Sword vs Dagger

[Raydeus]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Hey Callisto, how good is ES's dmg compared to Mensur?

[Sabaron]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Hey Callisto, how good is ES's dmg compared to Mensur?

Solo vs. Even Match (Attack = Defense)
Mensur Epee: 47/224*60 = 12.59 DPS
Enhancing Sword: ((40 *1.08)+5)/240*60 = 12.05 * 1.04 = 12.53 DPS

1.08 is the adjusted percent damage bonus calculated from the difference in the base and adjusted Attack pDIFs for 0 level difference mob with 246 defense. Attacker has 246 base attack +16 from the sword only.

1.04 is the adjusted hit rate from the Accuracy +8.

They're neck & neck solo vs. EM with Mensur (slightly) ahead especially against tougher foes--keep in mind that when you're fighting weaker monsters you will often see "Low Defense" which changes the flavor of the Attack Bonus; this is calculated at "dead even". For Party, Enhancing Sword obviously wins as Mensur loses base damage. If you can afford it or farm it, Enhancing Sword is obviously the better choice--you can always sell it back when you get Justice/Joy.

[Raydeus]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Considering I only solo/duo and that I'm not a big fan of spending too much time getting an item in the game I think Mensur is good enough. Just wanted to know how far behind it was compared to ES, and the difference isn't much anyway.

And Justice/Joy are out of the question.

[Richie]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Why is an item that can be duo'd out of the question?

[Icemage]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Why is an item that can be duo'd out of the question?

If you're talking about Joyeuse, yeah it can be duo'd, though you need a pretty specific set of jobs to do so.

THF/NIN with an Evasion build + RDM/WHM probably fits the bill, but not many other combinations of jobs can duo Charybdis successfully (BSTx2 maybe).


Icemage

[Sabaron]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Why is an item that can be duo'd out of the question?

The general problem with the Joyeuse is not the killing of the mob. It's having your team assembled and camping an NM for an extremely long time. Even if you know the ToD, you still may have to wait quite a while--5 to 10% pop rate with 16 minute pop times can take a very long time.

Duoing Charybdis is most likely quite a monumental task as well--taking a great deal of skill and patience.

[Armando]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Duoing Charybdis requires too much luck that it's not feasable if you're going for the drop. The fight will last so long that the odds that she'll instant-kill you with a high-hit-count attack round + TP move are too high. If you think about it, she's more likely to TP during an attack round that had many hits, since she's getting that much extra TP all at once, so it wouldn't be sheer coincidence or dumb luck on her part when it happens. And there's no guarantee it wouldn't happen a second time or third time during the same fight.

And yes, although killing her is feasable like Sabaron said the real pain in the ass is having that many people ready when she pops. It's like saying "hey guys, you want to wait around for 3-4 hours to see if Charybdis wants to pop?" I wasn't that unlucky but I've read plenty of testimonies where she's taken 2 hours or more.

I wouldn't consider it out of the question. I mean, technically, all it takes is a single day to get it. It's not easy but it's certain accessible if you have people to help.

[Raydeus]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Yeah, getting Joy requires more time and help than I have (or that I'm willing to spend on it).

Maybe I'll get it when I get enough gil to hire some merc LS or maybe when I get BST to 75 and try to duo it, but either way it's not going to happen anytime soon (if ever).

[Icemage]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Duoing Charybdis requires too much luck that it's not feasable if you're going for the drop. The fight will last so long that the odds that she'll instant-kill you with a high-hit-count attack round + TP move are too high. If you think about it, she's more likely to TP during an attack round that had many hits, since she's getting that much extra TP all at once, so it wouldn't be sheer coincidence or dumb luck on her part when it happens. And there's no guarantee it wouldn't happen a second time or third time during the same fight.

And yes, although killing her is feasable like Sabaron said the real pain in the ass is having that many people ready when she pops. It's like saying "hey guys, you want to wait around for 3-4 hours to see if Charybdis wants to pop?" I wasn't that unlucky but I've read plenty of testimonies where she's taken 2 hours or more.

I wouldn't consider it out of the question. I mean, technically, all it takes is a single day to get it. It's not easy but it's certain accessible if you have people to help.

Armando speaks from personal experience here, since I ended up calling in the cavalry from my HNMLS to take Charybdis down when we got his Joyeuse recently.

You don't really need a merc LS to do Charybdis though. A handful of friends works just fine if you know what you're doing and have a good evasion tank.


Icemage

[Raydeus]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

If I had that handful of friends I would probably have Joy and Zilart completed by now, but I don't.

So it's either duo it with BST (maybe) or hire mercs, not that I care about it that much anyway.

[Esoa]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

I don't plan on getting Joyeuse ever either. Having people help you out means that you are probably helping them out too, so if you get into the "lets camp this NM" routine you can spend a lot of hours total. Then there's all the travel time, prep time, waiting for the pop, the risk of failure, the risk that another group is there, etc. All for a melee weapon for a class that doesn't have very strong melee.

Plus if it were so easy for most 70+ to get there's no way Enhancing Sword would sell for so much.

[Richie]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

It sells for so much because so many pessimists play this game. I can get another Joyeuse faster than I can get 2.5mil.

How to get Joyeuse:
Option:1

Step 1: AFK in SSG while you sleep
Step 2: Wake up and check chat log for TOD
Step 3: Option 1: Tell THF friend (and another healer or brd if you're not very confident) when the window opens and to be there. Option 2: wait until window opens and grab whoever is on LS if it's not too heavily camped.
Step 4: Kill charby
Step 5: Take Joyeuse.

Option 2:
Step 1: Go to SSG when you see a 5man jpn party there and watch them wipe.
Step 2: Laugh as they try to hold it by kiting while waiting for more people but die horribly again.
Step 3: Pull it when it turns white and Duo it infront of them while they try to stand on you spamming bard songs and emotes
Step 4: 40 minutes later collect your Joyeuse while the jpn spam you and threaten you with GM calls in poor english.
Step 5: Laugh and warp out.

[Seijurohiko]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Enhancing Sword isn't expensive because Joyeuse is hard to get. Enhancing Sword is expensive because it's hard to get. Charybdis usually spawns twice a day, with a 100% drop rate on the Joyeuse. Bune only pops once a day with a very low drop rate on Enhancing Sword.

[Patchinko]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

It sells for so much because so many pessimists play this game. I can get another Joyeuse faster than I can get 2.5mil.
How to get Joyeuse:
Option:1
Step 1: AFK in SSG while you sleep
Step 2: Wake up and check chat log for TOD
Step 3: Option 1: Tell THF friend (and another healer or brd if you're not very confident) when the window opens and to be there. Option 2: wait until window opens and grab whoever is on LS if it's not too heavily camped.
Step 4: Kill charby
Step 5: Take Joyeuse.
Option 2:
Step 1: Go to SSG when you see a 5man jpn party there and watch them wipe.
Step 2: Laugh as they try to hold it by kiting while waiting for more people but die horribly again.
Step 3: Pull it when it turns white and Duo it infront of them while they try to stand on you spamming bard songs and emotes
Step 4: 40 minutes later collect your Joyeuse while the jpn spam you and threaten you with GM calls in poor english.
Step 5: Laugh and warp out.

Option 3:
Step 1: Be fluent in JP, and ask the JP PT if they wouldn't mind helping you kill Charby tomorrow.
Step 2: Profit (and make helpful friends in the process).

[Glued]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

hey guys sorry ive been away from this site for a bit checking on somthings in game

first off im glad to see this post is still alive so i can post my findings here.

first off

i spoke of /dnc as being a viable situational sub job, this has proven to be factual if you are capable of purchasing a SH, OH, PCC and any other +ACC equipment you can find.

as for myself i have nothing but dex rings and a belt i however dont gain an effective amount of TP with this alone.

another downside is the timers on waltzes are all linked together therefore if you cast say healing waltz you can not use another waltz for 15 seconds even if it is a different one.

the steps prove to be quite ineffective and the use of gravity and dia 2 seem to be much more practical to assist the party, as they land more accuratly more often. steps land with +ACC again you need to get more of this for effect to be worthwhile. On top of this the recast on these timers is horendous and usually you cant stick 2 on the mob in a fight with a decent party.

drain samba and aspir saba are not as effective as i thought, it would be much more practical for a rdm to use regen, and if you needed more refresh perhas bring some yag drinks or if you must sub smn or brd.

as for the fact of mp conservation i have decided it a futile thing RDM gets convert for a reason its what makes us capable of getting that party to keep the chain going, this as well as refresh (which in this case of explanation is specifically directed at the rdm not the casting on other members) this spell gives us a 150 points of mp recovery, which is enough to cast a teir 3 spell to end that mobs existance.

As for the damage side of being on the frontline, yes the ACC bonus trait from dancer sounds nice but it is too little to be of any real affect. the overal damage may look like your adding more however any rdm in decent int elemental skill and magic atk+ gear knows 1 or 2 teir 3 spell will out weigh any of our melee damage in a matter of seconds.

I personally think /dnc is not as good as it looks on paper, in no way does it make you a better suport player as i originally thought. it does not make RDM a viable front line job, if you wish to be front line go /blu /pld /nin /drk and load up your acc and str gear. These subs provide a much better reason for RDM to be on the frontline than /dnc could dream to.

*slaps his own face*

speant 300K on decent str and acc gear for naught time to level nin i guess

secondly on the debate on sword vs dagger,

after testing this out with my severly underleveld nin sub (nin) i find it depends on your situation and prefered playstyle.

for test 1 i use kidney dagger main/ww anelace

the attack rating i get is 196 @ lvl 64 with dagger and sword skills @ 135
-also have a bunch of +STR and +ACC gear-(cant check exact gear atm ffxi is messed up on my comp)

with this set up i find it nice to have the dagger WS esspecially cyclone, at 200% tp its pretty deadly. the off hand high damage is nice as well if you like the numbers. The real kicker is the +5% crit rate for kidney dagger which also carriers to WWA sometimes criting for 100ish damage on DC-EM war smilodans in jugner forest (S).

setup 2.

wwa/wwa

with dual wwa's i get 204 attack (including the gear again, ill post it when i get ff running again)

i do more overall damage and get tp at roughly the same time as option 1,
however i am not a fan of sword weaponskills, fast blade is nice but since i dont get vorpal /nin and have yet to get savage blade i generally lean towards option 1

setup 3

kidney dagger/corosive baselard

i chose the baselard because of the lowers defens enfeeble with the weapon.

with haste i build tp stupid fast and it allows me to drop cyclone more often which is nice, the def down lands every so often and adds more damage to my overall DoT.

in closing of this test i personally choose to run around with the dagger/sword option i enjoy both the WS at this level for dagger over sword but also like the occasional crit from wwa is nice to see.

also for the record i have tried wwa/kd swapped in hands but as i said earler sword weaponskills dont impress me as much as daggers.

thirdly id like to wish you a happy late new year i wish you all the best in 2008