Sword vs Dagger

[Mfume]

which is better to use, and why? EXPLAIN!

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Low level RDM should stick with swords, for better damage. If and when you can use Joyeuse (and have one), you'd be very glad to have sword skills under your belt. With appropriate support job equipped, you can gain access to Vorpal Blade, which is a very strong weapon skill. (Just not available natively to RDM.) Spirits Within is another nifty option to have when dealing with targets resistant to physical damage.

However, Daggers can be very useful as well; weapon skills like Energy Steal and Energy Drain can return MP, and Cyclone is excellent against some enemies which are weak to magic. Evisceration, RDM's quested dagger WS, probably out damage Savage Blade (quested sword WS).

In short, use swords now, but beware you should skill up both sword and dagger in the long run.

[Taskmage]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Lots of discussion on the topic here: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/gen...ger-sword.html

[Icemage]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

The original poster is level 5.

Sword at low levels. Forget melee altogether and go with Clubs (specifically wands) somewhere around level 32 for the INT/MND boosts. And forget about wands in favor of Elemental Staves at level 51.


Icemage

[Patchinko]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Daggers improve a great deal after you get the En- series of spells, especially against mobs that are strong against physical but weak against magic damage like many amorphs and elementals.

Until then, swords are always better.

After getting En- spells, it depends on what type of mob you are fighting.

[Glued]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

The original poster is level 5.

Sword at low levels. Forget melee altogether and go with Clubs (specifically wands) somewhere around level 32 for the INT/MND boosts. And forget about wands in favor of Elemental Staves at level 51.


Icemage

Im going to have to disagree with you on this, i myself prefered to melee until thoughts like this cast the rdm into the back line, we are a combat casting mage which is why we ve access to B skills in both sword and dagger.

Now i am not trying to knock you here for your style of play or any thing, this is just how i feel about comments such as this.

As for the topic at hand sword vs dagger has long been debated,

for levels 1-20 i would typically recomend us in sword here the daggers for this level range just dont stack up in DoT whcih is what our job is all about.

post 20 begin using daggers look for ones with low delay over higher damage the point for us is to not get the big numbers like the other melee.


20-71

in these levels i would be using dagger only subbing in sword to keep it capped. by using dagger it gives us some pretty tasty abilities in the drian line of weaponskills for sucking MP from a mob and giving it to ourselves, also as i said before we do not put up big numbers stick to the least delay daggers and with the appropriate enspell you can put up a lot of little numbers really fast which really add up. typically to as much as a normal melee would do minus his/her weaponskills

at level 51 you gain access to elemental staves and for 10 levels or so you may find it hard to melee do to our lacking staff skill and the burden of you duties, however at level 60 and with at least your AF hat and Coat you should be able to drop the staves and pick up the dagger again, be sure to use proper equipment as always enfeebling comes first other things come second. Also around this level youll realise youve been duped by the masses of the partying world and realise you dont need to haste everybody or refresh everybody, i wont ruin the suprise for you but by 60 youll know who to refresh haste and who not to.

at lvl 71 things change with the addition of the final weaponskills
again i lean towards the dagger side of things we are not a big number job by anymeans cure nukes and melee we are DoT, however sword is nice to have levelled and the joy toy is great i recommend subbing ninja and using joytoy of hand.

So afer that long description i personally beleive that dagger fits into our style a bit better than a sword, en-spells work better on daggers and many daggers have great enfeebling traits with them which seems to be our job, keep both leveled and use your own discretion, hope this helps

oh and i forgot to mention try using a /dnc this subjob will give us a permenant accuacy bonus and subtle blow so you wont be a tp builder to the mob, as well as a nice line of tp cures and aspir/drain samba for more effective DoT without wasting your own MP

[Icemage]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Im going to have to disagree with you on this, i myself prefered to melee until thoughts like this cast the rdm into the back line, we are a combat casting mage which is why we ve access to B skills in both sword and dagger.

Now i am not trying to knock you here for your style of play or any thing, this is just how i feel about comments such as this.

When you can show me a "melee RDM" who can anchor a party and achieve XP chain #100+, then I'll change my mind about which role is a superior approach to partying on RDM.

oh and i forgot to mention try using a /dnc this subjob will give us a permenant accuacy bonus and subtle blow so you wont be a tp builder to the mob, as well as a nice line of tp cures and aspir/drain samba for more effective DoT without wasting your own MP

Sorry, but Subtle Blow I hardly qualifies as "not being a TP builder". I suppose it's superior to not having it at all, but 5% decrease in TP given to monsters isn't exactly a good reason to use a specific subjob.

For solo exploits, naturally using weapons is smart (usually), but the truth is that if you're soloing before level 74 (perhaps for Utsusemi: Ni with a Ninja subjob), your time is probably better spent gaining experience points and increasing your overall power level instead of trying to make do by trying to solo stuff at a disadvantage.


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

at level 51 you gain access to elemental staves and for 10 levels or so you may find it hard to melee do to our lacking staff skill and the burden of you duties, however at level 60 and with at least your AF hat and Coat you should be able to drop the staves and pick up the dagger again

Are you insane? I can barely claim to reliably land Silence on Imps at Lv.75 with 4 Enfeebling Merits, Spider Torque, and NQ Wind Staff. At Lv.60, resist still happens even with Artifact gears and Staves; I'd hate to see how a RDM performs while willingly gimping himself by not using the Elemental Staves.

The "Coat" isn't enough to reliably stick enfeebs at Lv.60. The "hat" is great, but RDM's native Elemental skill is only C+.

be sure to use proper equipment as always enfeebling comes first other things come second.

As a general rule Elemental Staves are the "proper equipment", and you'd better be casting spells using them.

Also around this level youll realise youve been duped by the masses of the partying world and realise you dont need to haste everybody or refresh everybody, i wont ruin the suprise for you but by 60 youll know who to refresh haste and who not to.

It's not a matter of have to or don't have to; it's a matter of having enough MP to or not. I couldn't find the MP to do that at Lv.60, so I prioritized.

At Lv.75 with additional refresh (e.g. Ballad), I've hasted/refreshed an entire merit party full time. Not every party, but some you can--and thus should--while some you just have to reserve a greater buffer for cures. *shrug*

[Glued]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

well to be honest with the exception of fast cast + the hat igenerally in my opinion less important then the tabard which gives enfeebling skill + 15 which is much more important to landing enfeebs on the mob then elemental skill i honestly have stopped casting nukes in a party unless i need to recap my elemental skill after a level.

again i would agree that staves are a major priority with landing spells and i do use them in situations where silence wont land, but for me i get my main enfeebs of no problem with out them and in 2 more levels when i get my enfeebling torque i will have a +25 enfeebling skill, also worth poitning out how long does it take you to cast your main enfeebs (dia(bio),slow,paralyze,blind, and gravity) whis generally takes me the first 30 seconds of the fight as it should most red mages, refresh and haste cycles can be done from the front lines.

And with you hitting the mob at the front line /dnc or not yes you will build TP to the mob at a mere 5% less than you would normally, however if you /dnc like i recomend you will also save plenty of MP by using the TP cure provided by the subjob.

As much as it is "Better" for a red mage to sit on the back line pre wotg i would agree but since this dancr job and the addition of TP curing,healing MP conservation can equal or excede that of stealing a few moments to heal.

Im notsaying all rdm's are capable of this or they "should" do it all im doing is trying to provide advise on what can be done to someone who asked a question. I have been doing rd/dnc for about a week now and i feel that it more completes my role as a RDM in the broder scale of things, the TP cures, erase (healing samba) drain and aspir samba are incredibly valuable to the speed at which a rdm can play since he is not reliant on MP as much as before.

Also to be noted that if you ever do become reliant on MP you can just use WS to drain the mob of its MP, provided the mob has MP, if not go sit down and rest and start the whole process over.

For to long weve been pushed to the back line because of our reliance on MP, well SE said theyd bring RDM back to the frontline and i feel this is it, a complete new way to help the party that does not rely on MP.

[Icemage]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

well to be honest with the exception of fast cast + the hat igenerally in my opinion less important then the tabard which gives enfeebling skill + 15 which is much more important to landing enfeebs on the mob then elemental skill i honestly have stopped casting nukes in a party unless i need to recap my elemental skill after a level.

again i would agree that staves are a major priority with landing spells and i do use them in situations where silence wont land, but for me i get my main enfeebs of no problem with out them and in 2 more levels when i get my enfeebling torque i will have a +25 enfeebling skill, also worth poitning out how long does it take you to cast your main enfeebs (dia(bio),slow,paralyze,blind, and gravity) whis generally takes me the first 30 seconds of the fight as it should most red mages, refresh and haste cycles can be done from the front lines.

And with you hitting the mob at the front line /dnc or not yes you will build TP to the mob at a mere 5% less than you would normally, however if you /dnc like i recomend you will also save plenty of MP by using the TP cure provided by the subjob.

As much as it is "Better" for a red mage to sit on the back line pre wotg i would agree but since this dancr job and the addition of TP curing,healing MP conservation can equal or excede that of stealing a few moments to heal.

Im notsaying all rdm's are capable of this or they "should" do it all im doing is trying to provide advise on what can be done to someone who asked a question. I have been doing rd/dnc for about a week now and i feel that it more completes my role as a RDM in the broder scale of things, the TP cures, erase (healing samba) drain and aspir samba are incredibly valuable to the speed at which a rdm can play since he is not reliant on MP as much as before.

Also to be noted that if you ever do become reliant on MP you can just use WS to drain the mob of its MP, provided the mob has MP, if not go sit down and rest and start the whole process over.

For to long weve been pushed to the back line because of our reliance on MP, well SE said theyd bring RDM back to the frontline and i feel this is it, a complete new way to help the party that does not rely on MP.

I get the impression that you have no idea what you're talking about. You agree with the concept of using elemental staves, yet brush over the very significant issue that you lose all your TP when you switch weapons, thus making using elemental staves incompatible with /DNC.

You can't use those TP cures without TP, and you can't cast your enfeebles effectively without elemental staves. So either one suffers, or the other suffers, but you can't have your cake and eat it too, since RDM has no intrinsic Staff skill to build TP with even were you to just use a single commonly used staff like an Ice Staff.

It sounds to me like you set out from the beginning with the mindset of just refusing to be a backline mage no matter how less effective it makes you and are coming up with a bunch of (flawed) rationalizations to make yourself feel better about your decision. On the face of it, that's fine as long as that's all you're doing, but you're now here in this thread attempting to mislead other players into thinking that "your way" is somehow a fresh and better new way to playing Red Mage - when it clearly is not.


Icemage

[Patchinko]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

I can barely claim to reliably land Silence on Imps at Lv.75 with 4 Enfeebling Merits, Spider Torque, and NQ Wind Staff.

Really or are you exaggerating?

I'm only level 70, no Torque of any sort, no Enfeebling Merits, no +Enfeebling gear other than AF, and the NQ Wind Staff and I land Silence on Imps very reliably.

I realize it's a tangent not particularly relevant to the conversation at hand, but your statement is still surprising to me given my experiences recently.

Regardless, being able to land Silence reliably on Imps has proven to be a major boon to levelling against them, and equipment swapping to use a Wind Staff is a key component in my arsenal to get it to land.

Actually, all of the elemental staves are key components in my casting, and since I am constantly switching between them, melee in a party is not practical.

[Sabaron]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Really or are you exaggerating?

I'm only level 70, no Torque of any sort, no Enfeebling Merits, no +Enfeebling gear other than AF, and the NQ Wind Staff and I land Silence on Imps very reliably.

I realize it's a tangent not particularly relevant to the conversation at hand, but your statement is still surprising to me given my experiences recently.

Regardless, being able to land Silence reliably on Imps has proven to be a major boon to levelling against them, and equipment swapping to use a Wind Staff is a key component in my arsenal to get it to land.

Actually, all of the elemental staves are key components in my casting, and since I am constantly switching between them, melee in a party is not practical.

I'm sure II isn't remembering the Imps at 75, probably the Imps at 69-70. At 75 I have very good Silence Accuracy--above 50%. I usually land the first one, but if it doesn't go, I toss another one and he's done.

Auto-swap in Wind Staff, Tabard, Wise, and +MND jewelry on macro.

[Icemage]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Imps aside, try a Mamool Ja Blusterer sometime. Absurdly difficult to Silence. Torque, Tabard, Wind Staff, 8 levels of enfeebling merits and a stack of +MND, 2 levels of Wind Accuracy, and I still miss about half of my Silences on them. I can only imagine how horrible my hit rate would be without the staff.


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

Really or are you exaggerating?

I'm only level 70, no Torque of any sort, no Enfeebling Merits, no +Enfeebling gear other than AF, and the NQ Wind Staff and I land Silence on Imps very reliably.

At Lv.70, I found Imps to resist my Silence more than half of the time. Even when it landed, it tended to be for very short period.

It was around Lv.72 or 73 or so when I started to land Silence more than resisted. (When using Goblin Mushpot.) Still, the duration were short. Once I hit Lv.75 and with merits, Silence on Imps did became a lot easier. However, resists do happen quite frequently.

I'm very surprise you were able to do well with just Artifact armor and Wind Staff. Then again, I may have been emotionally scarred by all those nasty Imps, and that distorted my memory of how bad things were. >_>;

[Glued]

Re: Sword vs Dagger

well to say i dont know what im talking about is an insult, and i dont much appreciate it. however if you read my post i say i use elemental staves in certain situations, and by no means did i say a red mage should melee all the time, and by know means am i trying to mislead people from doing what the community feels is right.

do i feel i am a rdm who refuses to play backline absolutley not i will back line i do backline, however with /dnc we gain a whole new line of cures and healing abilities which dont require us to use mp, which makes us more useful to the party in the long run. refresh and haste can be cast from the front line and instead of wasting mp curing the party you can burn tp instead.

as with all sub's this is a completley situational sub and as beneficial as subbing whm unless you are not a taru and rely on the mp boost from a /mage job.

as for the use of elemental staves in spells i have the majority of staves at HQ quality if i need to i use them, but again if you read my post you note i cast all my enfeebles in the first 30-5 seconds of the fight, at which point i would normally begin the refresh haste cycle, i do not require the staves to land the high accuracy enfeebles like slow paralyze, and my high native mind ensures my gravity sticks nearly everytime without a staff so these can be recasted at antime.

the arguemnt im trying to make here is solely that /dnc allows you the option of assisting your party in a different way (not a better or worse way) than /whm or /blm, and as always im not detering away from our regular duties, but however to preform this job you must have an understanding in several key areas, firstly you need to learn how to cast a spell as your hiting the monster it is invaluable to tp gain, secondly what a skill chain is and where you fit in, a rdm meleeing in a party should always use dagger o we can open skill chains for the heavier hitting DD to land on and we can then burst said chain, by doing this we have just assisted the party in more DoT.

Also we can assist the party in hate control, now ive only tested this breifly and if proper stats are on your rdm it is possible for you to become a secondary voke, or a thf's sata partner, stoneskin gives us a breif amount of time taking no damage, enough time for say a ninja to get his shadows up again.

In addition to all this you have a line of cures at your disposal that do not require mp and generally cure for more than its magical counterpart. drain samba and aspir samba will assist the party in keeping health higher and allow for you the dark the blu and any other frontline mage job to regain MP per hit.

Am i saying this job is a great dd no am i saying its a good dd no, am i saying rdm should all scrap mage subs for dd no, infact i am still working with this new combo peicing together a write up soi can tell all rdm's my findings on it and possibly introduce them to a new side to the game, we dont have to be a backline job if you know how to play the job properly, however i understand not all people arerich like me in the game and cant afford the high end stuff i speak of, in which case you should decide if this is worth it or not for you, if you cant land enfeebles on a mob 4-5 levels higher than you without the aid of staves perhaps you need to do something about that equipment or skill wise before trying this otherwise you will be embarassed by the mobs resistance.

and just for you incase you cant understand by bogled thoughts

rdm party role
enfeeb>>> refresh(not all need it) >>>haste(not all need it)>>>> rest>>>> restart

my personal style
enfeeb>>> attack mob>>> refresh>>>haste>>> keep party alive with TP cures saving MP