Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

[Cotners]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

I agree, for the most part, with Necro on this. Conserve MP is far too inconsistant to rely on it. But about it being statistics... while that is true, the randomness is taken out because the proc. rate is generated by a computer program.

[Necropolis]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

Well I don't mean to argue that one is always better or worse. And I'd certainly never tell a rdm to sub smn in exp (or any situation I can think of). I'm just saying that given it randomness of conserve MP, it shouldn't be a major decision matter when choosing a sub.

Utility and party mechanics are the main concerns of course. Benifits of both /whm and /blm can be weighed, and a sub choosen. We can't simply say, "well I was going to /whm, but I get conserve mp with /blm, so this way I am more mp effective".

Many rdms I know have extra mp left over before convert is up, so as long as that left over mp is greater than or equal to what you could of saved as /blm, the trait was useless. Not to say the sub is useless, but it should certainly not be used as a major factor in choosing a subjob.

[Amele]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

[QUOTE=IfritnoItazura;711805]In 10 minutes, Refresh full-time gives 600 MP. That means Convert and resting will have to give 2244 MP, for a RDM without Refresh gears. (I don't know about you, but my RDM rarely rested in exp parties unless there's competition for mobs or if people are AFK.)
I don't see that happening without Refresh gears and maybe a BRD or COR, especially, say, for a Galka RDM. ~2000+ Converts can't be that easy to come by, can it? Certainly doesn't happen at Lv.50, when Auto-Refresh from /SMN becomes available.

you've got it right, pretty much. at level 75, it's reasonable to expect almost that much mp, but it can still be a bit of a stretch. - resting a tick or two every couple minutes makes up the rest.

But, really, a main healing RDM can get a good deal MP saving from /WHM on the strength of Curaga I/II alone.

which is another reason that 'real' tanks aren't always the best way to set up a party, ironically.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

you've got it right, pretty much. at level 75, it's reasonable to expect almost that much mp, but it can still be a bit of a stretch. - resting a tick or two every couple minutes makes up the rest.

I don't think it's reasonable at all; a 2000+ MP Convert also requires 2000+ HP.

For resting the first tick is 30 seconds, right? (Then, it'd be 10sec/tick; 2nd ticks would be at 40 seconds.) Clear Mind III gives tick#1 only 21 MP. Dark Staff pushes that up to 31MP. Wizard Cookies adds another hMP+7, so it's 38. More hMP gear can push it past 40. BUT, if you're taking time to rest, you can't be using time to cast.

Unless you're spamming the MP costly Tier III nukes only, it would seem very difficult have both enough MP and enough time burn through them for Conserve MP to beat out Auto-Refresh.

* * *

If, however, there's an additional Refresher, it'd bring MP recovery to 1600 in the Convert window, and that means "only" need 1644 MP from Convert and other sources.

That looks more doable. Still, that's going to heck of a busy RDM, who must have excellent MP Refresh gears on top of Refresh + Ballad x2.

* * *

which is another reason that 'real' tanks aren't always the best way to set up a party, ironically.

RDM is good at difficult critters less so, but not a great fit for cure dumping on a frontline all taking hits all the time from an uncontrolled VT mob. Those /NIN TP spam parties rely on monsters that can't kill parties members before they die. Interestingly enough, WHM is still the better healer--with merits and gears, WHM can toss out cures faster, and have better Regens and more potent Curagas, to boot. i.e. Using less MP to do a better job of keeping the frontline alive.

[Armando]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

For resting the first tick is 30 seconds, right?

98% sure it's 20 secs, by the way.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

98% sure it's 20 secs, by the way.

lol. Someone go test it, please, before the question drives me crazy. >_<;

[Armando]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

Just did, now I'm 100% sure.

[nazlfrag]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

2x Astrals is unneccesary. Max mp counts for very little compared to healing mp rates, which are the same for every race. To regen enough mp before the next pull to last a fight, max MP isn't the limiting factor even in the lower levels. Ive been an Elvaan rdm from day one, while more MP would be nice there are many better areas to focus in, mainly +hmp and int.

[Amele]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

I don't think it's reasonable at all; a 2000+ MP Convert also requires 2000+ HP.

well, 2200MP, -600 Ballad I+II, -200 sanction refresh. = 1400MP
it's perfectly possible to get 1000 point converts (at least on Taru and Hume, not sure about elvaan) which leaves 400MP.

you need 10 ticks, assuming you're using wizard cookies. if you can find 3 40 second intervals to rest in that 10 minutes, you've recovered all your mp.

if you have a 1k convert, a dalmatica or morrigan's robe, and a relic hat, you can do it without any resting.

or if you get a corsair, you only need one other refresh

Unless you're spamming the MP costly Tier III nukes only, it would seem very difficult have both enough MP and enough time burn through them for Conserve MP to beat out Auto-Refresh.

haste is 40 mp, cure III is 46mp, refresh is 40 mp. cure IV is 88mp. Dia II is 30mp.

in one minute: cast 276mp - 2 hastes, 2 dia II's. 2 refresh is 220 mp.
cast one Cure IV and you're at 300.
cast a cure III and a regen I and you're at 275

RDM is good at difficult critters less so, but not a great fit for cure dumping on a frontline all taking hits all the time from an uncontrolled VT mob. Those /NIN TP spam parties rely on monsters that can't kill parties members before they die. Interestingly enough, WHM is still the better healer--with merits and gears, WHM can toss out cures faster, and have better Regens and more potent Curagas, to boot. i.e. Using less MP to do a better job of keeping the frontline alive.

yeah, I didn't mean rdm is ideal for that situation, just that curaga's are more efficient than cures.

the issue with whitemage is, the extra potency traits don't really make up for a 1k convert - they *have* to rest. (they also can't get the amount of refresh a redmage can.)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

well, 2200MP, -600 Ballad I+II, -200 sanction refresh. = 1400MP
it's perfectly possible to get 1000 point converts (at least on Taru and Hume, not sure about elvaan) which leaves 400MP.

you need 10 ticks, assuming you're using wizard cookies. if you can find 3 40 second intervals to rest in that 10 minutes, you've recovered all your mp.

if you have a 1k convert, a dalmatica or morrigan's robe, and a relic hat, you can do it without any resting.

or if you get a corsair, you only need one other refresh



haste is 40 mp, cure III is 46mp, refresh is 40 mp. cure IV is 88mp. Dia II is 30mp.

in one minute: cast 276mp - 2 hastes, 2 dia II's. 2 refresh is 220 mp.
cast one Cure IV and you're at 300.
cast a cure III and a regen I and you're at 275

I forgot Sanction Refresh, lol. (Watched too many of my sister's Sky merit parties--no Sanction there.)

Some comments on that analysis:

• On the scenario with three 40 second rests, that's 2 minutes of resting in the 10 minute Convert window. Essentially, that means to burn through 2844 MP, a RDM needs to use ~356 MP/min during the time he's up.
• Dia II is once per fight; I don't know what is the average engage-to-engage time at merit levels, so not sure what to make of the twice a minute assumption.
• Haste is 40 MP, lasting 3 minutes. It's 13.3 MP/min, or 133 MP/person to keep one person hasted for the entire Convert window. Hasting 4 people would require 533 MP.
  • Your two Haste/min means 800 MP used during the period--way over-hasted.
• Refresh is 40 MP, for 144 seconds. That's 16.7 MP/min, or 167 MP/person during Convert window. Refreshing two people would require 333 MP. Three people would require 500 MP; four people would require 667 MP.
  • Your two Refresh/min scenario would have used 800 MP--which is actually enough to cover a 4.8 people Refresh cycle.
• Hasting x4 + Refresh x2 = 866 MP during one Convert window. Dia II every 30 seconds is another 600 MP, for a subtotal of 1466 MP. That means using an additional 2844 - 1466 = 1378 MP worth of Cures and debuffs.
  • That's about Cure III x 27, for reference.

[Callisto]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

Hahaha, just a side note guys: The OP is kind of a level 7 RDM asking what to sub for the near future. I think you probably lost them by now with your mathematical subjob analyses. XD

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

I think you probably lost them by now with your mathematical subjob analyses. XD

>_>;; Then, let's have a recap:

/WHM : Good enough for Lv.10-75, and always the main healer's support job of choice.
/BLM : Better safety at dangerous camps in higher levels, thanks to Sleega/Escape. Widely used at end-game situations.
/DRK : For very special, un-common situations--when asked for, though, almost no other substitute possible.
/SMN : For easy additional MP. (Helps with Convert ratios, too.) Not a very important support job, really.

Oddball support jobs: /NIN, /BLU, /WAR, /PLD. Each has its uses, but generally not required for group work. /NIN is a notable for solo use.

[Amele]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

Some comments on that analysis:
On the scenario with three 40 second rests, that's 2 minutes of resting in the 10 minute Convert window. Essentially, that means to burn through 2844 MP, a RDM needs to use ~356 MP/min during the time he's up.

yeah, the 276 I gave was just a single minute example: obviously there's times when you'll cast more cures and fewer hastes, etc.

Dia II is once per fight; I don't know what is the average engage-to-engage time at merit levels, so not sure what to make of the twice a minute assumption.

average engage time is about 30 seconds at most camps (nyzul isle this is exactly the kill speed needed to kill the last pop as the first respawns on the middle level, you'll leave one bird up at a time once you get going on the lower level.)
if you keep this pace indefinitely, and don't lose chain, this corresponds to 23k/hr with full sanction exp bonus on level 81 mobs.

• Haste is 40 MP, lasting 3 minutes. It's 13.3 MP/min, or 133 MP/person to keep one person hasted for the entire Convert window. Hasting 4 people would require 533 MP.
  • Your two Haste/min means 800 MP used during the period--way over-hasted.
• Refresh is 40 MP, for 144 seconds. That's 16.7 MP/min, or 167 MP/person during Convert window. Refreshing two people would require 333 MP. Three people would require 500 MP; four people would require 667 MP.
  • Your two Refresh/min scenario would have used 800 MP--which is actually enough to cover a 4.8 people Refresh cycle.
• Hasting x4 + Refresh x2 = 866 MP during one Convert window. Dia II every 30 seconds is another 600 MP, for a subtotal of 1466 MP. That means using an additional 2844 - 1466 = 1378 MP worth of Cures and debuffs.
  • That's about Cure III x 27, for reference.

this is alot of good points, for thinking about it in terms of convert windows.
so once we pull out the 'extra' hastes/refreshes, you need to cast approximately 3 cure III's a minute, or one cure III and one cure IV a minute. (I think that's pretty reasonable, especially if you start casting other debuffs.)
another thought about rdm/blm vs. rdm/smn - rdm/blm could theoretically include the points gained via aspir as well - if you can average 30mp aspir's (recasting every 60 seconds) you would recover as much mp as auto-refresh (20mp/60seconds).
I don't, however, know how much mp a typical redmage 75 averages. (on whitemage I need to ES aspir to get any mp back at all.)