Sword vs Dagger

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

ok well plugging in the delays of these weapons kidney dagger and wize wizzards anelace

kidney dager 5+((183-180)*6.5)/270= 5.2
wize wizards anelace 5+ ((226-180)*6.5/270= 6.1

SE rounds down to the nearest whole number so 5% and 6% respectivey please read my above post as i have already calculated the damage over the course of a fight

You're doing it wrong. TP per swing is rounded to the nearest 0.1, not the whole number. The display is whole number, but you can easily see the systems tracks to the 0.1 by swinging 10 times.

Plus, you're using the wrong formula; 180 ~ 450 delay weapons should be using this one:

TP/swing = 5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 6.5] / 270

Kidney Dagger: Dly: 183; 5.0 TP/swing
5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 6.5] / 270
= 5.0 + [(183-180)*6.5] / 270
= 5.0 + [3 * 6.5] / 270
= 5.0 + 19.5 / 270
= 5.0 + 0.722...
= 5.07...
=> 5.0 TP/swing (truncate down to nearest tenth decimal place)

183 delay = 3.05 sec/swing
(5.0 TP/swing) / (3.05 sec/swing) = ~1.64 TP/sec


Wise Wizard's Anelace: Dly: 226; 6.1 TP/swing
5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 6.5] / 270
= 5.0 + [(226-180) * 6.5] / 270
= 5.0 + [46 * 6.5] / 270
= 5.0 + 299 / 270
= 5.0 + 1.107...
= 6.107...
=> 6.1 TP/swing (truncate down to nearest tenth decimal place)

226 delay = 3.766... sec/swing
(6.1 TP/swing) / (3.766 sec/swing) = ~1.62 TP/sec


So, 1.64 TP/sec vs. 1.62 TP/sec using the example weapons you picked. That's barely more than 1% difference in TP gain rate.

* * *

Read it again: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/TP

[Glued]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

hmmm seems alot more different in the game but i suppose numbers dont lie

[Richie]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Even with a Joyeuse available to me, if I were seriously going to try and melee in an XP party, my rate of TP gain would be extremely slow in any party 60+ (TP burn or even manaburn). There's just too many responsibilities shoved onto RDM; main healer, primary enfeebler, Refresh, Haste, status removal, Dispeller, emergency link control. There is no TIME to melee. Usually by the time I'm done casting a Haste and a Refresh, something has already died and the party's on to the next target. I don't have to sub DNC to know I won't have enough TP available to make it worth my time even if I weren't weaponswapping for staves.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. In my pt yesterday on colibri I was doing 5 Hastes, 1.5 Refresh(damn drks), 3 PhalanxII and kept protectIV up. I converted about once every 12 minutes (no ballad) and almost always had 200-300TP.

Also, who derailed this?

[Glued]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

its kinda been back and forth debate between sword and dagger and this /dnc thing which i beleive as you seem to support creates different more versatile role as rdm
also you are talking about joy toy which i do not have access to yet i think ill stick to dagger for the sole reason it offers me more usefull WS if need arises that i use the MP drain is invaluable if i require more mp vs that of circle cut or w/e it is i also urge all rdm's new and old to use dagger and sword both like ive said from the begining, both have their uses however the dagger weaponskills seem to be more like a red mage dont you thin wi the status ailments they provide poision aspir bind, vs the elemental bonus from swords and stun which i find tends to be pretty pathetic

[Richie]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

I support /dnc when used in a merit pt with a bard pulling. So far I have only really tested it on colibri, the pts I had on mamool would have been garbage no matter what I subbed. I really don't see the healing from it being strong enough pre 70(35 sub) or the TP gain high enough without Joyeuse, sword merits and a decent haste/acc build that's not available to most players that aren't 75. And I really don't support melee rdms pre 75 because they will most likely be slacking in their main job if they do.

But if you want to solo pre Joyeuse I guess I would go with dagger for energy drain or if undead use a non piercing sword. It really depends on what you're fighting, what level you are and what's available to you.

[Celeal]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Putting the applications of RDM-melee aside, the selection of sword that RDM can equip is better the the selection of daggers. There are a few outstanding daggers for RDM, but they are far and few in between.

In terms of game mechanics, dagger only offers pierce type damage; sword includes slash or pierce type damage.

TP-wise: If the WS is nothing special, then it does not really matters.

For skillchain: If the party is depending on skillchain to exp. chain, every seconds count. If the skillchain partner's TP reach 100% when the counterpart's TP is not even close to 100%, what is the point?

IMHO, from a non-RDM point of view, RDM-melee works in exp. party if and only if the mob is extremely weak.

[Sabaron]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

its kinda been back and forth debate between sword and dagger and this /dnc thing which i beleive as you seem to support creates different more versatile role as rdm
also you are talking about joy toy which i do not have access to yet i think ill stick to dagger for the sole reason it offers me more usefull WS if need arises that i use the MP drain is invaluable if i require more mp vs that of circle cut or w/e it is i also urge all rdm's new and old to use dagger and sword both like ive said from the begining, both have their uses however the dagger weaponskills seem to be more like a red mage dont you thin wi the status ailments they provide poision aspir bind, vs the elemental bonus from swords and stun which i find tends to be pretty pathetic

We're really not debating. I don't think anyone of note has stated that either Sword or Dagger is superior. They're both useful. Let's take a look and recap the benefits of either:

Dagger

• Low delay means more Enspell damage. Excellent for damage-resistant monsters like Ghosts (25% resistant to pierce/slash) and Elementals (75% physical resistant).
• Specialty Weaponskills: Cyclone (beautiful ranged AoE attack--launch at 200%), Energy Drain (Additional MP pool kick in fights where you're using a lot but don't want to rest).

Sword

• In general, the "best" sword for your level will produce better physical damage output than your "best" dagger--especially end-game when Joyeuse, Justice Sword, and Mensur Epee come into play. The only dagger to come into competition with these three is the beautiful Blau Dolch which still doesn't reach the DPS rates of the three mentioned swords (It beats Mensur Epee in a party, but not solo).

• If you're subbing DRK, BLU or another job that unlocks Vorpal Blade, the 4-hit Sword WS, Sword is probably the best thing to put in your main hand. When you get it, Savage Blade will replace Fast Blade, but make sure you take note when reading the stats for Savage Blade that you should always build 300% TP before launching it because a 300% Savage Blade does more damage on average than 3 100% Savage Blades. The caveat to the 300% rule is that if you're opening Light, you'll want to go at 100% to create more opportunities for Magic Burst.

As for Richie's two posts:

I noticed that you are basically referring to a single situation and that is main healing a Greater Colibri Meripo (assuming /NIN + NIN version) which, I have found, is so mindlessly easy that I don't have to sit and can melee as RDM. The cycle is not terrible since I've only got 3-4 Hastes (not including myself if I want one, but I usually don't give myself one) and 1 Refresh. Enfeebling is also out of the question since if I cast anything the tank usually takes it on mime. Colibri are a weird exception though you spend a lot of time fighting them, and I can see RDM/DNC being useful on them; however, RDM/DNC usefullness is strongly situational. The general direction of this thread is toward the RDM who is transitioning into the lower 50's however, so Meripo usefulness does not address this phase of RDM.

[Armando]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

the arguement i am making that you seem to be avoiding is we are a DoT job id like to see you keep up an arguement that your fast blade will out damage my wasp sting or that your shining blade would out damge my viper bite it wont, since both dagger WS's add DoT however since your probably a screen reader and only look at damage you can see you wouldnt recognize this as benefitial to the party.

Glued, you're an idiot of you think Wasp Sting can do more damage than Fast Blade. Fast Blade does two hits, Wasp Sting does one. Each of Fast Blade's hit does more damage than a normal sword swing (which would already do more damage than a dagger swing) and Wasp Sting does the exact same damage as a dagger swing, all it does is add a sucky Poison effect to the mob. Plus, because Fast Blade has two hits, it's far less likely to miss completely and botch your precious Liquefaction skillchain.

But it doesn't take an intimate knowledge of game mechanics to know that. If you'd ever used a sword once in your life, you'd know that Fast Blade beats Wasp Sting any day of the week. Oh, and Viper Bite sucks too. It may double your Attack, but when it comes down to it, it's still a normal dagger swing. Every damaging dagger WS before Evisceration is pure trash, and whatever damage you can squeeze out of Gust Slash and Cyclone is easily reproduced with a sword.

And guess what: For every dagger you can equip, I can find at least one sword within -/+ 2 levels of it with better DMG/sec.

Sure, you can argue that against high level mobs, your melee damage will do less and your enspell damage will be worth more, but against high level mobs, your enspell damage is going to get resisted, putting you back at square one.

[Gobo]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Cyclone (beautiful AoE Ranged attack--launch at 200%)

I have nothing to contribute other than that edit for great justice. Also Vorpal is only 4 hits.

[Glued]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

i toatally agree with the fact it is a situational sub, i also agree that pre 50 players should focus more on leraning their role as an endgame rdm seeing as nothing we get post 50 really seems to affect our role (sub jobs aside). However like all subs this merely situational sub i find through my practice seems more beneficial toa party than say /blu or /nin in terms of melee use. Keep in mind by melee use im not solely referring to numbers, sure subbing blu will give you vorpal and red lotus blade, however to effectivley use blue you must burn your mp to cast damaging spells which sometimes will miss the target entirley being only half the level of a mob or less. /NIN brings dual weild into play which can be benefitial to the party in terms of skill chaining, as for the reason i only know through other forms but if partying with samurai for instance who sometimes has to solo a skill because know other skill is ready it would be very beneficial tohave a rdm be able to open dark chain with evisceration (as it would be at 75 in a merit party), lastly /dnc in its situational role could be needed and i find more so with a nin tank accomponied by a warrior first voke as is in my party setup. this being said i think in a situation such as mine /dnc out weighs the bonuses provided by /mage job, with the additional damage and healing provided by drain samba, this ability can prove to be invaluable for hp regen for the melee's.

As i have been saying this is another entirely situational sub job choice like all of our sub jobs are we are a very demanded job and our duties are the same, if we can sub a certain job in a certain situation we should do this. all of us know aproper rdm is only as good as the spells and abilities he brings with him. so keeping these mindsets we have to ask ourselves what justifys a certain job and when and what jobs will this entail.

now i can sit here and go on for a long time describing situational subs and why however i think most uf us already know when and where to use certain jobs and for thos that dont honestly it is something you need to learn for yourself and not just read posts on subjects that may be beyond your skill level at the time.

personally i have sch, blu, nin, dnc, whm, blm, brd, and smn leveled to 37 and use them all rather regularily for diferent situations, the only one i wold like to get to this point aswell would be drk which is locked (however seeing as my war is lvl 1 the quest is taking forever and i give up on it till i require use for /war)

as for dagerand sword i have a decent one of both and apply both again situationally. my dagger i tend to use on mobs weak to wind or ice element seeing as i can open and close these chains respectivly, and for all intents and purposes the mobs in my camp areas (aydeewa subteraen, bhaflau thickets, caedavera mire, wajom woodlands) seem to be more often weak to ice and wind then they are fire and light which seem to be the swords main skillchain elements.

however this does not mean i dont condone thuse of swords i am simply saying that in my current situation dagger is better so i use it, i implore all up and comming rdm to keep both sword and dagger capped so you can switch back and forth with out neading to worry about the skill level, and again as with the subjobs you must figure out for yourself when the situation arises for sword or dagger, personnally i appologise to you young rdm if you found my post misleading im just offereing my insight based on my current situation and kind of 1 sided the arguement which i wrong.

The thing to remeber when you choose this job you must realise their is alot of power at your disposal , but with great power comes great reponsibility, levelling this job takes a long time if you want to acheive the full aspect of it, however you could coast to 75 and merits on the back line however their are plenty of situations where you will be better swinging at a mob effectivley than siting on the backline waiting for your next refresh/haste cycle

[Sabaron]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

I have nothing to contribute other than that edit for great justice. Also Vorpal is only 4 hits.

Edited WS hits and added the word ranged.
------------------------------------------

...However like all subs this merely situational sub i find through my practice seems more beneficial toa party than say /blu or /nin in terms of melee use...

BLU is a very useful situational sub-job which I highly recommend you add to your arsenal if you're not already considering it. Wild Carrot and Healing Breeze are more MP-efficient than their /WHM counterparts (Cure III and Curaga). Watch Healing Breeze though, it's not good on mobs that use high-damage AoE effects because it is very slow, has a long recast, and cannot (under any circumstance) replace Curaga II (esp. w/ Divine Seal) for a oh-s___ situation. It's good for "maintenance" healing--I usually concentrate healing on the tank and neglect the DD batch until I see that a couple of them are getting yellow or yellowish (i.e. where 200hp will not top them off) and then toss a Breeze. You also get Cocoon and Vorpal Blade. It's very good in some situations.

NIN as a sub is not really a good party sub--It's a very good solo sub for defensive purposes. In a party, though, you'll not be drawing enough hate to make effective use of your shadows (unless you're 10+ levels higher than your associates). Dual wield by itself is hardly a reason to sub NIN over a DD sub like /DRK. If you want melee damage, Attack Bonus, Last Resort and Soul Eater (remember Soul Eater eats Stoneskin first) will do more damage than Dual Wield especially considering your bonus, and don't forget /BLM for laying down damage on the magic side especially when you're going for a Chainspell nuke sequence in a battlefield.

The thing to remeber when you choose this job you must realise their is alot of power at your disposal , but with great power comes great reponsibility, levelling this job takes a long time if you want to acheive the full aspect of it, however you could coast to 75 and merits on the back line however their are plenty of situations where you will be better swinging at a mob effectivley than siting on the backline waiting for your next refresh/haste cycle.

Back-line is not coasting... You're still advocating a front-line stance Red Mage by saying this. Back line makes Red Mage what it is. Saying this with a rather empty apology just indicates that you "feel" that a Red Mage who is not meleeing in an XP situation isn't "doing their job" which is not the case. Back-line is important for RDM. Front-lining RDM against AoE mobs is stupid--especially if they have effects like AoE Sleep (Mandragora/Sheep), Slow (Spiders), Silencega (Imp), or Knockback (Puk). The knockback effect will block that Cure IV you're using to save your tank and he'll die because of your insistence on being m3133 g0dz0r RDM. If you feel you should be anywhere near the front-line on AoE mobs, you're insane.

[Richie]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

It is strongly situational which is why I don't recommend it before 75. I have 9 subs and the only 2 I don't consider to be strongly situational are blm and whm. /dnc happens to be the best for colibri just like /drk is the best for stuff that needs stunning.

[Glued]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

m3133 g0dz0r ? im sorry i speak english not cyber geek

[Icemage]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

It is strongly situational which is why I don't recommend it before 75. I have 9 subs and the only 2 I don't consider to be strongly situational are blm and whm. /dnc happens to be the best for colibri just like /drk is the best for stuff that needs stunning.

This is the most intelligent post in the thread.


Icemage

[Raydeus]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

m3133 g0dz0r ? im sorry i speak english not cyber geek

I was trying to stay away from this, but if this is the best reply you can come up with to the entire Sabaron's post then you are in trouble.