rdm as DD?

[DR2D2]

I know rdm roles are pretty much enfebble, refresh, and back-up heal; but I am wondering if rdm(in a typical party set-up) could ever be used as a DD?

[Clever Ninja]

Re: rdm as DD?

This question comes up like once every other week I think O_o.

Anyway, while you could theoretically gear a RDM out to DD, why would someone invite one as a DD? I don't know about all servers, but from what I've read the majority seem to NEVER have a problem finding DD, the things that are hard to find are tanks, healers and refreshers. Enspells do a decent amount of damage if you use the correct element, but honestly I can't think of much a RDM can bring to a party that a BLU can't in regards to DDing.

If you can actually make it work then it'd be interesting to see, but I don't think it's something you can get away LFG with. You'd probably need a static or to stick doing campaign(which I've seen a fair amount of lately).

[DR2D2]

Re: rdm as DD?

This question comes up like once every other week I think O_o.

).

sorry about that(I haven't been on this site in a little while and I forgot to search-my bad). I am trying to figure out what sub I want to use for blu but I don't want to lvl thf or nin and don't want to just refresh and enfeeble .

[Ailenroc]

Re: rdm as DD?

Red mages' melee damage gets pretty subpar in the late 20's, if I remember right, and I gave up on it after 30. You stand the risk of getting hit by enemy AoE effects in a lot of instances, which can slow down party exp needlessly if you're not really doing significant damage. Also, with a sword, we're limited as to what weapon skills we can use (unless you're subbing war...), and dagger just doesn't do a lot of damage. As for magical damage, we get all the black magic spells a few levels later than the black mages, so we're always a little behind in that area. My black magic skill isn't capped either, I know, because I'm usually too busy with enfeebling and healing to cast many offensive spells.
For these reasons and a lot more I'm sure you could find in other posts, red mages usually aren't considered to be powerful DD, or DD at all, past a certain level. It's possible I guess, but difficult to do.
As for BLU subjobs, it's a little offtopic, but I've heard whm and war are all right if you don't want to level thf or nin. Might want to ask on the blue mage forums though. :-)

[arkaine23]

Re: rdm as DD?

At 75 a RDM gains maximum flexibility from access to merits and all gear possibilities, plus full potential abilities from subjobs..

RDM can DD decently at this level, which is to stay about on par with AH DD's. It takes a lot of effort; like full combat merits, picking mobs weak to piercing damage, and a haste/acc build. Comparing to top notch DD's, RDM will fall behind by maybe ~20%. But as mentioned average DD's can fall in this level of damage as well.


Typical gear choices would be:

Blau Dolch/Joyeuse
T. Sting
SH or Pln. Khazagand
W Turban
PCC
Dusk Gloves
Dusk Legs or Pln Legs or Volunteer's Brais or Vendors Slops
Ogre +1 or Dusk Feet
Amemet Mantle +1
Swift Belt
Suppanomimi and Hollow/Brutal
2 Acc rings or 1 Acc ring + rajas

Evisceration gearswaps will demand acc/dex/str/attack, generally trading out the haste items.

Vs merit targets, even with full weapon merits, a RDM will likely be best served with Sushi.

Greater Colibri are good targets. Generally RDM/NIN DD'ing means having a backline RDM to do refreshes and hastes, because you need all the swing time you can get.

[Necropolis]

Re: rdm as DD?

To be a decent RDM DD you'd have to have some pretty decent gear. Will include probably some abj. gear, AF2, and expensive AH gear. The problem with RDM DD is that you can't max out both aspects and be useful to a party; meaning you can't gear for melee and mage roles at the same time.

First thier's a limit to space. Carrying around a bunch of staves along iwth your INT and MND gear can be a strain as it is, and on top of that a full DEX and STR sets and you'll be at about 100 slots you need to do it right.

Second, if you're meleeing you need TP. But you lose TP when you swap weapons. So if you're casting spells you should be using the appropriate stave, if you're not you're gimping yourself as well as holding back the party. Or, if you do swap to staves to cast, then you're losing out on your DPS and not really contributing that much in way of melee damage.

This is assuming higher levels of course. If you're leveling a subjob, then RDM can DD quit well to the 30 with normal melee gear that is available to you. But then again, if you're LFG then most likely anyone that invites you will be expecting more in the way of cures and enfeebles than a melee DPS unless you buld the party to allow you to melee.

Many RDMs argue that they want to be an actual melee force to be reackoned with, but as it is now you arn't. Not that you can't be, but player mindset and the lack of mages makes it so. Personally I leveled my RDM in solo/duos to 37 for my subjob being a melee. It worked out ok, but not overly effective compared to when I leveled my WAR and SAM.

[arkaine23]

Re: rdm as DD?

Forgot to mention that by 75 where your enfeebling skill can easily surpass 320, you don't really need staves. Also, we tend not to enfeeble xp mobs at that level except for Dia. Its a waste of mp on stuff that dies in 30-45 seconds. Lastly, the camp I mentioned is full of piercing-weak mobs that mimic magic cast on them.

I can't think of any abjuration gear or relic gear I'd melee DD in. Crimson Mask is ok, but I think W. Turban/O. Hat will work better. Crimson is great for defenseive style soloing, but not for DD'ing. Zenith likewise is useless for meleeing. Relic body might be helpful for some enhancing casts to go quicker, but 10% fast cast is still pretty small when dealing with spells that only take a few seconds. Relic hat might be handy if mp gets low and will help if you're casting enfeebles that can be resisted without staves. I've done just fine without it and wouldn't wear it when my objective is dealing damage.

A RDM/NIN geared for melee and eating sushi has significantly less mp than a backline RDM. The style of play is vastly different. The DD'ing RDM can be a puller if needed. He can still be a handler of links. He will mostly take care of himself, but can give up some swing time to provide some limited support to party members like occasional Hastes/refreshes or Cure IVs. Ideally his magical support is for emergency use or to help out between pulls.


Anytime I'm invited to a merit party where there's a WHM or SMN is a good time to suggest I can fill a DD role and still provide Dia/Refresh and a few backup cures. I don't seek as RDM/NIN of course, neither should you. But you should recognize party setups and/or camps where RDM melee may be possible or even advisable.


There are other degrees of damage-to-support RDM can play. For instance /BLU grants Vorpal Blade and a cheap Cure III and AOE cure. It can give nice stat and mp boosts compared to every other sub, and some other things like auto-regen and killer traits. RDM/BLU tones down potential damage-dealing compared to RDM/NIN but has better ability to provide some support where there's already a main-healer (preferably one that can at least haste the melees and fix statuses).

/DNC I won't get into since there's been a lot of discussion about it already. Its low on the melee damage side and high on the support side. In order to use some of its support functions it needs to melee for TP. It gives up mp like most other meleeing subjobs and cases of sushi-eating, but gets additional utility to /endrain/enaspir/cure/curaga/erase/enfeeble from its TP pool.

[Icemage]

Re: rdm as DD?

I'm not so adamantly opposed to the idea of RDM as damage dealers, except for the fact that it gives new players entirely the wrong idea about how RDMs actually work.

In certain specific instances, yes, you can do some melee and deal a bit of damage without doing any harm. The truth, though, is that even with an all-out combat setup, with 3 or 4 DDs in your party, you're going to get a lot of mileage out of casting Haste on the dedicated damage dealers as opposed to hitting things yourself.

If there's a Dancer in the party, and you're fighting Colibris, then yes, melee setup might work as well or better as a pure caster. In most other cases, I think it's a wash, or inferior.

Certainly at any level between 35 and the early 50s, I don't see any rationale for going in with a melee approach on RDM.


Icemage

[Yellow Mage]

Re: rdm as DD?

I'm not so adamantly opposed to the idea of RDM as damage dealers, except for the fact that it gives new players entirely the wrong idea about how RDMs actually work.

These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword.

To be fair, they are more guilty of that than any of us are.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm as DD?

"Can utilize" hardly means whacking everything that moves with a sword. (Heck, you don't see Warriors above Lv.40 use Provoke, do you?)

[Icemage]

Re: rdm as DD?

"Can utilize" hardly means whacking everything that moves with a sword. (Heck, you don't see Warriors above Lv.40 use Provoke, do you?)

I do, but only at level 74+. But that's besides the point.

Square-Enix has said a lot of bizarre things over the years. Their official descriptions of many of the jobs is seriously out of sync with how the jobs actually play - red mage in particular has undergone massive changes since its initial introduction, so it suffers from this more than most.

That doesn't mean we, as players, don't have a responsibility to educate others about how to best take advantage of the job they are playing. If we just shrug and say "Oh well do whatever you want, I'm sure it'll be fine." then we have no right to complain the next time we see a red mage in our party wearing a scorpion harness with a ninja subjob.


Icemage

[Electricity Gone Human]

Re: rdm as DD?

OP: It could be done, but it would be sub-par when compared to a dedicated Damage Dealer, but here's what I've said throughout my RDM-dom: "it's better than nothing at all."

1. You'll need a Melee gear set, as there are plenty of useful pieces RDM can use to make one. Even if it's the Crimson Blade at 49 (You can laugh, but dual-wielding this at 49-55 is pretty handy for INT-based enfeebles, so it's a nice bonus). This has been explained a few times, so I'll just leave it at that.

2. a MAB+INT-oriented set, although since Magic Accuracy Bonus is a bit of an issue on RDM, you'll end up getting resisted about half of the time. It's useful when doing things with BLMs for: EXP on Wamoura Princes in the 70's and/or general Nuke-Kite-Debuffing. You'll still throw some refreshes in, but not as frequently.

That's my input.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm as DD?

It could be done, but it would be sub-par when compared to a dedicated Damage Dealer, but here's what I've said throughout my RDM-dom: "it's better than nothing at all."

Well, a melee'ing RDM is definitely better than a RDM who does nothing at all, in the same way that dirty, foul smelling, polluted air is definitely better than not having any air.

* * *

I keep hearing people who claim they can melee and mind the spells without dropping a thing.

Try asking the rest of the players about the meleeing RDMs they typically see: are those the super-RDMs, or the useless RDMs who barely Refresh or enfeeble, never mind curing? (And, did they out damage the DRG's wyvern?)

Just because something is possible, it hardly means it's possible for every RDM who want to be DD to be effective. Too many who tried turned into exp leeches, IMO.

* * *

1. You'll need a Melee gear set, as there are plenty of useful pieces RDM can use to make one. Even if it's the Crimson Blade at 49 (You can laugh, but dual-wielding this at 49-55 is pretty handy for INT-based enfeebles, so it's a nice bonus). This has been explained a few times, so I'll just leave it at that.

Staves--you cast offensive spells with them Lv.51+, not swords. Also, most often used/important enfeebs used in exp parties are MND based (i.e. Dia, Slow, and Silence). The important INT based ones (Sleep, Bind, Gravity) are done with elemental staves as well.

Before Lv.51, INT/MND wands for casting--still not swords.

[Electricity Gone Human]

Re: rdm as DD?

Well, a melee'ing RDM is definitely better than a RDM who does nothing at all, in the same way that dirty, foul smelling, polluted air is definitely better than not having any air.

I keep hearing people who claim they can melee and mind the spells without dropping a thing.

Try asking the rest of the players about the meleeing RDMs they typically see: are those the super-RDMs, or the useless RDMs who barely Refresh or enfeeble, never mind curing? (And, did they out damage the DRG's wyvern?)

Just because something is possible, it hardly means it's possible for every RDM who want to be DD to be effective. Too many who tried turned into exp leeches, IMO.

That foul air is just mistaken for getting Blinded. The icon does look like polluted air, after all.

Advocating melee wasn't necessarily the point to my post. I was just saying what you would need in order to do it, not exactly say "Yes, your pick-up party won't mind if you do it." I don't know if you're just trying to misunderstand me, but I've noticed that some RDMs are anti-melee mainly because they can't seem to keep up in a normal exp party. Let's hope you're not one of them for the sake of taking up RDM as a main job, as I remember you saying that you've tried and failed.

I was fairly able to keep up with my static party back in the day, from the feedback I've gotten. What I did was back when ToAU wasn't even out as well, and of course I wouldn't recommend it, unless you've gotten some practice elsewhere, for example, soloing.

Staves--you cast offensive spells with them Lv.51+, not swords. Also, most often used/important enfeebs used in exp parties are MND based (i.e. Dia, Slow, and Silence). The important INT based ones (Sleep, Bind, Gravity) are done with elemental staves as well.

Before Lv.51, INT/MND wands for casting--still not swords.

Nobody DD's with Wands, though, so if you're going to try and melee, that B-Rank Sword shouldn't be sitting there in your inventory.

And let's not forget about Blind if Flash/Kurayami resists. And if I remember correctly, INT+10 = 5 Magic Attack/Accuracy, so swapping in INT Gear should improve the spell.

Oh, that reminds me to add to the original post: don't skimp out on Gobbiebag quests.

I'm only saying if it's set right to the point where you can melee, then go for it. No need to make an argument about it, really.

[Spinnthrift]

Re: rdm as DD?

ElectricityGone...

I've had the pleasure of taking my Rdm out for a bit of a melee whirl, and while my dagger DoT was vastly higher than our inimitable Thf's dagger DoT... I can safely say - that my performance even with meritted Dagger, a full set of acc/attack gear - my damage wasn't enough to warrant my melee. And I'm a Thf at heart, with a mostly full collection of various knives I can play with.

Rdm isn't a melee job in exp. Added to which - keeping hastes/enfeebles/healing/refresh/etc etc etc etc - isn't worth losing my focus on that, and to be honest, I don't see how any Rdm can do all of the above and melee - even as a subpar DD. You can call me a fail Rdm if you wish, but I have tried it on the last mob of a party, and even with it being a bat and me being a daggerboy didn't impress me enough to go yep, I should be melee'ing.

Rdm isn't my main. Being a melee is. So - I'd say I'm fairly well qualified to say whether my melee was worth it. And the end result was: An astounding no. A very qualified no. As even with hitting for 30 a hit as fast as I was - a well geared DD should be miles ahead of me and all I was doing was feeding the mob TP.

I've done it as the last mob in a party to see and wasn't impressed, and whenever I see Rdm's do it as a general style of exp, I cringe, then either replace them or disband.