Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

[Fynlar]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

Ice Spikes was already discussed--It cannot be used on others, so it is virtually useless except to a RDM tank that is not using Utsusemi.

The fact remains, Paralyze 2 is not our strongest paralysis ability.

Also, if we're going to cover the capabilities of other jobs, why not just say that SMN or SCH/BLM can do a better paralyze than us by simply doing AoE Ice Spikes, and therefore ask why should we bother with Paralyze 2? It's the same sort of logic that was used for Phalanx 2.

SMN gets a weaker version that has better overall coverage, and SCH/RDM gets a stronger version that has better overall coverage.

- Each of them have to use up BP or Stratagem timers to use them. They do not come with solely an MP cost. If you're using those abilities, you're sacrificing the chance to use others.
- Both of them require the user to close in to AoE range. Chances are, if you're fighting something where AoE Phalanx is actually warranted, you're probably fighting something with nasty AoE. Phalanx 2, on the other hand, can be thrown from a greater distance than other spells usually can, and once it begins casting, it cannot ever be "out-of-ranged", which is extremely useful for kiting situations.
- Phalanx isn't usually an ability that needs to be AoE'd to begin with, you're usually better off using Stoneskin instead in such a case

it is not a unique ability among all classes.

When did I ever make that claim?

I'm saying for RDM, it is unique.

All three versions are useful in various situations, but if you had an HNMLS, I doubt you'd want all of your RDMs to have Phalanx II.

None of the RDM tier 2 merits are important enough for me to bother about who gets what in HNM play. Even Phalanx 2 stops being useful most of the time because most everything is blink tanked, although it still has its niche situations where it shines above all else (PLD tanking a mob doing Hundred Fists as a simple example). Enfeebles have high resist rates on most of the things that actually matter and unless they can Elemental Seal them, I'd rather not have RDMs spending enormous amounts of MP trying to land crapshoot enfeebles with higher MP costs. They are better off saving the MP for Cures or other important things.

If someone wants to throw Dia 3 that's fine with me, but honestly, it's not that much better than Dia 2 and it costs much more MP over time to maintain even when fully merited. If it's not fully merited, it's a definite waste. I don't know why Dia/Bio 3 couldn't be 3 minute duration at max merits like they are supposed to be...

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

Phalanx is really the only unique spell out of all our meritables and it's not hard to think of instances where it would be a godsend to have, which is why I don't think it should be overlooked without consideration. The others are all just rehashed, slightly improved, but more expensive versions of existing effects.

When did I ever make that claim?

I'm saying for RDM, it is unique.

It was not clear what you meant initially, at least not to me. Now that you've qualified what you meant, it's more clear. You mean 'unique' as in different target than level 1 version. But, that's not the only way to define uniqueness.

Slow II is unique in being able to override certain haste buffs, and keep them off. Dia III's mileage is proportional to the number of melee DDs thrown at the target, and it's arguably our most helpful spell for melee DDs. Bio III can become the second highest DoT rating slip spell a RDM have access to. Blind II can lower a monster's accuracy more than Kurayami: Ni.

The meritable spells are all unique or special in some sense, except maybe Paralyze II.

[Sabaron]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

The fact remains, Paralyze 2 is not our strongest paralysis ability.

Also, if we're going to cover the capabilities of other jobs, why not just say that SMN or SCH/BLM can do a better paralyze than us by simply doing AoE Ice Spikes, and therefore ask why should we bother with Paralyze 2? It's the same sort of logic that was used for Phalanx 2.

You can't combine Manifestation and Ice Spikes (I believe we had a discussion on this on a speculation thread early in the days before we knew what SCH could do--I was disappointed as Ice Spikes-ga was to be an excellent combo). Therefore, the only mass Ice Spikes effect remains the short-lived under-powered version that SMN has.

Manifestation - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki

Frost Armor - FFXIclopedia - a Wikia Gaming wiki

[Fynlar]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

Slow II is unique in being able to override certain haste buffs, and keep them off. Dia III's mileage is proportional to the number of melee DDs thrown at the target, and it's arguably our most helpful spell for melee DDs. Bio III can become the second highest DoT rating slip spell a RDM have access to. Blind II can lower a monster's accuracy more than Kurayami: Ni.

The meritable spells are all unique or special in some sense, except maybe Paralyze II.

In my book, none of that is really unique, other than maybe Slow 2's ability to overwrite and block more Haste abilities. (Strangely enough, Slow 2 happens to be our other stand-out category 2 merit, fancy that?)

Phalanx 2 is not just blinding the enemy a little bit more, or lowering the mob's defense a little bit more... it's an entirely different capability that RDM has zero access to without meriting it, and that's what I meant by uniqueness.

You can't combine Manifestation and Ice Spikes (I believe we had a discussion on this on a speculation thread early in the days before we knew what SCH could do--I was disappointed as Ice Spikes-ga was to be an excellent combo). Therefore, the only mass Ice Spikes effect remains the short-lived under-powered version that SMN has.

I stand corrected. >_>

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

In my book, none of that is really unique,

The thing is, you can't be subjectively selective about what is "real" when it comes uniqueness. Either something is unique, or it is not.

If a species of ants has two little kinks on its left antenna, it's unique for it--whether it does anything useful or even different from other species of ants left antenna or not makes no difference. When you can isolate what is different from the rest, you have uniqueness.

Now, if you want to argument meaningful operational differences, that's a different subject. (Of course, I listed the differences primarily in terms of in-game, testable observation and conjunctures, so I'm safe on that front as well. )

Or, maybe you just confused the word "unique" with "special". Determination of what is "special" can be subjective--and usually is.

[MrMageo]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

Personally i have popped 1 in every category.

Dia : assist in overall melee DMG
Blind: Hard to tell when and when it doesnt proc
Para: I find it to be on par with para 1 on the tougher NM's and sky mobs
if para 1 lands at all >.>
Slow: 33% is a decent effect, over writes haste is full of win
Phalanx: On a blood tank there is nothing better to use half the cost of the cure 4
youd need other wise
Bio3: Least used by me Bio 2 ftw, nice to cast fast for a damaging WS or 2HR

The added Duration didnt apeal to me and spell ACC dosent seem to be an issue
(have 3/3 ice 2/2 wind 2/2 earth acc) as well as maxed MND merits (we taru so week) I only need ES to stick the Gods with there strong elemental Enfeeble. (may be able to get it to stick without need 3 merits for capped enfeebling)
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Oh also ive been thinking has anyone tested the spell ACC thing is it just tied to the spell itself or is it an increase to overall spell acc? because if it is the latter i wil be droping bio,dia,phalanx and going 2/2/2 for +6 ACC

If anyone has any knowledge on this or numbers please let me know.

[Icemage]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

Oh also ive been thinking has anyone tested the spell ACC thing is it just tied to the spell itself or is it an increase to overall spell acc? because if it is the latter i wil be droping bio,dia,phalanx and going 2/2/2 for +6 ACC

If anyone has any knowledge on this or numbers please let me know.

The Magic Accuracy you get for additional levels in merited spells like Paralyze II applies to that spell only. It's not a generic MACC+ like you'd get from, say, Wise gear.


Icemage

[MrMageo]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

Awesome thaks Icemage i thought thats how it was meant but sometimes words have two meanings