonna happen no matter what.

Nope. Most parties hate to bug the RDM, unless the RDM is seriously messing up. (Like I did when fighting unexpected monster with self buffs I wasn't familiar with, so wasn't dispelling. >_>; In my defense I was busy trying to keep people alive, but not using Dispel when I should is a mark against me.)

10sec haste/refresh one; There are times when even on back lines its gonna happen, either due to sleep/pulling or recovering from massasive spike dmg.

If the camp is dangerous there could be emergencies, it makes even more sense to get out of the front line to make sure you have MP reserve, no?

You'e bashing one thing rdms want to do, which is the one job wars only do.

I thought what every RDM wants to do is to be an asset to the party?

In any case, I've melee'ed in a few exp parties before. (Surprised?) A particular one comes to mind: there was a great tank, another RDM, and bunch of Colibri which we were afraid to cast spells on. (Both of us forgot we can erase or -na whatever enfeebles we use.) We got bored, and started using our swords. >_>

Obviously, all the mage stuff were well covered (to the point of overlapping Cure, Refresh, and Haste), sans the enfeebs.

If I do that party over again, I'd rather enfeeble then erase/na than bring more gears for melee'ing; the combined output of the RDMs were laughable. (Then again, I'd also get rid of the other RDM, and add a different job. My RDM in party is good enough. >_> <_<; )