Pre-50 RDM Gear-Swapping Poll

[Chveya]

Re: Pre-50 RDM Gear-Swapping Poll

Or maybe it doesn't matter much. RDM have many roles in a PT and debuffing is only one of them. A minor reduction in effectiveness to something that is only a minor part of their job is not a big deal. RDM don't get PT invites for the debuffs, I can tell you that much.

We are talking pre-staves, here. What do RDMs get invites for, then? If you are referring to RDM being invited for Refresh and/or Haste...there are 31 partying levels before Refresh and 38 before Haste. That is a significant amount of time where debuffing is a major part of a RDM's responsibility. The only other responsibility that could potentially edge out debuffing would be main healing. And any good RDM should be able to debuff and main heal without major problems. I'm sorry, but if a RDM in my exp party (even post-staves) told me that debuffing was only a minor part of their job, I'd wonder what they were smoking. The job has an A+ Enfeebling Magic rating for some reason, I'd hope.

The playerbase at large might want to marginalize RDMs into being solely Refresh and Haste monkeys, but that doesn't mean that's a realistic take on the job at all levels. And that doesn't mean I have to go along with it, either.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Pre-50 RDM Gear-Swapping Poll

Elitist: "Get the best gears and macro everything or GTFO!"
Reasonable: "Make the best use out of cheap and easy to obtain gears by macro'ing INT/MND/hMP as needed."
Lazy: "Meh. I can't be bothered."

Some people are mistakingly lumping Reasonable with Elistist. 30 slots are enough for macro swapping a few choice slots, and it's actually quite fun trying to figure out how make one's Red Mage the best it can be in a given budget and macro space.

The game is more fun for everyone when we are not (inadvertently) promoting the Lazy, IMO.

[Esoa]

Re: Pre-50 RDM Gear-Swapping Poll

We are talking pre-staves, here. What do RDMs get invites for, then? If you are referring to RDM being invited for Refresh and/or Haste...there are 31 partying levels before Refresh and 38 before Haste. That is a significant amount of time where debuffing is a major part of a RDM's responsibility. The only other responsibility that could potentially edge out debuffing would be main healing. And any good RDM should be able to debuff and main heal without major problems. I'm sorry, but if a RDM in my exp party (even post-staves) told me that debuffing was only a minor part of their job, I'd wonder what they were smoking. The job has an A+ Enfeebling Magic rating for some reason, I'd hope.

The playerbase at large might want to marginalize RDMs into being solely Refresh and Haste monkeys, but that doesn't mean that's a realistic take on the job at all levels. And that doesn't mean I have to go along with it, either.

They get invited to heal.

Lets be honest here. Paralyze and slow are pointless if you're doing just fine healing the incoming damage in a PT anyway, because all they do is reduce incoming damage. So the only debuff that matters in a lot (or perhaps most) PT's is dia and later on gravity, which are pretty minimal regardless of what stats you're carrying around.

Our debuffs really aren't worth much unless you are in a HNM LS or something of that nature. The reason most people marginalize us to haste/refresh/healing roles is because those are the things that make a difference. Debuffing doesn't.

That's my opinion from my 75 lvls of RDM xp PTing. I gear swapped at least from 51+ maybe sooner and I honestly don't feel that gear swapping makes much difference to debuffs and even when it does, debuffs aren't that important anyway. I main healed pretty much every PT I was in and I honestly couldn't tell much difference in killing speed or incoming damage those few times I didn't land debuffs.

Gear swapping does make a difference. It just makes a small difference to our least important role while xping. Since this is a thread about pre-50 PTing it's safe to assume 99% of those are xp PT's.
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Elitist: "Get the best gears and macro everything or GTFO!"
Reasonable: "Make the best use out of cheap and easy to obtain gears by macro'ing INT/MND/hMP as needed."
Lazy: "Meh. I can't be bothered."

Some people are mistakingly lumping Reasonable with Elistist. 30 slots are enough for macro swapping a few choice slots, and it's actually quite fun trying to figure out how make one's Red Mage the best it can be in a given budget and macro space.

The game is more fun for everyone when we are not (inadvertently) promoting the Lazy, IMO.

30 slots is pretty limited because you have to take into account you're probably carrying gear for when you hit the next level or two, plus soloing gear, etc. With traveling in this game such a pain in the butt it pays to be prepared. I'd gladly sacrifice some marginal gear swapping at lvl 20 in order to not have to run back to town every time I got a PT.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Pre-50 RDM Gear-Swapping Poll

They get invited to heal.

Lets be honest here. Paralyze and slow are pointless if you're doing just fine healing the incoming damage in a PT anyway, because all they do is reduce incoming damage. So the only debuff that matters in a lot (or perhaps most) PT's is dia and later on gravity, which are pretty minimal regardless of what stats you're carrying around.

As RDM75, PLD70, and NIN41, I'd call that BS. One proc of Paralyze can save anywhere between 30 to 150+ damage to my PLD70; you'd easily make up for the MP and time cost if it just proc once or twice per battle. (Not to mention possibly stopping a -ga spell on those difficult to silence Imps.) And, Slow on the monsters makes them a lot easier to tank on both NIN and PLD.

When it get to merit level and everything dies under 40 seconds, the value of Slow and Paralyze is drastically reduced (especially on Elegy pulls). Until fights become that short, however, they are well worth the MP and time to cast.

Oh, as for "invited to heal" only? Let's not forget Silence; turns a pain-in-the-neck-ga-spamming BLM type monster into a total weakling. Honestly, what's up with people who think RDMs for curing only and people who think RDMs shouldn't main heal at all? We can main cure, enfeeb, refresh, haste--or do it all. Versatility is the RDM's defining trait.

Our debuffs really aren't worth much

You are a disgrace to the Red Mage community. -_-#

[Esoa]

Re: Pre-50 RDM Gear-Swapping Poll

As RDM75, PLD70, and NIN41, I'd call that BS. One proc of Paralyze can save anywhere between 30 to 150+ damage to my PLD70; you'd easily make up for the MP and time cost if it just proc once or twice per battle. (Not to mention possibly stopping a -ga spell on those difficult to silence Imps.) And, Slow on the monsters makes them a lot easier to tank on both NIN and PLD.

When it get to merit level and everything dies under 40 seconds, the value of Slow and Paralyze is drastically reduced (especially on Elegy pulls). Until fights become that short, however, they are well worth the MP and time to cast.

Oh, as for "invited to heal" only? Let's not forget Silence; turns a pain-in-the-neck-ga-spamming BLM type monster into a total weakling. Honestly, what's up with people who think RDMs for curing only and people who think RDMs shouldn't main heal at all? We can main cure, enfeeb, refresh, haste--or do it all. Versatility is the RDM's defining trait.

Yes Paralyze and Slow will save the healer MP, but if the healer doesn't need the MP savings then they are wasted. That was my point.

There aren't many BLM mobs. Silence is great when you fight them but they are by far the exception rather than the rule.

You are a disgrace to the Red Mage community. -_-#

Keep deluding yourself, if that makes you feel more useful. Without refresh and haste and dispel we're unwanted for XP pt's except as a poor-man's WHM. In fact, before we get those spells that's exactly what we are...that should show you how unimportant those buffs really are, let alone gear swapping for them.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Pre-50 RDM Gear-Swapping Poll

Yes Paralyze and Slow will save the healer MP, but if the healer doesn't need the MP savings then they are wasted.

Saving MP is a waste? I don't even know how to respond to that. Are you a Tarutaru with full MP and Convert merit or something?

There aren't many BLM mobs. Silence is great when you fight them but they are by far the exception rather than the rule.

Expanding what I said a little, Silence is also quite useful for PLD and WHM type critters, as well as BLM ones, wouldn't you agree?

Now, I suppose you got to Lv.75 but never in exp/merit parties or in missions/quest fights dealt with:
- Worms
- Antica
- Goblins
- Imps
- Mamool Ja
- Trolls
- Magic Pots

So, you never really needed to use Silence, right? (Except for Magic Pots, I've exp'ed or merited on everything listed.) I've never done Sky or HNM anything, but Silence has been quite useful to me, thank you very much--not nearly as used as Dia II, of course, but certainly more frequently than Gravity.

Well, I'm happy with Red Mage being able to enfeeb. Too bad you don't feel the same.

[Taskmage]

Re: Pre-50 RDM Gear-Swapping Poll

Healing is always the most important thing, because if you party is dead they aren't gaining experience. But if you don't appreciate enfeebles than you don't understand rdm.

The entire point of refresh is to reduce downtime. A healer that "doesn't need mp savings" doesn't need refresh. How many of those could you name before dancer? Paralyze is 6 mp. Six. If para procs even once on a lizard in the dunes that's 30 damage he doesn't get to do. Savings to the white mage (or you): 8 mp on Cure I. When you're fighting mobs that hit for 100+ that's 24 mp saved for your mere 6. With one enfeeble.

Slow reliably stops 4 attacks per minute. Over two minutes on high level mobs that's two Cure IVs that never have to get cast, which equals 176 mp your healer doesn't have to spend. You know how much mp Refresh gives? 150. Think it'd be better to give my healer 176 mp for 15 of mine or 150 for 40 of mine? If you're not in a speedkill party and you're not casting slow you might as well not be refreshing the whm.

You are a disgrace to the Red Mage community. -_-#

Quoted for truth. Just because other people don't understand your job's strengths is no excuse for you not to.

[Nuriko]

Re: Pre-50 RDM Gear-Swapping Poll

I'm more WHM than RDM, and I've certainly never thought of enfeebles as not worth using ... well, unless resists are just painful, of course. But wasn't this about pre-staff gear swapping before?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Pre-50 RDM Gear-Swapping Poll

As Icemage said, extra MND and INT helps with resist rate. Sounds like a pretty good reason to encourage lower level RDMs to macro swap gears.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Pre-50 RDM Gear-Swapping Poll

Our debuffs really aren't worth much unless you are in a HNM LS or something of that nature.

....debuffs aren't that important anyway.

I've lvl'd rdm 4 times and I'm working on my 5th. (I like to see how the dynamics of different races affect it and also I just happen to love rdm!) I just don't know what to say to this....really....I am speechless....WOW....

[nanatsu]

Re: Pre-50 RDM Gear-Swapping Poll

I wouldn't go so far as to say that enfeebles are useless. Even though I put aside gear swapping on my second run at RDM, I made sure to set up my gear to maximize the use of what I decided was most important. MND based enfeebles. I made sure my slow, silence, and paralyze landed and landed well. And I most certainly did notice a difference in the flow of the fight when they did land. Anyone who's been in a party with a NIN that won't enfeeble or who has watched a mob get paralyzed several times in a row can attest to that.

[Evion]

Re: Pre-50 RDM Gear-Swapping Poll

Wow! Thanks for all they posts everyone. I didn't put in my 2 gil in the O.P. so, here it goes. I've gone 1-50 with NO gear swapping. I've always been very good at not getting resisted on my enfeebles and have been very good at keeping my MP bar up. I've never had anyone suggest that I gear-swap in any PT I've had so far and had no idea it was needed until lv 51. Although 48%+ voted that it was a bit elitist and perhaps not REALLY needed pre 50, I see that most posts here are to the contrary. Perhaps, everyone was scared to argue with Ifrit . Anyway, thanks again!

Oh yeah, one more thing: What's the point of gear-swapping if you can only afford shit gear anyway? What are you going to do, swap shit for shit? LOFL...
(Up until recently) I don't care how affordable you think some gear are, I couldn't afford them. One set of equipment is as good as it gets for some...and that's fine with me. (pre 50 anyway)

[Callisto]

Re: Pre-50 RDM Gear-Swapping Poll

I have separate TP/WS builds for my 20 DRG, who can guess what I voted? At any rate, there's nothing wrong with being above average at any level, and especially at lower levels you can get decent swap pieces for very cheap.

Even at 75 you can gear an effective RDM w/ swaps for rather cheap, aside from a few pricey essentials. As Ifrit stated you may not be doing anything but healing some times, but there's no reason to not be able to do better at any of RDM's possible duties.

Oh yeah, one more thing: What's the point of gear-swapping if you can only afford shit gear anyway? What are you going to do, swap shit for shit? LOFL...
(Up until recently) I don't care how affordable you think some gear are, I couldn't afford them. One set of equipment is as good as it gets for some...and that's fine with me. (pre 50 anyway)

Anyone who isn't new to these forums knows you'd rather XP than spend an hour farming for things that are essential to not sucking at your jobs(umm...Dispel?). These polls are lame, quit trying to lash back at those that called you out for being a noob by trying to paint them as elitists.

[Icemage]

Re: Pre-50 RDM Gear-Swapping Poll

Oh yeah, one more thing: What's the point of gear-swapping if you can only afford shit gear anyway? What are you going to do, swap shit for shit? LOFL...

(Up until recently) I don't care how affordable you think some gear are, I couldn't afford them. One set of equipment is as good as it gets for some...and that's fine with me. (pre 50 anyway)

There is a LOT of inexpensive but good gear out there if you peruse the Wiki and the AH. There's also a lot of questable things. Electrum Rings are inexpensive and a huge plus for Convert even if you can't afford Astrals or lay hands on things like a Serket Ring. Fortune Eggs are acquirable from the typical yearly Easter event. NQ Devotee's Mitts are cheap too, and very effective - but if you nuke wearing them, you should be slapped - hard.

Seriously, this idea that every piece of good gear costs six figures in gil needs to go away. I've been playing since the beta, and to this day, my RDM 75 uses a number of pieces of gear that cost me hardly anything, because they're just more effective for my playstyle.

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As for the Tarutaru RDM not caring about MP efficiency, that's totally BS. I'm a level 75 Tarutaru RDM with a ~1100+MP Convert ratio and 4 levels of Convert merits, and I still watch my MP expenditures like a hawk because it's very easy to run out of MP when the stuffing hits the fan if you're spending MP unwisely.


Icemage

[Callisto]

Re: Pre-50 RDM Gear-Swapping Poll

As for the Tarutaru RDM not caring about MP efficiency, that's totally BS. I'm a level 75 Tarutaru RDM with a ~1100+MP Convert ratio and 4 levels of Convert merits, and I still watch my MP expenditures like a hawk because it's very easy to run out of MP when the stuffing hits the fan if you're spending MP unwisely.

I hate you Tarus lol...I've started carrying more MP gear for vert macros now that I got GB8 done, and I've gotten to 1180hp/780mp. Although, when I do Nyzul runs and use a mana boost for the last 15 I sit right around 1200/1200, feels good.