Sword vs Dagger

[Sabaron]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

well to say i dont know what im talking about is an insult, and i dont much appreciate it. however if you read my post i say i use elemental staves in certain situations, and by no means did i say a red mage should melee all the time, and by know means am i trying to mislead people from doing what the community feels is right.

do i feel i am a rdm who refuses to play backline absolutley not i will back line i do backline, however with /dnc we gain a whole new line of cures and healing abilities which dont require us to use mp, which makes us more useful to the party in the long run. refresh and haste can be cast from the front line and instead of wasting mp curing the party you can burn tp instead.

as with all sub's this is a completley situational sub and as beneficial as subbing whm unless you are not a taru and rely on the mp boost from a /mage job.

as for the use of elemental staves in spells i have the majority of staves at HQ quality if i need to i use them, but again if you read my post you note i cast all my enfeebles in the first 30-5 seconds of the fight, at which point i would normally begin the refresh haste cycle, i do not require the staves to land the high accuracy enfeebles like slow paralyze, and my high native mind ensures my gravity sticks nearly everytime without a staff so these can be recasted at antime.

the arguemnt im trying to make here is solely that /dnc allows you the option of assisting your party in a different way (not a better or worse way) than /whm or /blm, and as always im not detering away from our regular duties, but however to preform this job you must have an understanding in several key areas, firstly you need to learn how to cast a spell as your hiting the monster it is invaluable to tp gain, secondly what a skill chain is and where you fit in, a rdm meleeing in a party should always use dagger o we can open skill chains for the heavier hitting DD to land on and we can then burst said chain, by doing this we have just assisted the party in more DoT.

Also we can assist the party in hate control, now ive only tested this breifly and if proper stats are on your rdm it is possible for you to become a secondary voke, or a thf's sata partner, stoneskin gives us a breif amount of time taking no damage, enough time for say a ninja to get his shadows up again.

In addition to all this you have a line of cures at your disposal that do not require mp and generally cure for more than its magical counterpart. drain samba and aspir samba will assist the party in keeping health higher and allow for you the dark the blu and any other frontline mage job to regain MP per hit.

Am i saying this job is a great dd no am i saying its a good dd no, am i saying rdm should all scrap mage subs for dd no, infact i am still working with this new combo peicing together a write up soi can tell all rdm's my findings on it and possibly introduce them to a new side to the game, we dont have to be a backline job if you know how to play the job properly, however i understand not all people arerich like me in the game and cant afford the high end stuff i speak of, in which case you should decide if this is worth it or not for you, if you cant land enfeebles on a mob 4-5 levels higher than you without the aid of staves perhaps you need to do something about that equipment or skill wise before trying this otherwise you will be embarassed by the mobs resistance.

and just for you incase you cant understand by bogled thoughts

rdm party role
enfeeb>>> refresh(not all need it) >>>haste(not all need it)>>>> rest>>>> restart

my personal style
enfeeb>>> attack mob>>> refresh>>>haste>>> keep party alive with TP cures saving MP

How extensive has your testing been?

I'm thinking if you're maining a PT 55+ your main cycle will be too long to really effectively build TP against XP mobs--most mobs you're fighting are VT/IT--are you eating Sushi? Also remember, most mobs last under 1 minute.

[Glued]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

well for one i do eat sushi i dont require mp or int from pie as i am a taru and yes i know most mobs dont last longer than a minute 2 at the most however i suppose for the base of this arguement i should tell you i am in a static where i only require refresh and only haste 3 people including myself so the cycle takes no time at all and usually last for a mob and a half sometimes 2.

on a side note i feel this topic has gotten off track the question at hand is dagger vs sword and in my oipinon dagger is the better for faster tp gain and enspells, i only offered my veiw as /dnc as a reason for melee in a party.

naturally as with all subs its situational but if you do plan to melee in a party and are in a setup where this can be done like myself /dnc is a viable subjob that offers support for your melee and support to the party through the tp abilities

im not saying this job is going to replace /whm or /blm by any means but it is now another job that will offer us a great addition to our situational role that we play in most xp parties.

if you wish to debate more on the subject of /dnc i will happily open a new topic which i plan to do as i explore more deeply into this job combonation.

dagger in itself opens many great damaging skill chains and allows for a greater array of MB for yourselfor the BLM.SCH in the party, it is in my opinion the only weapon a rdm should use until the joytoy and even then if you plan on meleeing i recomend using dagger at high levels because of the speed and weaponskills it offers.


as for the question dagger> sword we are not a high damage job we can not keep up with a warrior but we do excel at DoT, with dagger and enspell our damage adds up fairly fast, and again we are able to open some pretty nice skill chains which many dont take into account if for example a rdm uses evisceration to open a chain it lowers an enemies resistance to the coresponding element, resaulting in a higher damaging closing by a true DD, this AD (assisted damage) goes unnoticed by everybody because the game does not tell us how it works all we see is the numbers on the screen. RDM is not a DD and im not saying it is and im not suggesting that RDM should e there swinging, the AD rdm gives is nice however this entirely situational postion is only capable if you are able to do the rest of your jobs effectivly, that meansenfeebling and keeping refresh/haste if the burden is to large backline it if you are able to get into a static where you have minimal duties outside of enfeebling by all means the AD is welcomed, infact most parties do not mind RDM meleeing as long as we do our job properly and do not get distracted, we have a dagger skill for a reason and parties know this, not meleeing is something we do to ourselves as the rdm community, and i agree at times we are over burdened with tasks and meleeing dosent seem feasable, but its not impossible it takes alot of work to do the RDM job all aspects of it are very time consuming and require plenty of focus.

I used to backline it because the burden of the refresh haste cycle as a new late game rdm overwhelmed me, the fact my enfeebles didnt stick and seemed to cure more often than not, but this was just a learning exprience i have come through and with my equipment no longer require staffs to land the big 3 and can keep haste refresh up with no trouble, also now that other jobs have become better with their abilities as we have all grown i find i do not cure as much, this leaves plenty of time and room for me to melee, playing this job effectivley means mastering enfeebs, refresh, haste, proper curring, and when to nuke, as well as melee which most people forget about, its all about confidence in yourself and you party to know what they are doing and you are doing, its about prediciting what the other jobs will do next, the experience you gain through parties should not just go to you charecter but to you as a player, to be able to help the party anyway it can is the true art of a rdm and that includes meleeing at appropriate times
and with the appropriate weapon that suits our job, the dagger

[Armando]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Dagger doesn't open much of anything worth mentioning other than Gravitation (which barely anything save for Penta Thrust can decently close.) Also, RDM's dagger selection leaves a lot to be desired, and it's already a so-so weapon type in the mid levels. Plus its WS suck until Evisceration. Gust Slash can be decent but Burning Blade will put up the same numbers (while opening Fusion, which MNKs are very apt for closing, early on with Combo, and later with Raging Fists.)

Also, less walls of text please.

[Lmnop]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Evisceration opens Distortion.

Wtg, guys. You've let yet another thread turn into a melee vs mage RDM topic.

[BurningPanther]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Evisceration opens Distortion.
Wtg, guys. You've let yet another thread turn into a melee vs mage RDM topic.

Aren't those the only kinds anymore?

[Armando]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

That aside, so does Savage Blade ;P

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

and in my oipinon dagger is the better for faster tp gain and enspells,

Agreed on en-spells benefiting less from swords (except Joyeuse), but why would dagger give (substantially) better TP gain?

Also, if you use staves at the start of the fight, then switch to dagger (or sword), how much TP would you have? Would it be enough to get decent use out of /DNC? Something just seems off about match a casting intensive job to a TP use intensive support job.

* * *

Getting back to dagger vs. sword at low levels: stick to swords for soloing, get out of the front line if there's AoE attack (or just stay in the back and rest for MP when not casting), and play around with dagger when farming. Both sword and dagger skills will be useful at higher levels, but sword wins the damage game for the beginner RDMs.

[Glued]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

thats what im working on at the moment i personally enjoy experimenting with different subs for my favorite job i was one of the first on my server to play around with rdm/blu which for all intents and purpouses is a crazy sub, burning blade and vorapl blade made sword worth using, the stat boosts from spells allowed you to max out your enfeebling gear and mnd int without needing to sacrafice it for melee damage and acc.

as for dagger vs sword for tp gain cast haste on yourself and attack with a dagger then do the same for a sword i dont know if its just me but i find a noticible difference in the speed at which dagger generates TP

Dagger weapon skills open more powerful skillchains such as distortion, which BLM's burst on with the hgher ranked blizzard, which for some reason seems to hit harder than thunder more often (if anyone can tell me why this is id greatly apreciate it)

Sword to me isnt worthwhile until the joytoy, albeit it does build TP nearly as quick as dagger it dosent carry the same speed to do damage with enspells which is really the only way our damage can add up to decent numbers

RDM does not have naturally inherent amount of str or acc however i find that daggers seem to land more often than not compared to a sword, and due to the fact we dont have much str and we rely on enspells that puts dagger as top weapon in my books the DoT from dagger seems to out do that from swords as far as i can tell because of the amount of times enspell takes effect.

Im not trying to turn this into a debate between melee and casting rdm im simply trying to answer a question based on my knowledge of the dagger vs sword debate, i only commented on dnc because at higher levels our accuracy drops off greatly and its the only sub we can use (effectivley due to the skill set it provides) that offers us both subtle blow and an accuracy bonus.

Do i think RDM should melee, yes in certain situations lke i described in my last post, everyone who seems to be involved in this debate should know when those situations are, yes we are a mage class first and i have covered that, and a melee second, the fact is it is possible for RDM to do it effectivley and to do so takes the right person at the steering wheel.

Its the endless debate that will never be finished however i see more and more "Hybrid" RDM's as people are begining to get comfortable with their workload and are trying to return to the frontline, some good some bad the fact is some of us are trying to do different things and increase our roll in the party to help in diferent ways, while others are sitting here in forums flamming us for doing it.

Perhaps you nay sayers who sit on the backline are comfortable there, i am to, hower there comes a time when things need to change, personally for me i have delved into the combat caster role my gear is designed to be an effective enfeebler without the aid of staves and an effective melee without sacraficing my duties to the party. I have had to do UO about 7 times (and am 5/7 on a PCC and NI double drop ) so i can afford to get decent gear that does not hinder me either way, i know some people can not afford this and i understand that however those of us who are able to buy HQ gear can have Hbrid builds that allow us to do both sides of the fence effectivley.

And in closing because i do not wish to carry on this melee mage debate any longer i implore you naysayers who refuse to try and change new things wheter you are comfortable in your role or you just try and put others down to try this sometime get the gear get the tools for the job, until i began this melee endevour RDM was getting stale to me, being in PT's with a whm who didnt seem to do anything but take a free ride on my back, being in parties with a blm who didnt cast as often as he could because he had a rdm their to support nuke, frankly im tired of the role we have been painted into i guess you could say im biased in my opinions maybe so but at least im still doing my job and i am going above that to assist the party in other ways as well, we dont just need to assist through being MP sinks for haste refresh and cures the faster a mob dies the less MP i need to sink, if i only do 24 damage with a dagger and 16 from and enspell i dont care thats 40 more damage a swing the mob takes,. to call ourselves TP builders is shameful BLU dumps a stupid amount of TP to a monster with the big 3 our pidly amount from a dagger attack is chicken shit compared to our true DD counterparts.

If you have anything else to say on this matter, lets take it to one of the 6 million rdm melee fourms scattered across the web, if you want to talk about why i fell dagger is better then we can stay right here, if you want to flame me for being a rouge rdm and trying new things go ahead, i know i help my party im one of the better rdm"s on my server and get told this all the time, the only thing you need to d is prove to yourself you can do it then prove it to a party, its all about you not others others arent playing for you if you cant do it it is because you dont think you can, honestly its all about confidence in yourself as a player if you have confidence in your play style and confidence you can try something new to have a different style then you can and it will show and your party's will see it too.

[Armando]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Stop. Quite frankly...

This

rdm/blu which for all intents and purpouses is a crazy sub, burning blade and vorapl blade made sword worth using, the stat boosts from spells allowed you to max out your enfeebling gear and mnd int without needing to sacrafice it for melee damage and acc.

and this

as for dagger vs sword for tp gain cast haste on yourself and attack with a dagger then do the same for a sword i dont know if its just me but i find a noticible difference in the speed at which dagger generates TP

and this

Dagger weapon skills open more powerful skillchains such as distortion, which BLM's burst on with the hgher ranked blizzard, which for some reason seems to hit harder than thunder more often (if anyone can tell me why this is id greatly apreciate it)

and this

Sword to me isnt worthwhile until the joytoy, albeit it does build TP nearly as quick as dagger it dosent carry the same speed to do damage with enspells which is really the only way our damage can add up to decent numbers

and this

RDM does not have naturally inherent amount of str or acc however i find that daggers seem to land more often than not compared to a sword, and due to the fact we dont have much str and we rely on enspells that puts dagger as top weapon in my books the DoT from dagger seems to out do that from swords as far as i can tell because of the amount of times enspell takes effect.

is wrong.

Not only that, you're blowing out of proportion dagger's advantages. IF dagger has an advantage (a questionable proposition,) it's marginal. Swords in general do better melee damage and that'll counteract and probably exceed the extra enspell damage from more swings. Might I remind you that enspells can be resisted.

And that's as far as I cared to read your post. Speaking of which, I really need to emphasize that EVERYONE WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE IT IF YOU SPLIT YOUR ESSAYS INTO PARRAGRAPHS AND YOUR PARRAGRAPHS INTO SENTENCES. Your posts are downright painful to read. Nothing personal, by the way.

[Glued]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

as i said i dont care for people who art trying to put my views down. as for proper sentance structure i care not if its hard to read dont read it. as for you trying to tell me im wrong on these things i dont care, evidently you missed the parts of my post where i state this is my opinion.

as for the debate at hand i really dont care what you guys are saying against me i am trying to answer someones question. if you want to debate me on sword vs dagger then fine state your reasons for this and i will rebutle them. Until then i will spout of on promoting the use of dagger as a main weapon for the sole purpoe I FEEL IT IS BETTER, see i said i feel it is better i didnt say it was better. PERSONALLY (see again refering to myself) I (myself again) think (in the currents sentance this word is a verb as to my thoughts my personal thoughts) that dagger is better, I (me again) have sword leveled equally to dagger and find it to be less usefull for me (myself)

as for proper structuring of paragraphs.

Paragraph

Noun. a collection of ideas or statements pertaining to a similar context or arguement

thusly i do properly construct paragraphs, pagraphs can be 1- unlimted number of sentances, statements, etc if they pertain to the same context. perhaps you should study english more or read some essays. If i remeber correctly writing essays you can have pages that are all the same paragraph i could be wrong though maybe im speaking german or japanese i can write in straight lines if you like.

T F Y I T
H O O N H
A R U P O
N R U U
K T G
S H

[Icemage]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Egad @ the Walls O' Text.

I said you don't know what you're talking about because... well... you don't. I'm sorry, but it's true.

as with all sub's this is a completley situational sub and as beneficial as subbing whm unless you are not a taru and rely on the mp boost from a /mage job.

I'm Taru, and I still abuse the heck out of /mage subs on RDM. Maybe you don't appreciate an extra ~100mp every 10 minutes for Converts, but I assure you most people do. That extra 100mp covers a LOT of those little issues you've been harping about regarding things like status cures, incidentally. At best you're at a zero sum game.

as for the use of elemental staves in spells i have the majority of staves at HQ quality if i need to i use them, but again if you read my post you note i cast all my enfeebles in the first 30-5 seconds of the fight, at which point i would normally begin the refresh haste cycle, i do not require the staves to land the high accuracy enfeebles like slow paralyze, and my high native mind ensures my gravity sticks nearly everytime without a staff so these can be recasted at antime.

Wow. Where to begin?

(1) Good RDMs don't wait for fights to start to "start a Refresh/Haste cycle" - those spells are cast on a continuous rotation, and are interrupted only if an emergency appears (Dispel, someone going into red HP, whatever).

(2) Tarutaru have the lowest MND in the game. I don't know where you get this idea that you have high MND, but I assure you it is not true.

(3) In any case, Gravity isn't impacted by MND - it's black magic, and is resisted based on INT, which Tarutaru have good amounts of. That said, it's still a wildly inaccurate spell even with tons of INT, elemental staves, +enfeebling gears and merits, let alone without.

the arguemnt im trying to make here is solely that /dnc allows you the option of assisting your party in a different way (not a better or worse way) than /whm or /blm, and as always im not detering away from our regular duties, but however to preform this job you must have an understanding in several key areas, firstly you need to learn how to cast a spell as your hiting the monster it is invaluable to tp gain, secondly what a skill chain is and where you fit in, a rdm meleeing in a party should always use dagger o we can open skill chains for the heavier hitting DD to land on and we can then burst said chain, by doing this we have just assisted the party in more DoT.

Adding to your list of misundertandings:

- Spellcasting doesn't interrupt your melee timer, it just puts it on hold while your spell is being cast.

- Pray explain to me what skillchains you're opening with Dagger in the level 50-some range you claim to be at. Detonation? Liquefaction? Reverberation? Gravitation? Be still my beating heart!

Also we can assist the party in hate control, now ive only tested this breifly and if proper stats are on your rdm it is possible for you to become a secondary voke, or a thf's sata partner, stoneskin gives us a breif amount of time taking no damage, enough time for say a ninja to get his shadows up again.

So let me get this straight. You believe it's a good thing to make your red mage (who isn't resting for MP since he's too busy flailing away with a toothpick) to grab hate and tank using Blink/Stoneskin (using even more MP) versus a job that might intrinsically have shadows or other enmity/evade defenses that don't require MP (BLU/NIN, DNC/NIN, SAM/anything, DRG/whatever)? Red mage is my second to last choice for a trick attack partner behind your healer.

In addition to all this you have a line of cures at your disposal that do not require mp and generally cure for more than its magical counterpart. drain samba and aspir samba will assist the party in keeping health higher and allow for you the dark the blu and any other frontline mage job to regain MP per hit.

...except that you just sacrificed ~100MP from not subbing a mage job, and another ~50MP from not using a magic-boosting food, so now you're down ~150 or so MP every 10 minutes. How is this a cost savings, again?

Am i saying this job is a great dd no am i saying its a good dd no, am i saying rdm should all scrap mage subs for dd no, infact i am still working with this new combo peicing together a write up soi can tell all rdm's my findings on it and possibly introduce them to a new side to the game, we dont have to be a backline job if you know how to play the job properly, however i understand not all people arerich like me in the game and cant afford the high end stuff i speak of, in which case you should decide if this is worth it or not for you, if you cant land enfeebles on a mob 4-5 levels higher than you without the aid of staves perhaps you need to do something about that equipment or skill wise before trying this otherwise you will be embarassed by the mobs resistance.

Against VT or higher enemies, even with fully merited (8 levels) of Enfeebling and good gears in the 50s, it was nearly impossible to reliably land the most important enfeebles (Silence, Sleep, Sleep II). We can babble all we want about Slow and Paralyze until the cows come home, but while those spells are important, they're not vital the way Silence and Sleep are. I'm sure your party will be simply thrilled to know your TP cures are there after you've just gotten slammed by Firaga II because you failed to Silence that spellcasting enemy.


Icemage

[Armando]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

It doesn't matter what your opinion is or how you feel about your dagger's performance if it's wrong. That's kind of the point in pointing those things out. Daggers are not more accurate than swords, because RDM has the same skill rating in both weapons. Blizzard does not do more damage than Thunder, unless you're nuking something that's Thunder resistant. Daggers do not open "more damaging Skillchains."

If i remeber correctly writing essays you can have pages that are all the same paragraph i could be wrong though maybe im speaking german or japanese i can write in straight lines if you like.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Try it some time, I'm sure you'll lose a big chunk out of your grade.

And you should care about the legibility of your posts. This is a forum. If you're posting here, it's for others to read your posts. Making hard-to-read posts is a waste of everyone's time.

[Sabaron]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

...on a side note i feel this topic has gotten off track the question at hand is dagger vs sword and in my oipinon dagger is the better for faster tp gain and enspells, i only offered my veiw as /dnc as a reason for melee in a party...

This particular thread had it's real answers on page one. The rest of it is just tangential conversation. Since a sequence of very good answers have already been given the thread's life is basically limited by the ideas arising as a result of the initial thread. It can no longer be an "on-topic" thread and be relevant or interesting. I believe there's already a RDM/DNC thread somewhere which we can necro (It'll be a good fleshy zombie, the thread is recent--hardly recognizable as such).

[Glued]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

ok well i never claimed i was a lvl 50 something mage im lvl 65 and have enfeebling torue enfeebling earring and my tabard that adds 25 to my enfeebling skill i have +35 MND from the rest of my equipment which more than enough cover my lack there of and again if you look at my previous posts im in a statci and refresh only myself i also have a bard who casts ballad on me i rarely drop below 500 MP and we keep chain 5-7 regualrily.

If you guys would read my previous post youll see that i clearly state that ths is how i see it and how it goes for me, i dont care if you cant land your spells i can, your issues is not my problem, im stating what i do and what ive found works from my exerience, i could care less of your setups or your styles, if i did i would have asked you. i see this has now just turned into a flame glueds play style topic and will happily debate you until im blue in the face

for you to sit here and tell me how to play my RDM is insane, i dont tell you how to play yours so dont tell me how to play mine i have HQ elemental staves for ice dark wind and stone, i garuntee that at level 75 i will be ale to out play any of you regardless of the sub i choose, i have taken playing this job to a science and know that i play it at a better ability than most. i suppose to say i can out play you is outrageous and i appologize but again my end game set up will be better than 90% of the RDM i have seen, and the fact that i can do my job while meleeing adds to my skill set over you who just coast by on the refresh/haste cycle to full merits.

If i wanted to play as a backline charecter i would play as one but i dont, so i dont, i dont give two shits about how you think i should play, its people like you that cause RDM to be deemed a boring job and no fun because when you play it the way you do it is not.

If you think playing your backline style is more effective then me good your entitled to your opinions and i am mine, swords suck daggers arent much better RDM has a crap melee skill either way, however you can take your swd and ill use my dagger and i garuntee you i will out damage you over an equal legnth fight i would put money on it.

Im tired of you nay sayers flooding fourms and topics negating the fact RDM can melee, it is because of you and people like you our job suffers in a prison of boredom, its because of you that all the xbox players have been taught RDM never melee and dont, its because of you that these types of arguements will never cease to exist, take peoples opinions as their own and leave it at that, i grant you ur opinions and your styles grant me mine and stop fucking peppering me with your BS nonsense answers that dont mean anything to me, maybe one day if i come to the fourm and ask a question saying should rdm melee or is backline play better than frontline, then you can give me your shitty details about it until then i have my opinion and i have my style it works for me and it works for my party if it doesn't work for you i dont give a shit you can go fuck yourself.

enjoy my wall of text thats a proper paragraph all the sentences point to the same thing I DONT CARE WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT MY IDEAS but dont tell me how to play my job, im better than you

[Krut]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

To be perfectly honest I'm going to commend Glued for searching for ways to improve his job, I'm sick and damn tired of red mages hopping into Black Mage manaburns and freeloading their way to 75 and merits while half assing the refreshes, hastes and nukes.

How long is it going to be before you red mages finally learn that there is no God combo in this game, everything is situational in your subs. /whm/blu/dnc hell ive seen a red mage /war duo tank with stoneskin phalanx blink. You all walk around and brag about being the games most versitile job but I don't see any of you trying to expand the horizons of your job.

Also to answer your question Glued, blizzard hits more often than thunder without resists because more often than not you fight againsed wind elemental monsters as opposed to water element.

Basically what I'm trying to say to the rest of you red mages, maybe he's right maybe he's wrong but then... how do you know you havn't even tried it now have you? I was againsed manaburning with a pup, figured a pup has no place in a manaburn party, and he fit in fairly well. To be honest the majority of players who strut around as their level 75 rdms are some of the laziest party members I ever had.

As for /dnc, don't knock it unless you've tried it, and you havn't, so shut up.