rdm/nin

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: rdm/nin

You'll give people the wrong impression if you party as RDM/NIN. Most people will look at a DD job in a party using some whacky sub, and they'll assume that it's some clueless exp leech. If they see a RDM in a party using some whacky sub, they'll assume you're rubbing it in their faces that you can use whatever non-optimal subjob and still get invites because of Refresh.

[Acicia]

Re: rdm/nin

When you get to higher levels (70-75) you will very very rarely get invited to a party with any other sub than /whm. /blm is great for the levels before that. It gives you a chance to level your dark magic skill and the opportunity to MB for a million less than the blm but still feel like you're important. /nin is for soloing only. Rdm/nin is the BEST solo job combo ever, period.

[Malevolent]

Re: rdm/nin

I perfer Rdm/Blu...at lvl 30+ that is...due to your sub being half of your main...there are some good Blu spells that give good stat boosts at 15 so i would suggest using /Blu post lvl 30 and the added MP is greater than /whm or /blm.

[Khidir]

Re: rdm/nin

hate to say it but no PLEASE DONT SUB IT (for exp pts)

you get a lower mp score and lesser potential with out the higher mnd points from whm or the higher points from blm

subbing blu is almost as bad mostly no utility it wouldnt give more mp than /whm or /blm because the mp pools base of rdm and blu are identical and stats as well... which arent bad stat wise but it's average you'd get more from /blm and /whm

You're going to hurt your pts overall performance and slow the kills meaning lesser kills per hr and exp.

just because we get invites fast doesnt mean we can dictate what we want to do in an exp pt 'because we have refresh and haste'

tp feeding a mob with two swords or daggers than barely do enough damage to suffice and half resisted enpsells on eruca, imps,etc. isnt so stellar those stand out because of nasty aoes.

I'm sure there are a few at lower lvs that have them as well bomb toss, cursed sphere,etc...

I hate to say it but chances are if you have time to melee then you probrably are missing out on something, using enspells and hasting yourself and stuff AND debuffing, hasting other melees(which will do much more damage worth the tp they feed than yourself), keeping refresh order. That's a normal strain on a rdm it's even worse when you have to main heal.

There's nuking as well which would easily outdo the damage from melee with lesser tp given but as you get into higher lvs you'll nuke less since more healing tends to be needed


Doesnt matter what kind of race you are you're going to burn out fast(out of mp) and it'll slow down the exp.

/nin is great solo and amazing but it doesnt warrant pt play

go lv blu if you want something more offensive you'll get better results dont take this offensively I just feel strongly against it and have to point it out, feel free to try I'm just warning you to not be suprised with the results.


thing about /smn

it's just okay, there are situations when i wish I had the proper sj lved fairly often, it's good for mainhealing pts against colibri and pts that dont deal with status mobs

pt mobs on the top of my head are

crabs
colibri(lesser and greater)


the auto refresh and the slightly higher mp (+20 from traits not including the mp from sj) are about what you get out of it that and aerial armor. It shines most in TAU areas with a brd sanction refresh and if you have one by then vermillion cloak

this starts being somewhat viable around 50+ I'd personally recommend not to use it period but there are some situations for it albeit a few however.


last edit info if you want to read it, http://www.qcdn.org/ffxi/showthread.php?t=49959

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm/nin

hate to say it but no PLEASE DONT SUB IT (for exp pts)

you get a lower mp score and lesser potential with out the higher mnd points from whm or the higher points from blm

Forgot about this earlier, but a back line RDM/NIN is interesting from Lv.30-40 for the reason of the -ton line of Ninjutsu. I believe those can land on exp level targets (the resist down effect, no so much the damage part), and can be used to ensure debuff or nukes have better accuracy. It's MP free, to boot.

It's a matter of weighing the resists vs. potency; is more MND for stronger slow better than landing Slow on first try? Is better Paralyze proc more important than ensuring the BLM in party can land big nukes for full damage to end the fights faster? Those pitiful damages you usually see on skillchains? That's due to resists. Would it be worth the time to cast a -ton if you can make it do full damage all the time? Level 2 SC full damage is 60% of closing WS; that's 120 additional damage off of a 200 closer.

Is any of that worth a smaller MP pool?

Personally, I don't think RDM/NIN is horrible on paper, but nearly never used right in practice. Plus, in random pickup groups, you can't be sure if you can get the cooperation to make good use out of the -ton spells.

Playing the odds, it's just better to show up as RDM/WHM when you've just said "Yes" to a mystery party.

... Of course, once hit Lv.40, Convert makes mage support job almost mandatory in normal parties.

subbing blu is almost as bad mostly no utility it wouldnt give more mp than /whm or /blm because the mp pools base of rdm and blu are identical and stats as well... which arent bad stat wise but it's average you'd get more from /blm and /whm

While I do think /WHM is better usually, /BLU does have potential. Healing Breeze is nearly a Curaga II for less MP than Curaga. Wild Carrot is roughly a Cure III, and again for less MP.

Various combination of spells on BLU can give +MP, +INT, +MND, and Auto-Regen, all of which have can help a RDM.

There's nuking as well which would easily outdo the damage from melee

I covered this earlier, but this is not true at all level ranges; specifically, at lower levels, the combination of melee, en- spells, plus nuking will out do nuking alone. Nuking alone would use up MP too fast to be sustainable, while en- spells works for a long time for very little MP, making it a very efficient way to increase the value of a RDM's melee work.

[Icemage]

Re: rdm/nin

I covered this earlier, but this is not true at all level ranges; specifically, at lower levels, the combination of melee, en- spells, plus nuking will out do nuking alone. Nuking alone would use up MP too fast to be sustainable, while en- spells works for a long time for very little MP, making it a very efficient way to increase the value of a RDM's melee work.

I agree with most of your post except for this part.

XP-worthy targets almost always resist Enspell damage at low levels. At best you'll get maybe 4 extra damage per hit, and often you'll see 0-2 at the level range being discussed (16-30). They're totally not worth casting at low levels.


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm/nin

Odd, I don't remember resists on en- spells being that bad unless I didn't match the monster's weakness. Wish I have screenshots or parses to prove it... It's hard not to doubt my memory if Icemage says it's wrong. ^_^;

At Lv.27 with capped Enhancing Magic (84), an unresisted en-spell without weather/day bonus is 8. En- spells are 12mp each, so, to reach 4.0 dmg/mp, just need to hit the monster 6 times. Everything beyond that is just extra gravy.

[Icemage]

Re: rdm/nin

Odd, I don't remember resists on en- spells being that bad unless I didn't match the monster's weakness. Wish I have screenshots or parses to prove it... It's hard not to doubt my memory if Icemage says it's wrong. ^_^;
At Lv.27 with capped Enhancing Magic (84), an unresisted en-spell without weather/day bonus is 8. En- spells are 12mp each, so, to reach 4.0 dmg/mp, just need to hit the monster 6 times. Everything beyond that is just extra gravy.

Problem is, though, even on elements the monsters are "weak" to, unresisted hits against VT++++ enemies are as rare as hen's teeth from Enspells. My experience with it resulted in almost all hits being for 1/2 damage, and a healthy percentage being 1/4 or less (which would be the 0-2 I was referring to above).

That extends those "mere" 6 unresisted hits to something more like 12... which takes quite a while to do in an XP party.


Icemage

[emeraldpearl]

Re: rdm/nin

so to pretty much break this all down into one simple sentence. RDM/NIN = solo job, RDM/WHM = exp pt job. ^^ fair enough . rdm will be my next 75 after smn

[Icemage]

Re: rdm/nin

RDM/NIN isn't totally horrible for some applications. It's really great on quite a large variety of level capped activities (Promyvions come to mind), and a lot of level 75 things can be solo'd as RDM/NIN.

As a solo subjob, it's pretty lackluster until level 74 when you get access to Utsusemi: Ni for an extra layer of protection.

Also note that unlike other jobs that can substantially benefit from the /NIN dual wielding speed bonus, RDM really don't get much of any benefit at level 70+ due to the presence of the double attack swords (Joyeuse and Justice Sword) - in fact, it actually hurts your damage output to dual wield if you own one but not both of these weapons.

For XP parties, RDM/NIN is just bad, period, at every level. You don't get elemental ninjutsu until level 30/15, and by that level you have access to either Divine Seal from /WHM or Elemental Seal from /BLM, both of which outshine the marginal benefit of ninjutsu.


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm/nin

We already discussed -ton Ninjutsu from RDM/NIN in a past thread. If Taskmage is right, -15 lowers a monster's resistance so much it's like a monster is five levels weaker, and the effect is actually -30 according to Armando.

It is still a huge hassle to cast -ton Ninjutsu spells, but I don't know if you can call that "marginal benefit" when you have trouble landing enfeebs. I wouldn't recommend the combination RDM/NIN to just anyone, but it should be a potent combo to enable better enfeebling rates and better damage from nukes and SCs, and suitable at some level ranges.

I think my feeling toward back line RDM/NIN is this: It's too complicated and too much hassle for me, but I sure wouldn't mind if other people armed with all that info test it and report back.

Asides:
- I was rather unhappy that neighbortaru locked the thread, just when it was getting interesting. -_-#
- Icemage, did you ever get a chance to do the test in Castle Oztroja?

[Khidir]

Re: rdm/nin

sorry man but the effects from the ninjutsu dont last that long and there's also the elemental debuffs from /blm

the DoTs improve the performance of the other 5 in your pt as well pending job of course at 32+ starts with shock mnd down which makes debuffs from para and slow much stronger along with the mp that you dont get from /nin. Up to 3 can be stacked pending nature and with good int builds inflict serious DoT and improve the performance of the wses made by the melee meaning a slight higher SC and wses in general rather than using a ele nuke corresponding to the SC and mbing for a slightly higher result

it's not really complicated in comparison with what rdm has to do in an exp just a bit more than what other jobs have to worry about.

the utility is even more compounded when you have a nin/war maintanking they at lower lvs spam the ele wheel to hold hate

[Icemage]

Re: rdm/nin

We already discussed -ton Ninjutsu from RDM/NIN in a past thread. If Taskmage is right, -15 lowers a monster's resistance so much it's like a monster is five levels weaker, and the effect is actually -30 according to Armando.

It is still a huge hassle to cast -ton Ninjutsu spells, but I don't know if you can call that "marginal benefit" when you have trouble landing enfeebs. I wouldn't recommend the combination RDM/NIN to just anyone, but it should be a potent combo to enable better enfeebling rates and better damage from nukes and SCs, and suitable at some level ranges.

I think my feeling toward back line RDM/NIN is this: It's too complicated and too much hassle for me, but I sure wouldn't mind if other people armed with all that info test it and report back.

I think the overriding consideration is what other party members are going to think of you when you come in as /NIN. Unless you can show them that you're dual-wielding wands and not swords, it's going to overshadow any possible performance improvement you might get from the ninjutsu. I love unusual subjobs more than most (my current passion is WAR/BLU), but I don't even think I'd have the gumption to try this at low levels.

- Icemage, did you ever get a chance to do the test in Castle Oztroja?

Unfortunately not. I was just there a few days ago helping someone with Rank 5, but forgot to stick around and check the ninja types to see what their ninjutsu did to my resistances.


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: rdm/nin

I think the overriding consideration is what other party members are going to think of you when you come in as /NIN. Unless you can show them that you're dual-wielding wands and not swords, it's going to overshadow any possible performance improvement you might get from the ninjutsu. I love unusual subjobs more than most (my current passion is WAR/BLU), but I don't even think I'd have the gumption to try this at low levels.

Well, I met a JP BLM/NIN player in a PUG (pick-up group) who definitively demonstrated what good is a /NIN on a mage job in a standard 6/6 party. RDM/NIN can't be that bad in the hands of a good player like yourself.

sorry man but the effects from the ninjutsu dont last that long

About 15 seconds, according to Armando. Enough time for one SC + MB combo or a couple of nukes at the Lv.30-40 range.

and there's also the elemental debuffs from /blm

the DoTs improve the performance of the other 5 in your pt as well pending job of course at 32+ starts with shock mnd down which makes debuffs from para and slow much stronger along with the mp that you dont get from /nin.

Yes, DoT is nice, and Shock increases the potency of MND based spells, while Burn increases the potency of INT bases spells. However, neither one really affects resist rates, which is what the the Ninjutusu in question are good for.

Also, before the staves, my elemental enfeebs from RDM/BLM were frequently resisted. Hard to say whether the DoT plus status effect at 25MP and 2.5sec a shot with pretty significant resist rate is really that much better than 0 MP and 4 sec a shot for nearly no chance of being resisted (supposedly). Stacking three elemental enfeebs would be 75MP a fight, which is not an insignificant cost.

Up to 3 can be stacked pending nature and with good int builds inflict serious DoT and improve the performance of the wses made by the melee meaning a slight higher SC and wses in general rather than using a ele nuke corresponding to the SC and mbing for a slightly higher result

I think you're underestimating the possibility of SC damages.

The problem is, Skillchains, like all forms of magic, are prone to being resisted, which cuts down its effectiveness sharply. Resists on skillchains can be observed even on EP/DC mobs on elements they're neutral to, which says a lot for the probabilities of an IT resisting. Moreover, the more damaging your WS is, and the higher the tier and level of the skillchain you're closing, the more damage is at stake. That aside, lowering the mob's resistance also helps ensure a full Magic Burst (it's not a common thing, but resists still do happen on MBs! Nothing's uglier than seeing the BLM's MP being wasted, and having the mob still standing when you needed it to be dead to keep the chain going.) Those 4 seconds of casting the Ninjutsu can literally ensure hundreds of points in damage. That's far more than trying to get the most out of your WS's stat modifiers will do.

4 seconds of time (shorter with Fast Cast) for hundreds of points of damage isn't that bad of a trade.

As for helping direct damage spells, I've actually witness it in person. A BLM/NIN in a party I had in Garliage Citadel used the -ton spells to great effect. It just... worked. I was also BLM in that party, and I ended up waiting for his -ton spells to save resists on my own nukes.

it's not really complicated in comparison with what rdm has to do in an exp just a bit more than what other jobs have to worry about.

OK, I'll concede I may have exaggerated a bit. Still, RDM/NIN means more items to carry, and more macros to worry over. The long-ish cast time also means more efforts needed on time management.

the utility is even more compounded when you have a nin/war maintanking they at lower lvs spam the ele wheel to hold hate

Of course this wouldn't work with a NIN using the wheel; yet another reason to bring /WHM when not sure about the party's setup. (Then again, I can't remember the last time I saw a NIN using the wheel in a pick up group, but that's besides the point.)

[Murphie]

Re: rdm/nin

Well, I met a JP BLM/NIN player in a PUG (pick-up group) who definitively demonstrated what good is a /NIN on a mage job in a standard 6/6 party. RDM/NIN can't be that bad in the hands of a good player like yourself.

Of course his point wasn't necessarily how effective the combo was, but rather what potential party mates are going to think of the combination.

An experienced player may be able to make it work depending on the party setup and the mobs targeted. But am I going to take that chance on some random guy? Probably not.