Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

[hongman]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

Thanks for the thoughts everyone.

Even if Dark Arts did jack up the skill, I still couldnt use it - not for solo anyway. Shadows are much too important :x

[Icemage]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

Icemage, I was under the impression that Bio 3 isnt worth much in solo situations without capped duration compared to Bio 2, dmg/mp wise.

It's inefficient from a damage/MP viewpoint, but given some of the things I know you are fighting (*coughFaustcough*), a little investment in it isn't a bad thing - and it does have uses in group/alliance situations, too. More points in it isn't a good idea, though, as the extra duration doesn't really help that much unless you're phalanx/stoneskin tanking - and you're not looking to use it as a permanent DoT (if you are, I suggest looking elsewhere).

I am really leaning toward Phalanx II tbh. I hardly ever use that anymore.

I personally think Phalanx II is a crock. 21 HP isn't going to save your tank in HNM situations, and you'd never cast it on yourself.

Para II, I was really disappointed with. Hard to test Para procs, so I guess I am going on placebo, but it seems to me Paralyze 1 procs more than Paralyze 2 >.> (ala our last Ultima)

Para II does proc more than Para I, but ONLY if you bump it to level 3.

Slow II - hmm. I will decide on this later, if I do drop this to level 1 I may merit something like Dia III for zergs.

I have 1 point in Slow II and can not for the life of me see any reason to push it higher.

Given what I know about what you normally do on a typical day, I'd recommend for you (not for everyone since every RDM does different things)

Paralyze II: Level 3
Slow II: Level 1
Bio III: Level 1

Last level do whatever you want with. Dia III isn't really all that and a bag of chips, as it's only used on a handful of HNM targets with any regularity, and you'd never pop it in an XP/merit or solo situation, but if your LS does things like meleeburning Kirin, I could perhaps see getting 1 level of it.

Blind II doesn't help you at all, and is only really of use when you're in an alliance with an evasion-build Ninja or a THF/NIN in a small group.

Phalanx II is OK. Again, I don't see much point in extra levels - if your tanks are dying over a few HP, your strategy sucks. Still, it's a goodwill gesture - but as mentioned above, situations where you want your tanks to take less damage are much better covered by Bio III than Phalanx II. Combine the two, however, and you've got a decent combination, provided you have sufficient MP to fuel it.


Icemage

[hongman]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

It's inefficient from a damage/MP viewpoint, but given some of the things I know you are fighting (*coughFaustcough*), a little investment in it isn't a bad thing - and it does have uses in group/alliance situations, too. More points in it isn't a good idea, though, as the extra duration doesn't really help that much unless you're phalanx/stoneskin tanking - and you're not looking to use it as a permanent DoT (if you are, I suggest loking elsewhere).

I still dont get what you are saying :x Bio III merits extend duration, which means I have to then cast it less. Less casting means more MP saved on a very MP intensive fight already. Also means less Binds I have to break myself. And yes, it is a permenant source of DoT, along with Poison II - Bliz3 only when I have the MP and the timing is right (i.e Bind and Grav is up). Did I miss the point?

I personally think Phalanx II is a crock. 21 HP isn't going to save your tank in HNM situations, and you'd never cast it on yourself.

I dont know, 21 HP every hit over a 2hr fight (slowmo Jormy style) is a lot of HP saved. But we dont do those very often lol.

Para II does proc more than Para I, but ONLY if you bump it to level 3.

Yeah, I had it at level 3. It still sucked ass for me >.>

Given what I know about what you normally do on a typical day, I'd recommend for you (not for everyone since every RDM does different things)

Paralyze II: Level 3
Slow II: Level 1
Bio III: Level 1

As much as I appreciate your valuable insight, I would never merit Para II again. It just isnt for me, seeming how I notice my Para 1 procs are acceptable as it is, and my past experience with Para II.

[Icemage]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

Well if you really dislike Para II then drop it to 0. I find that it's a bit "stickier" than Paralyze I, and doesn't get resisted nearly as often, but I'll agree it doesn't really proc all that much more often even at level 3.

As for Bio III, I don't advocate pushing it above level 1 unless you're straight tanking - for group applications like HNMs popping up Mighty Strikes or Hundred Fists, level 1 is sufficient. Even with level 3, the duration is short enough that you can't afford to keep it on full-time. As for the DoT effect, Bio II is going to be a better bet. For long-term damage mitigation, Bio II is also more supportable than Bio III. It's just too much MP to spend to keep on full-time when you've got other things to worry about, even with the extended duration at level 3.

Honestly, I think most of the RDM Group II arsenal "looks" better than it actually performs.


Icemage

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

Honestly, I think most of the RDM Group II arsenal "looks" better than it actually performs.

And, honestly, I think most of the RDM Group II arsenal doesn't look all that good to begin with.

Notice how our statements are not mutually exclusive.

[Fynlar]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

I had 3 in Phalanx, 1 each in Para, Slow, Dia. Dropped Para and Dia, maxed Slow. Loving it. I like spells that I actually USE, and Phalanx and Slow are both it and both carry noticeable effects that are able to ease situations that would have been tricky without them. IMO there's no reason to merit anything else unless you NEVER use blood tanks (in which case, drop Phalanx and get Dia), or you are planning to work with your other RDMs in your LS and get different things so that you have all bases covered.

Bio, honestly, isn't worth any points, unless all you intend to use your RDM for is to solo nuke-resistant NMs, like... I dunno... Genbu. Thing to keep in mind is that a lot of the really nasty NMs are ones that you don't want to be feeding TP anyway, so Bio would be out of the question anyway on those. (I bet some of those people wish there was a meritable Poison 3 instead. It would actually make a lot more sense for RDM, given our high score in Enfeebling and our craptastic score in Dark, but whatyagonnado?) If it's not nuke resistant, the MP you save in a 10 minute span by keeping Bio 2 on the mob instead of Bio 3 will be enough to throw a Blizzard 3, which will probably cover any extra DoT Bio 3 would have done. In a PT situation, you may as well let the BLM cast Bio 2 if you desperately need Bio for some reason, because not only are they able to match your Bio 3 DoT anyway with practically no effort, it will save you some merit slots.

I personally think Phalanx II is a crock. 21 HP isn't going to save your tank in HNM situations, and you'd never cast it on yourself.

Stop casting Phalanx on a blink tank.

That's obviously not what the spell was intended for. Of course if your tank is only going to get hit once or twice on average during Phalanx's duration, it's not worth casting. On the other hand, if your tank takes say, 20 hits during its duration, that's about 420 damage blocked, about equivalent to a RDM's Cure 4, meaning less enmity gained by you curing him as well as MP saved.

You use Phalanx on blood tanks (note that this does not apply solely to PLDs) and any situations where someone is taking hits at a high rate. In those situations, it shines greatly, much more so than any of our other meritables. Almost every serious HNM is blink tanked (even the PLDs will often go /NIN) so Phalanx is obviously not as worthwhile there. ???? is situational.

Phalanx is really the only unique spell out of all our meritables and it's not hard to think of instances where it would be a godsend to have, which is why I don't think it should be overlooked without consideration. The others are all just rehashed, slightly improved, but more expensive versions of existing effects.


In conclusion, I like our category 2 merits. If you wanna see jobs that got dicked by their cat.2's, go check out NIN, BST, RNG, and SMN.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

Phalanx is really the only unique spell out of all our meritables

SMN: Noctoshield (Phalanx-ga); not sure about potency.
SCH/RDM: Phalanx-ga; stronger than Phalanx II.

Nice? Yes. Unique? Not really.

[Sabaron]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

SMN: Noctoshield (Phalanx-ga); not sure about potency.
SCH/RDM: Phalanx-ga; stronger than Phalanx II.

Nice? Yes. Unique? Not really.

Noctoshield is capped at 13 iirc.

The thing, now, is that the hypothetical higher Bio III tier is not what it was projected to be, therefore Bio III from a RDM/SCH will not be significantly stronger than it was before.

[Raydeus]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

So, for all intends and purposes I'll just asume the end result of these debates is:

Group II spells aren't worth it no matter how you slice it. If you have the merits to spare then go for it just for the sake of having something new/potentially useful.



PS > I just hope the new spells for RDM (if any) work much better than this, in the mean time I wont be getting any Group II spells. Rather cap crits and other combat/magic skills.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

Bio III's lacking progression is a real bummer. It can still be useful, I think, in kite-while-dealing-with-adds type of situation like Kirin, where it
1. Adds a little safety (~15.2% attack down),
2. Does a little DoT (9 dmg/tick easily on RDM/SCH build), plus
3. Do those for for very little TP (10 TP per application, with duration of 90 seconds at max merit).

Even in normal kite fight, it wouldn't be too bad for a RDM/SCH to toss on Bio III, especially as a counter to any critter with strong innate regen.

I'm still planning to fully merit Bio III. Right after I finish getting Phalanx II Lv.2, and log a few Wind and Ice accuracy merits. â—€/sighâ–¶

* * *

Edit:

So, for all intends and purposes I'll just asume the end result of these debates is:

Group II spells aren't worth it no matter how you slice it. If you have the merits to spare then go for it just for the sake of having something new/potentially useful.

That would be a wrong conclusion. Slow II is very useful just about anywhere it can land, while Dia III has strong application in supplementing melee damage. Phalanx II can save a good deal of MP for cures when not tanking on Utsusemi.

Even Blind II can potentially be useful. Gear and monster depending, it can hit accuracy-30 or more (par or exceed Kurayami: Ni), which translates to a solid evasion+30 for evasion tanking. THF tanks doing small group work would appreciate that, I'd think--if they can ever find a RDM who has it merited.

The most debatable one is Paralyze II, with wildly inconsistent reports of ranging from proc'ing worse than Paralyze I to incredibly well.

The point is, it's not whether the group II spells are worthwhile or not, but do you participate in activities which one or more of them would be helpful in?

[Raydeus]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

Like I said, they are potentially useful but not worth it for me unless you have nothing else to spend merits on.

I'm sure there are hundreds of ways to justify getting the spells, I've seen a lot since SE introduced them. But not a single one of them is good enough to convince me to waste time and merits on a bunch of half assed spells introduced only because SE had to toss something into the RDM group II list.

4 times the MP for a bit more M. acc and some very neglible effect/DoT increase. A weak version of a spell that could potentially help blood tanking everywhere but that's too weak to make any significant difference when it actually matters (and at least 25 levels too late).

And that's the way I see them.

But like I said, that's what I am going to asume. And I certainly hope every RDM that reads what I wrote takes the time to think for themselves to decide wether they are worth it or not for them regardless of what everyone's opinion on the matter is.

[Pteryx]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

The most debatable one is Paralyze II, with wildly inconsistent reports of ranging from proc'ing worse than Paralyze I to incredibly well.

Paralyze II seems to be the one for which extra investment does the most. Paralyze II level 1 is basically only useful as a stepping stone to Paralyze II level 2. I have Paralyze II level 2, one Enfeebling merit, and one ice acc merit, and I find that combination to be respectable against non-HNMs, reminiscent of how the original Paralyze was at low levels where I fell in love with it. (It's worth noting that gearwise, I use Wise Gloves as well.) If the jump from level 2 to level 3 is anything like the jump from level 1 to level 2, then Paralyze II should end up slightly better than the original Paralyze but not as good as Ice Spikes when it comes to its overall strength.

One thing I've noted as well about Paralyze in general is that accuracy makes an enormous difference with it. A resisted Paralyze doesn't just have a shorter duration, but also a lower proc rate. This is why Barparalyze is the only useful Barstatus, and why the original Paralyze eventually becomes wasted MP to cast, making only a temporary partial comeback when you get your Ice Staff. -- Pteryx

[Karinya]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

I disagree - even though the proc rate goes down, the HP saved per proc goes up - WAY up - making it very worthwhile. It's easily worth casting several paralyzes to get one proc out of them on an HNM. And I routinely get multiple procs per Hundred Fists in Dynamis (from para II level 1).

Mainly, though, I joined this thread to mention how much I like Dia III. It's the strongest def down RDM can get. One of the problems with RDM these days is how much of our support role is oriented toward reducing the monster's ability to kill the party, and how little is in helping the party kill the monsters faster. With blink tanking and weak mobs, that makes us less than useful a lot of the time. But nobody doesn't love -15% defense, all the time, unresistable. It's not worth casting on every mob in merit (although if you pull the occasional Skoffin or something, you might), but it makes everything die faster in Dynamis, Limbus, Assault, Campaign... seriously, it's a great spell, if someone doesn't overwrite it with Bio III.

In answer to the original question, I'd drop Phalanx II. Pay merit points to imitate SMN and now SCH too? No thanks. I'd rather have the strongest paralyze in the game, a damn useful unresistable def down (stacks with blu's, too, if they ever use it) and a slow that overwrites haste. Blind is in the "might be worth getting if the cap didn't force you to sacrifice something else for it" category and Bio III and Phalanx II don't even reach that point IMO.

[Fynlar]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

SMN: Noctoshield (Phalanx-ga); not sure about potency.
SCH/RDM: Phalanx-ga; stronger than Phalanx II.

Nice? Yes. Unique? Not really.

Unique for RDM? Yes.

Why bring other jobs into the argument? We're just talking about RDM's capabilities, not anyone else's. Do you always party with SMNs and SCHs? I sure as hell don't. Most people don't even like to invite SMNs to most activities, and while I'm sure there are some 75 SCHs on my server, I have yet to actually see and notice one.

My point was, out of all our meritables, Phalanx 2 is the only one that lets us do something we couldn't do before, an entirely new capability. The rest are just rehashes of stuff we already have.

I'd rather have the strongest paralyze in the game

I got that without having to pay any merits... it's called Ice Spikes >_>

[Sabaron]

Re: Which to drop - Slow II or Phalanx II

Unique for RDM? Yes.

Why bring other jobs into the argument? We're just talking about RDM's capabilities, not anyone else's. Do you always party with SMNs and SCHs? I sure as hell don't. Most people don't even like to invite SMNs to most activities, and while I'm sure there are some 75 SCHs on my server, I have yet to actually see and notice one.

My point was, out of all our meritables, Phalanx 2 is the only one that lets us do something we couldn't do before, an entirely new capability. The rest are just rehashes of stuff we already have.




I got that without having to pay any merits... it's called Ice Spikes >_>

Ice Spikes was already discussed--It cannot be used on others, so it is virtually useless except to a RDM tank that is not using Utsusemi. We had already gone through the benefits of each of the spells, and I think it all comes out in the end that all of the RDM merit spells are worthwhile in some instances, but some need all 3 merit levels to be good. In an HNMLS where you will find a SMN and have a good chance to find a SCH, what merits would you want in light of their capabilities? You're taking the discussion out of context... There are quite a few pages of discussion. I doubt that anything you have said has added anything that hasn't already been discussed above.

The choice in Hongman's case would boil down to what do other RDMs in the LS have? The idea is to have all of the bases covered in one LS. Thus the most efficient End-game RDM entourage is formed. Phalanx II is essentially a party tool, so you will pick it if it is synergistic with your group and leave it if it is already covered.

While it is true that Phalanx II is the only merit spell that adds a new capability to end-game RDM, it is not a unique ability among all classes. SMN gets a weaker version that has better overall coverage, and SCH/RDM gets a stronger version that has better overall coverage. All three versions are useful in various situations, but if you had an HNMLS, I doubt you'd want all of your RDMs to have Phalanx II.