Sword vs Dagger

[Rain_Blade]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

The original poster is level 5.

Sword at low levels. Forget melee altogether and go with Clubs (specifically wands) somewhere around level 32 for the INT/MND boosts. And forget about wands in favor of Elemental Staves at level 51.


Icemage

Im going to have to disagree with you on this, i myself prefered to melee until thoughts like this cast the rdm into the back line, we are a combat casting mage which is why we ve access to B skills in both sword and dagger.

Now i am not trying to knock you here for your style of play or any thing, this is just how i feel about comments such as this.

As for the topic at hand sword vs dagger has long been debated,

for levels 1-20 i would typically recomend us in sword here the daggers for this level range just dont stack up in DoT whcih is what our job is all about.

post 20 begin using daggers look for ones with low delay over higher damage the point for us is to not get the big numbers like the other melee.


20-71

in these levels i would be using dagger only subbing in sword to keep it capped. by using dagger it gives us some pretty tasty abilities in the drian line of weaponskills for sucking MP from a mob and giving it to ourselves, also as i said before we do not put up big numbers stick to the least delay daggers and with the appropriate enspell you can put up a lot of little numbers really fast which really add up. typically to as much as a normal melee would do minus his/her weaponskills

at level 51 you gain access to elemental staves and for 10 levels or so you may find it hard to melee do to our lacking staff skill and the burden of you duties, however at level 60 and with at least your AF hat and Coat you should be able to drop the staves and pick up the dagger again, be sure to use proper equipment as always enfeebling comes first other things come second. Also around this level youll realise youve been duped by the masses of the partying world and realise you dont need to haste everybody or refresh everybody, i wont ruin the suprise for you but by 60 youll know who to refresh haste and who not to.

at lvl 71 things change with the addition of the final weaponskills
again i lean towards the dagger side of things we are not a big number job by anymeans cure nukes and melee we are DoT, however sword is nice to have levelled and the joy toy is great i recommend subbing ninja and using joytoy of hand.

So afer that long description i personally beleive that dagger fits into our style a bit better than a sword, en-spells work better on daggers and many daggers have great enfeebling traits with them which seems to be our job, keep both leveled and use your own discretion, hope this helps

oh and i forgot to mention try using a /dnc this subjob will give us a permenant accuacy bonus and subtle blow so you wont be a tp builder to the mob, as well as a nice line of tp cures and aspir/drain samba for more effective DoT without wasting your own MP

@ Glued: I think this whole thing started with you suggesting a playstyle that YOU prefer to a new red mage rather than suggesting the common playstyle. The playstyle you prefer might not get him/her some invites or may get him/her kicked out. The common playstyle will get him/her more invites than the playstyle you suggested to him/her. A NEW red mage playing your playstyle might feel miserable of the lack of invites and/or the way people judge you on how you play. I'm not trying to "attack" you or anything by the way. I just think that you continue to say "It's my opinion and it's the way I love my experience" or something related to that, but fail to release you're suggesting this uncommon playstyle to a new red mage and he/she may become confused because he/she got the wrong information. I mean like...there's even a Summoner on Allakhazam that's suggesting to try Melee Summoner.

[Armando]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Glued: You're annoying.

Krut: You're preaching to the choir and when you know game mechanics, you don't have to be a genius to see if something works or doesn't.

Maybe /DNC works in certain party setups and circumstances. That's all well and good. But Glued sure is doing one hell of a poor job at arguing in its favor, since whatever he posts is inaccurate (and that's being generous) more often than not.

[Richie]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

I have been doing a lot of rdm/dnc and I don't think I would do it outside of a bard pulled merit pt so suggesting it to a lvl5 rdm who should be using a wand is just retarded.

[Glued]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

i dont care if you think i am annoying.

the arguement i am making that you seem to be avoiding is we are a DoT job id like to see you keep up an arguement that your fast blade will out damage my wasp sting or that your shining blade would out damge my viper bite it wont, since both dagger WS's add DoT however since your probably a screen reader and only look at damage you can see you wouldnt recognize this as benefitial to the party.

Wheres the weaponskill that allows swords to stick a decent DoT effect to a target oh thats right it dosent have one

as for the tp gain arguement
dagger 5%
sword 6%

typically a dagger attacks slightly less than 1.5 times for each sword atack so doing basic math

2 sword x 6% = 12 % 3 dagger x 5%= 15%
15 sword x 6% = 90% 20 dagger x 5%= 100% weapon skill
17 sword x 6% = 102% 3 dagger x 5%= 10%
weaponskill
2 sword x 6% = 12% 6 dagger x 5%= 30%
15 sword x 6% = 90% 14 dagger x 5%= 100% weaponskill
17 sword x 6% = 102% 9 dagger x 5%= 45%
weaonskill

as you can see by this simple calculation chart the dagger gains rather quickly on the sword due to the ammount of attacks it gets at a higher speed, the dagger is already half way to the 3rd weaponskill as the sword is just starting to gain for it.

as for enspell damage you can do it the same way

assuming your enspell is hitting effectivley at 12 points of damage for arguements sake

using the same basis

2 sword attacks 24 damage 3 dagger attacks 36 damage

as for weapon damage itself i will use my personal weapons if anyone would like to check weapons on their charecter please do.

sword wize wizzards annelace hits from 35-40 damage
dagger kidney dagger hits 20-30 damage (occasionally crits from 30-40*will leave this out for accucy sake*)

so again we will do our base formula

2 sword 70-80 3 dagger 60-90

adding in enspell damage we have

sword hiting 2 times for 94-104
dagger hitting for 96-126

facotring this damage with the conclusion drawn from out first calculation the
sword damages for about 94-104 every 2 hits and getts 2 weaponskills
the dagger damages for about 96-126 every 3 hits and gets 2 weaponskills and 45% gain on the sword

depending on the weaponskill chosen is what will provide a larger gap for the dagger or sword however keep in mind if it so happens you are getting many skillchains a fight dagger will win hands down.

it is a very close race and really depends on personal preferance i choose dagger for more little number over time as well as viper bite which poisons a target as well as damages this damage i couldnt begin to tell you what it is all i know is it is their and adds more damage done overall by the dagger.

[Krut]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Wierd got disconnected while I was typing, that's what i get for soloing SCH and posting at the same time I guess.

Anyways I typed a lot and don't wanna put it all up, basically what I said was, New players should form their own opinions about their jobs/equipment and subjobs on their own, as we all should.

Don't stop experimenting with new things just because you found something that works, because you might find something that rocks. Also Icemage did you say that the 100MP boost from a /mage job is imperitive? and that you are a Taru? if so talk to me when you hit 75, at 75 I can spit 100 Mp on the ground and still function for 3 more fights. It's called convert, and it isn't just for emergancies.

[Sabaron]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

...
as for the tp gain arguement
dagger 5%
sword 6%

typically a dagger attacks slightly less than 1.5 times for each sword atack so doing basic math

2 sword x 6% = 12 %

You don't understand the mechanic. TP gain is scaled based on delay so that two people with equal stats will arrive at 100% TP at approximately the same time. This facilitates Skillchains. No weapon is superior.

Schwert: 5.9TP/hit, 221 Delay. 5.9/221*60 = 1.60TP/s
Harpe: 5.7TP/hit, 210 Delay. 5.7/210*60 = 1.63TP/s

The Harpe gets .03 TP over Schwert each second, so it takes 33 seconds for the dagger to get 1% TP--based on this difference the Harpe user will get an extra WS every 330 sec (5.5 min). The formula for TP gain is based on the delay of the weapon--not the type, and it is fixed so that all weapons are roughly equal. You will find this relative truth in almost any weapon you look at with the exception of weapons like Joyeuse, Ridill, and Kraken Club which get multiple attacks per delay cycle. Oh, and extra TP is for naught if you're at 103% when you blast your WS--the extra 3% may scale the damage, but naught else.

Darksteel Maul: 8.75TP/hit, 340 Delay. 8.75/340*60 = 1.54TP/s
Nodachi: 11.5TP/hit, 450 Delay. 11.5/450*60 = 1.53TP/s
Yoto: 6.2TP/hit 232 Delay. 6.2/232*60 = 1.60TP/s
etc..

Also, if you don't have a good WS, you're often better off using Fast Blade because it's a double hit which will, in general, beat anything off a dagger except an unresisted Cyclone (which is most efficiently launched at 200%). If you don't have Vorpal (4 hits) or Savage (2 hits), stick with Fast Blade for damage and Flat Blade for Stun effect. When using a dagger for DPS, you should stay with Cyclone activated at 200% until you get Evisceration. Wasp Sting and Viper Bite are laughable without THF's AGI and DEX bonuses. Viper Bite doesn't even scale based on TP--it's modifier is always 1.00. Fast Blade Scales 1.0 > 1.5 > 2.0 with TP and so does Cyclone. Cyclone is the most powerful WS RDM gets until Evisceration. When I'm using dagger, though, I am most often using the dagger to supplement MP regeneration against Magic-using Mobs by WS'ing Energy Drain which can be quite useful when you're using a lot of MP and can't rest.

Let's take one last look at the TP thing.

Schwert: 100% TP / 5.9TP/hit = 16.9 (17 hits) 17 * 5.9 = 100.3% (17 * 221 / 60 = 63 seconds/WS)
Harpe: 100% TP / 5.7TP/hit = 17.5 (18 hits) 18 * 5.7 = 102.6% (18 * 210 / 60 = 63 seconds/WS)

You will notice that the Harpe wastes 2.3% more TP per WS than the Schwert which further equalizes the TP gain rate since this extra 2.3% disappears when you launch. Since it takes 63 seconds to WS, the extra TP (1% every 33 seconds) you got from Dagger being ever-so-slightly faster is lost (wrt to launching WS) when you WS every time you reach threshold.

[Rain_Blade]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Wierd got disconnected while I was typing, that's what i get for soloing SCH and posting at the same time I guess.

Anyways I typed a lot and don't wanna put it all up, basically what I said was, New players should form their own opinions about their jobs/equipment and subjobs on their own, as we all should.

Don't stop experimenting with new things just because you found something that works, because you might find something that rocks. Also Icemage did you say that the 100MP boost from a /mage job is imperitive? and that you are a Taru? if so talk to me when you hit 75, at 75 I can spit 100 Mp on the ground and still function for 3 more fights. It's called convert, and it isn't just for emergancies.

But what if it works AND rocks?

[Krut]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

If it works AND rocks you have discovered the "Krutmage" all skills 255 all hits do OVER 9000! damage.

[Icemage]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Don't stop experimenting with new things just because you found something that works, because you might find something that rocks. Also Icemage did you say that the 100MP boost from a /mage job is imperitive? and that you are a Taru? if so talk to me when you hit 75, at 75 I can spit 100 Mp on the ground and still function for 3 more fights. It's called convert, and it isn't just for emergancies.

Ahem. If you'll click on my character information, you'll see that I'm a level 75 Taru RDM. I also have 5 levels of Convert merits, and a 1131 MP Convert ratio in ToAU zones.



100MP is 100MP. Even for me. That's an extra nuke I can toss to try and hold an XP chain together, or a failsafe Cure IV to save a melee who just got hammered.

Even with all that MP flow, there are still times when my MP pools are challenged; if you're just doing the typical chain 5 party, then no, you don't need all that MP, but when I'm trying to maintain a chain bonus and going for XP chain #100+, I'll take every advantage I can squeeze out of my gear and playstyle, and be thankful for it.


Icemage

[Krut]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Maybe I just think 100 MP is nothing because you can cap out your mp with a simple convert. With 5 merits in Convert time then I don't see how 100 Mp is an issue at all, not to mention glued explained he would be saving MP using TP to cure.

Maybe It'll work there Icemage, and hey maybe it wont. Why don't you go try it for yourself and then come back to talk about it with an educated opinion because between the 4 of us it seems like Glued is the only one doing any research.

I'm not sayin your wrong Icemage, and I'm not saying your right. Just try if before you dismiss it. What's the worst that could happen you'll waste a few hours of time you could have used doing the same exact thing you've done for the last 75 levels... and if you don't what to try it than stop talking about it and dismiss it all together, you dont want /dnc you dont need /dnc and you arnt even interested in /dnc? well than forget about /dnc and play some cookie cutter rdm.

[Glued]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

i dnt understand where you pull 5.9 and 5.7 from the tp gain rate for swords is 6 and tp gain rate for dagger is 5

please reread my post i mistakenly posted it prior to finishing, and if tp gain is designed on delay and sword is as close to dagger as you say why does my thf in my static get roughly 3-4 weapon skills vs the palidin who uses a sword.

as for your mp thing at 100 you say its nice to have for a cure 4 or a nuke, if this is the case why would my /dnc not be better using tp cures leaving me with plenty
of mp remaining not be better of than you for an emergency cure or nuke, also for an extended convert cycle.

i rely on the 10 minute cycle and i can make my mp last this and then some rather easily the TP cures and healing (erase) waltz's only increase this time frae allowing me to easily keep up with mu job's demands.

as for 75 merit parties i dont know much outside of what ive read however the situatinal role we play as far as can tell remains the same from when we got refresh, the extra mp i save from /dnc will not make me fret when im trying to hold on for convert.

[Icemage]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Maybe I just think 100 MP is nothing because you can cap out your mp with a simple convert. With 5 merits in Convert time then I don't see how 100 Mp is an issue at all, not to mention glued explained he would be saving MP using TP to cure.

Maybe It'll work there Icemage, and hey maybe it wont. Why don't you go try it for yourself and then come back to talk about it with an educated opinion because between the 4 of us it seems like Glued is the only one doing any research.

I'm not sayin your wrong Icemage, and I'm not saying your right. Just try if before you dismiss it. What's the worst that could happen you'll waste a few hours of time you could have used doing the same exact thing you've done for the last 75 levels... and if you don't what to try it than stop talking about it and dismiss it all together, you dont want /dnc you dont need /dnc and you arnt even interested in /dnc? well than forget about /dnc and play some cookie cutter rdm.

My main observation with RDM is that you're too busy casting to fight. I spent the majority of my RDM levelling career as RDM/BRD, so I'm not exactly unfamiliar with unusual builds.

Even with a Joyeuse available to me, if I were seriously going to try and melee in an XP party, my rate of TP gain would be extremely slow in any party 60+ (TP burn or even manaburn). There's just too many responsibilities shoved onto RDM; main healer, primary enfeebler, Refresh, Haste, status removal, Dispeller, emergency link control. There is no TIME to melee. Usually by the time I'm done casting a Haste and a Refresh, something has already died and the party's on to the next target. I don't have to sub DNC to know I won't have enough TP available to make it worth my time even if I weren't weaponswapping for staves.

I'm sure there are situations where RDM/DNC is a viable combination, but first-hand experimentation for me will have to wait until I have Dancer levelled to 37, and that's not happening any time soon since I'm still working on Scholar. It's not a horrible combination, and might actually be pretty good in the 10-40 range for RDM, pre-Convert, but I take issue with it being presented as an equal option, particularly at higher levels where experience shows that the techniques being discussed simply will not work due to insufficient time to engage in melee.


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

@ Glued: Here, truth:

You don't understand the mechanic.

Hint: If you're eyeballing something and then come to a conclusion, you're doing it wrong. If your grand statements regarding anything starts with "I feel...", you're probably mistaken. It's not about how you feel, it's about what is, and what isn't.

Dagger doesn't get TP significantly faster than sword, period.

Don't care what we think? Fine. But, we're not about to stand by and let you spew moronic nonsense to new RDMs unchecked. And, no, I don't care how you "feel" about that or about your dagger's TP.

Wrong, is wrong.

[Icemage]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

@ Glued: Here, truth:

Hint: If you're eyeballing something and then come to a conclusion, you're doing it wrong. If your grand statements regarding anything starts with "I feel...", you're probably mistaken. It's not about how you feel, it's about what is, and what isn't.

Dagger doesn't get TP significantly faster than sword, period.
Don't care what we think? Fine. But, we're not about to stand by and let you spew moronic nonsense to new RDMs unchecked. And, no, I don't care how you "feel" about that or about your dagger's TP.
Wrong, is wrong.

More specifically.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/TP

That's the correct calculation for TP, easily verified in-game by experimentation.


Icemage

[Glued]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

ok well plugging in the delays of these weapons kidney dagger and wize wizzards anelace

kidney dager 5+((183-180)*6.5)/270= 5.2
wize wizards anelace 5+ ((226-180)*6.5/270= 6.1

SE rounds down to the nearest whole number so 5% and 6% respectivey please read my above post as i have already calculated the damage over the course of a fight