rdm/nin

[Khidir]

Re: rdm/nin

when you use a elemental nuke its a check of your INT vs the mobs INT the decreased int results in greater damage

with mnd and white debuffs are a check of your MND vs a mobs MND score depending on the difference either or can resist or if the difference is huge take full effect

when i referred to the other pt members i also meant the decreased str and dex down from the elemental dots which would make the difference in checks of str and dex vs the mob greater resulting in heavier damge and making a stronger sc.

no you cant stick all the effects of the DoTs but you can adjust them to improve the magical or the physical abilities of the party. ninjutsu just deals with the magical imo which isnt bad but the potential is greater with blm

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm/nin

when you use a elemental nuke its a check of your INT vs the mobs INT the decreased int results in greater damage

Right, but typically (before elemental staves), reducing resist would help the average damage a lot more a few more INT. (The lightest resist is 1/2; that's 50% of damage from one nuke gone.)

with mnd and white debuffs are a check of your MND vs a mobs MND score depending on the difference either or can resist or if the difference is huge take full effect

To my knowledge, with MND based debuffs, MND is mostly for potency like how much slower and how much more often paralyze would proc. I don't think it does much for resist rate; it's magic accuracy which counts when talking about resists (or partial resists, which is duration).

Whether elemental enfeebs is better than -ton Ninjutsu or not is ultimately situational; if Slow is resisted 20% of the time, it'd be great to have both Raiton: Ichi and Shock. But, if I can only pick one, I'd take Raiton. However, if it's resisted only 5% of the time, then I'd take Shock.

[Icemage]

Re: rdm/nin

Right, but typically (before elemental staves), reducing resist would help the average damage a lot more a few more INT. (The lightest resist is 1/2; that's 50% of damage from one nuke gone.)

This is true, but the biggest factor in resistances has to do with level differences moreso than just elemental resistance. I'm sure that Ninjutsu probably do help quite a bit, but while this makes more sense in the context of BLM/NIN, where your damage output is directly impacted by resistances due to limited amounts of MP, the same can not be said for RDM, who are generally tossing out very inexpensive enfeebles.

To my knowledge, with MND based debuffs, MND is mostly for potency like how much slower and how much more often paralyze would proc. I don't think it does much for resist rate; it's magic accuracy which counts when talking about resists (or partial resists, which is duration).

MND affects resistance rates for all white magic enfeebles (Dia, Silence, Slow, Paralyze, Slow II, Paralyze II) as part of a caster vs. target stat comparison. There's a point of diminishing returns for how much MND will help you on resistance rates, though; somewhere in the target+20MND level is a good rule of thumb in my experience.

Slow, Slow II, Paralyze, and Paralyze II all draw greater potency from the caster having more MND. Dia I/II/III don't get much of anything from more MND aside from longer average stick times, and maybe a point or two of extra damage on the initial hit (negligible)

Whether elemental enfeebs is better than -ton Ninjutsu or not is ultimately situational; if Slow is resisted 20% of the time, it'd be great to have both Raiton: Ichi and Shock. But, if I can only pick one, I'd take Raiton. However, if it's resisted only 5% of the time, then I'd take Shock.

I'd always prefer Shock over Raiton for casting Slow. As a RDM with A rank Enfeebling Magic, if you can't stick Slow with Shock on, then you just try again. Once you land it, Shock will do much more for the spell potency.

Unlike BLMs, it's not a big deal for an RDM to try again at landing an enfeeble. Paralyze recast timer is very low, and Slow is only marginally longer. The MP cost for both is pretty small. Extra accuracy just isn't that big a deal on enfeebles, aside from Silence and Sleep - you can't help Sleep since it's Dark magic, and you definitely don't want to try casting a 4 second ninjutsu for Doton: Ichi in preparing to Silence that spellcaster that's aiming Firaga III on your party...


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm/nin

This is true, but the biggest factor in resistances has to do with level differences moreso than just elemental resistance. I'm sure that Ninjutsu probably do help quite a bit, but while this makes more sense in the context of BLM/NIN, where your damage output is directly impacted by resistances due to limited amounts of MP, the same can not be said for RDM, who are generally tossing out very inexpensive enfeebles.

The cost/benefit is more dramatic for BLM, but without people actually using a back line RDM/NIN in the manner described and report its efficacy, I don't think I can convince myself to rule out the back line RDM/NIN concept entirely.

MND affects resistance rates for all white magic enfeebles (Dia, Silence, Slow, Paralyze, Slow II, Paralyze II) as part of a caster vs. target stat comparison. There's a point of diminishing returns for how much MND will help you on resistance rates, though; somewhere in the target+20MND level is a good rule of thumb in my experience.

I'd love to see the data on how much effect MND has on accuracy. Do you happen to have a link somewhere? I googled for a bit, but couldn't find anything authoritative.

Dia I/II/III don't get much of anything from more MND aside from longer average stick times, and maybe a point or two of extra damage on the initial hit (negligible)

Never really noticed Dia resisted, but I don't keep a stop watch for partial resists...

I'd always prefer Shock over Raiton for casting Slow. As a RDM with A rank Enfeebling Magic, if you can't stick Slow with Shock on, then you just try again. Once you land it, Shock will do much more for the spell potency.

Hmm. Not sure if I can subscribe to this for all situations; recast for Slow is 20 seconds, which is not all that short in my book. From what I've seen with BLM/NIN, Raiton should have a dramatic effect on magic accuracy, while it's really hard to notice the effect of Shock on Slow for exp monsters; I know I can't tease it out from eyeing it, and mostly cast Shock from faith alone.

Besides, if a RDM is having trouble landing Slow consistently on a element neutral monster, Shock would be even harder.

Unlike BLMs, it's not a big deal for an RDM to try again at landing an enfeeble. Paralyze recast timer is very low, and Slow is only marginally longer. The MP cost for both is pretty small.

I'd agree that MP cost isn't the primary concern; the cost in time and attention is more worrisome for Paralyze or Slow. Don't agree Slow recast time is negligible, though.

The main concept of a RDM/NIN is to have enough magic accuracy to enable a "Cast and Forget" style of play for one or two enfeeb of choice; just toss out those spells in the right order, and one can free the mind to pay attention to other pressing matters like Curing, Regen, sleeping links/ads/Linkshell chats/the-Taru-who-forgot-I'm-man-cat-and-is-using-"leg humping"-emotes/etc...

[Icemage]

Re: rdm/nin

I'd love to see the data on how much effect MND has on accuracy. Do you happen to have a link somewhere? I googled for a bit, but couldn't find anything authoritative.

Don't have a link handy, but I do have a combined 125 levels of WHM and 75 levels of RDM under my belt as experience. It's NOT hard to stack/unstack MND, and I've done so on a number of occasions to find a "sweet spot", and it always falls somewhere in the MND+20-25 range (a bit higher than I posted since my character is Tarutaru).

Never really noticed Dia resisted, but I don't keep a stop watch for partial resists...

It does get partial resisted fairly often, particularly for WHMs. You notice this a lot if you end up soloing worms in Shakrami and Korroloka in the early levels like I did on WHM.

Hmm. Not sure if I can subscribe to this for all situations; recast for Slow is 20 seconds, which is not all that short in my book. From what I've seen with BLM/NIN, Raiton should have a dramatic effect on magic accuracy, while it's really hard to notice the effect of Shock on Slow for exp monsters; I know I can't tease it out from eyeing it, and mostly cast Shock from faith alone.

Casting Shock to improve your chance to land Slow and Paralyze is almost always an exercise in futility IMO. It's not important enough to burn an extra 25MP and precious seconds of the start of a battle, and the only person that benefits is the RDM.

It's sometimes handy on lightning-weak enemies with no RDM and a WHM willing to cast enfeebles (say, BLM WHM BRD back line), but other than that... no. RDMs casting Shock from a /BLM sub to improve their Slow/Paralyze accuracy need to be shot. Buy some real MND/enfeebling gear, and spend the excess MP you would have spent on Shock on some Hastes for your melees instead. If you're going to drop an enfeeble, make it at least be Choke (esp. if you have a monk in the party).

Besides, if a RDM is having trouble landing Slow consistently on a element neutral monster, Shock would be even harder.

Not always. Shock is lightning based, and all aquans are weak to lightning - namely crabs and pugils. Again though, RDMs casting Shock are wasting MP and time IMO. It's just not that useful.

I'd agree that MP cost isn't the primary concern; the cost in time and attention is more worrisome for Paralyze or Slow. Don't agree Slow recast time is negligible, though.

Sure it is if you do things right. In a standard XP party setup, you toss Slow (which has a very fast casting time and pretty good casting range) as the monster is coming in. Whether it sticks or fails, you roll immediately into Paralyze and Dia, and then pick up the spare on Slow again if it bounced on the first try. This is a much, much better use of time than wasting the first 4 seconds of a fight casting Raiton : Ichi.

If a second cast of Slow doesn't stick, it's already far too late into the fight for it to matter in 95% of cases, so an additional 18 or seconds of recast (factoring in Fast Cast traits) is no longer an issue because it's a moot point.

The main concept of a RDM/NIN is to have enough magic accuracy to enable a "Cast and Forget" style of play for one or two enfeeb of choice; just toss out those spells in the right order, and one can free the mind to pay attention to other pressing matters like Curing, Regen, sleeping links/ads/Linkshell chats/the-Taru-who-forgot-I'm-man-cat-and-is-using-"leg humping"-emotes/etc...

You make it sound like casting ninjutsu will make every spell stick. It doesn't. All it does is improve your odds, the same way a Bard's Threnody does.

Good time management in battle obviates the need of a 4 second crutch to spell accuracy, which is why I'm so down on RDM/NIN at low levels.


Icemage

[Khidir]

Re: rdm/nin

http://www.qcdn.org/ffxi/showthread.php?t=48115

you'd have to create a quick acct there to read it I think but the chart

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm/nin

http://www.qcdn.org/ffxi/showthread.php?t=48115

you'd have to create a quick acct there to read it I think but the chart

That graph shows potency, not accuracy. I don't think anyone here doubted that MND has effect on potency of Slow.

(I did say MND didn't have much effect on accuracy, but I think I may be wrong now, given what Icemage wrote.)

[Icemage]

Re: rdm/nin

That graph shows potency, not accuracy. I don't think anyone here doubted that MND has effect on potency of Slow.
(I did say MND didn't have much effect on accuracy, but I think I may be wrong now, given what Icemage wrote.)

I do remember one non-empircal test I did once with a RDM in my LS once. We'd claimed and were beating up on Behemoth (level 80 NM) and were taking turns trying to cast Paralyze on it. I took off all my gears and had almost no luck at landing the spell; even when it landed, it would wear quickly. As I stacked more Enfeebling gear, my success rate improved. Adding MND gear also helped, but only to an extent; pushing my MND to +52 or so didn't do more than push me up from "almost never" to "occasional" sticks, but it was still a noticeable improvement over having no gear equipped at all.

We really didn't have that much time to play around with it, as Behemoth is laughably easy to kill, but it's an interesting data point nonetheless.


Icemage