Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

[Richie]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

I said *IF* I was looking for a healer. If I'm looking for a support/debuffer rdm I don't care what they're using. As for the tanks it's really hard to tell how good they will be and the monster/level plays a huge roll in what kind of dmg they will be taking.

How does casting many spells for low mp cost receive less benefit from Conserve MP than casting a few large spells? Assuming you have the same rate of Conserve mp procing. You're dealing with %s here not set amounts.

The blm's -na spells are just as effective as the rdms. You really only need 2 /whm if you're having a huge -na spelling problem on your hands... and yea the blm should be /rdm but I don't always see that.

But then again, why is there a blm in the party?

well some times you just have to take what you can get =/

Seriously though blm aren't bad. I think any job played by a good player is better than "the right job" played by a bad one.

[Necropolis]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

I said *IF* I was looking for a healer. If I'm looking for a support/debuffer rdm I don't care what they're using. As for the tanks it's really hard to tell how good they will be and the monster/level plays a huge roll in what kind of dmg they will be taking.

Well the way you made it sound made you look like a completly elitist ass. To expect someone to have 500k+ worth of gear on two slots does not make them a better player. Astrals provide 50 extra mp, and I hardley think that will prolong a chain that much further. If I'm looking for a healer, I hands down want them /whm.

A decently geared tank will save the healer more than 50 mp if he can mitigate or absorb damage more effectivley. I personally do not invite people that feel they need to advertise that they have such and such equipment in thier /seacom. Gear does not make the player, skill does. Gear only helps them preform thier job. The best whm I've ever met in the dunes was a galka, and managed his MP infinitly better than most taru whms. And thats saying something as I am a taru whm.

How does casting many spells for low mp cost receive less benefit from Conserve MP than casting a few large spells? Assuming you have the same rate of Conserve mp procing. You're dealing with %s here not set amounts.

Percents is exactly why you're not going to notice a difference in this case. Let's just assume you get Conserve MP to kick in 5 times in a row for 50% cast cost:

Whats a RDM typically cast in a fight? Let's say Paralyze (6mp), Slow(15), Dia II(30), Gravity(24), Cure III (46). Even with 50% savings you only save 62 mp. Odds of getting it to proc 5 times in a row for 50% is not even likely. And is something that should never be counted on.

Now, a BLM might typically cast 5 nukes in a manaburn party: Thunder4(171mp), Blizzard 4(164mp), Burst II (287mp), Freeze II (287), and lets say Stun (25mp). With the same proc rate the BLM is saving 467 MP. As you can see, the trivial 62 mp the rdm saved is nothing compared to what the BLM saved. Over all it's nice when it kicks in, but really doesn't make that much of a difference to a non blm most of the time.

The blm's -na spells are just as effective as the rdms. You really only need 2 /whm if you're having a huge -na spelling problem on your hands... and yea the blm should be /rdm but I don't always see that.

Well, as a blm myself, I go as what the party needs. But I expect the rdm to be handling the brunt of -na spells (in absence of a whm of course) before taking away the potential damage of the BLM's mp. Or best, everyone in the party should know when they need to focus on something that may not be thier "main" job function for a moment.

Seriously though blm aren't bad. I think any job played by a good player is better than "the right job" played by a bad one

I'm not saying BLMs don't belong there, you just struk me as the type of person that would only invite the elite job classes. Of course I did have to solo 40 some odd levels of my blm to hit 75, figured that was just the norm. If that isn't you, I do apologize.

[Richie]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

Well it's a lot harder for a tank to advertise his gear other than just putting in {Incredibly tough} {armor}. When someone takes the time to get astrals for the benefit of the group I think it says a lot about how they play. Assuming they didn't just buy gil because some ass on the forum said they needed it. Again /whm doesn't bring any added healing bonus, only -na spells which aren't even needed on many monsters. Most of what /whm is for is erase which the rdm won't even get until much later.

If I burn 500mp in spells (I can do this pretty quickly) and I get a 50% MP conserve on that casting how is that different then the blm using his 500mp and getting a 50% MP conserve?

One main reason RDM needs to save as much MP as they can is resting is not always an option. A blm can nuke and rest at his leisure, well not including MB and finishing off a mob to complete a chain in time.

The astral rings are only 200k each on Unicorn right now. I never even got a pair when I was leveling, I just borrowed them from a friend. I know this isn't an option for everyone but it doesn't hurt to ask around. I'm sure there are a few nice people in your LS with a set laying around that they never use who may be willing to loan them to you for a while.

I seriously don't even know why we're arguing /whm vs /blm post 41. After 41 a Galka RDM could sub Pedophile and get invited by a group of 12 year olds.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

I seriously doubt a Elvaan RDM would need Astral Ring x2 to main heal. *major eye rolling* Once you have enough max MP to last a battle and a half, it's all about MP recovery. Just have Pilgrim's Wand, Ginger Cookies, and maybe Baron's Slops for the richer players, and you're good until Dark Staff.

Set up a 3+3 party with decent players. That means three "mages" (BRD/WHM included) in the backline, and there should be more enough healing power at any level--just make sure enough people are on /WHM.

Astral Rings? Never a requirement.

[Kirsteena]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

Only way I would expect anyone on their first job to have astrals is by buying gil. Not fair to expect that, neither is it fair to expect a rdm to main heal in the dunes.

[Yevna]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

At low levels (pre 40) if I'm looking for a healer and I see rdm elv I don't invite them UNLESS they have {Astral Ring} x2 in their comment. It's not that I want to exclude them it's that they just can't keep up without the astrals (I know if the tank is good they can but they usually aren't). Now if they do have the astrals I'll probably invite them over a taru. They probably still won't have as much MP but at least it shows that they know what they're doing.

Astral rings are not essential items at low levels (I never used them before). Hmp items--such as cookies, pilgrim's wand, and (my favorite) mp drinks--are more important to have for pre-40 elvaan rdm healers.

[Necropolis]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

If I burn 500mp in spells (I can do this pretty quickly) and I get a 50% MP conserve on that casting how is that different then the blm using his 500mp and getting a 50% MP conserve?

You can burn through 500 mp as a rdm, but it will take you a lot of cast to do so. A blm can do it in 2 spells. Conserver MP activates at a base of 25% of the time, and not always for 50% off cost.

So it's much more likely for the blm to benefit from this as almost ever spell he cast is a significant amount. The rdm may get lucky and save mp on a Thunder 3, but most likely it will proc on a small spell like paralyze. Saving 3 mp doesn't prolong your endurance by any amount of time.

Personally I don't like seeing rdm sub blm pre-51. Thier weaker elemental magic skill is much more likely to get resisted. Also, another consideration about MP use, is convert. It's much easier to use Divine Seal >> Convert >> Cure X. Now you save mp for you or the whm by curing yourself to full instead of taking 2 or 3 spells.

[Karinya]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

The most likely spell for a rdm/blm's conserve mp to go off on is refresh, for the very simple reason that it's the spell you cast the most often. After level 48 Haste would probably be second for the same reason. If you're main healing it will go off on cures pretty often, too.

It's a mistake to think that rdm/blm don't save anything from conserve mp because their spells are smaller than a blm's. Yes, but they cast easily twice as many, probably three times as many spells per minute as a blm does. Many small activations add up to a lot of mp saved per minute - certainly much more than saving one cure spell's worth of mp per *10* minutes with DS (which is probably better saved for curagas even if you are /whm, in most situations).

/blm also gives you elemental seal, sleepga and escape (assuming high enough levels), which can save your party from a bad situation, especially if nobody else in the party has them. Drain and Aspir can be convenient against the right enemies, too. (If you are stoneskinning before convert there is no need to cure yourself to full - a combination of a moderate amount of curing, regen and drain can heal you back up to sufficient HP for pretty cheap.)

The usefulness of nuking will vary strongly with level, enemy, whether or not your party has a SC, and whether you have staves, AF hat and tier 3 nukes. But in the right situations it can be pretty good. Damage is not as high as a blm's, but neither is MP cost.

The main benefits of /whm are the spells you get from it - if you're not using those spells you would probably be better off with Conserve MP, higher max MP and Elemental Seal, Sleepga, Escape, Drain and Aspir.


One thing I would say for the new player, if they are still reading this thread: up to level 40 you should sub WHM most of the time. (After you have subjob unlocked, of course.) Greater subjob variety becomes more useful at higher levels, but at low levels, sub WHM unless you have a clear and specific reason to sub something else.

[Necropolis]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

It's a mistake to think that rdm/blm don't save anything from conserve mp because their spells are smaller than a blm's. Yes, but they cast easily twice as many, probably three times as many spells per minute as a blm does. Many small activations add up to a lot of mp saved per minute - certainly much more than saving one cure spell's worth of mp per *10* minutes with DS (which is probably better saved for curagas even if you are /whm, in most situations).

The problem is you don't see many activations on conserve MP. Or when you do, it's off some small spell. Equivalently you could prob sub smn and end up at about the same amount of mp saved through their auto-refresh trait. I'm just saying that the amount of MP a blm saves off one cast is most likely equal to or greater than the many small activations a rdm might get.

I'm not entirely sure that you'd always save more MP with conserve than using the DS+cure method for convert. At higher levels if you use a Cure IV thats 88 MP. By doubling that you've saved automatically 88 mp. Yes there are other ways of doing it, like you mentioned regen and a smaller cure, really just depends on the party. To save 88 mp you'd have to cast refresh ~4 times and get a 50% savings on them. I highly doubt you'd see that in a small period of time.

I don't want to debate against the utility of Conserve MP, because it is useful, but should not be a major consideration when choosing a subjob. Personally, I default to /whm in pick up parties, or if I know some of the people and thier capabilities /blm would be better.

The main benefits of /whm are the spells you get from it - if you're not using those spells you would probably be better off with Conserve MP, higher max MP and Elemental Seal, Sleepga, Escape, Drain and Aspir.

I agree with that completly. But I certainly don't think a blm should be using those spells before the rdm. I look at as though the rdm is in the party as support, and the blm is there as a DD as thier primary roles. To force the DD to switch to support more often than a class designed to do so seems less effective to me. You might say the BLM is doing nothing but resting MP, but keep in mind that Clear mind builds in time. If you have the BLM getting up every 10 seconds to -na or erase someone, you're hampering his MP recovery and his effectivness in a party.

[Callisto]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

I can't ever see a reason for wearing 2x astrals as a RDM, maybe if you're main heal with some kind of ridiculous mp sponge, but still...at lower levels food will give you plenty of MP boost.

I've played Elvaan RDM for over 3 years and never once wore an astral on it. The only jobs I use mine for are my 14 SMN and 1 for my 33 PLD, which will be phased out when it hits 36.

This also ties in to an underlying issue of mine: RDMs thinking they need to stack MP. What for? Yes you have 1000 MP and a 1:1 Convert ratio. Big deal, your debuffs probably suck compared to a RDM who is geared towards skill+ and INT/MND+. At 75 without food, I have 604 MP as /DRK, 690~ as /BLM and 640~ as /WHM, and I have never had a problem with MP. Even main healing I never have run out of MP before convert is up or had someone die on me because I had no MP to cure with. I gear towards skill and stat+, and I don't need that much MP. I don't have to cast debuffs 7 times because they stick the first time and last most of the fight. A good example of this is Genbu, who has a slight resistance to Dispel. When he uses defense boost, all of these 900+ MP RDMs cast dispel that just gets resisted, no matter how many times they cast it, and here I am with 600 MP, I fire off one Dispel which goes through and move on about my business.

I'd recommend an Elvaan RDM to worry much more about their INT defficiency than about their MP. If you know how to use your spells efficiently, and are equipped so that you don't have to recast debuffs several times due to resists, you won't have many MP problems.

[Amele]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

The problem is you don't see many activations on conserve MP. Or when you do, it's off some small spell. Equivalently you could prob sub smn and end up at about the same amount of mp saved through their auto-refresh trait. I'm just saying that the amount of MP a blm saves off one cast is most likely equal to or greater than the many small activations a rdm might get.

this is the wrong way to think about conserve MP. - basically, he's just as likely to get a proc (or not) as you are - but he casts many fewer spells, so while his proc will be a larger value when it does proc. you will proc much more often over time.

it's an average of 7% of gross mp cost saved over time, so you need to cast ~276mp/min to equate auto-refresh / ballad I.

DS+cure IV is saving you 8.8mp/minute, so you'd only need to cast ~125mp/min to equate DS in terms of saving mp.


generally speaking, a redmage's primary subjob choice is not based on mp-efficiency/endurance, since they have two native abilities geared toward that (more than any other job) but rather based on additional spells/traits.

mostly: if you need -na spells, /whm. if you need to land particular key debuffs, /blm, if you need stun, /drk.

[Necropolis]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

this is the wrong way to think about conserve MP. - basically, he's just as likely to get a proc (or not) as you are - but he casts many fewer spells, so while his proc will be a larger value when it does proc. you will proc much more often over time.

As both a whm/blm and a blm main, and even a rdm on my friends account, you can't count on Conserve MP for anything. I'm mearly trying to state that this trait is not something to base a decision on. Like you said, RDM have enough endurance traits in the MP department that they choose thier sub for spells or abilities to help with other things.

I love Conserve MP when it kicks in, hate it when I'm out of MP and have a mob chasing me. I just can't depend on Conserve MP to kick in when I need it. When I had the energy to test it, I noted one string of cast where it didn't kick in once for 79 cast. Yet I've seen in proc 3 times in a row before. While law of averages mandates that it evens out over time, you can't narrow that time down to happen when you need/want it to.

[Amele]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

As both a whm/blm and a blm main, and even a rdm on my friends account, you can't count on Conserve MP for anything. I'm mearly trying to state that this trait is not something to base a decision on. Like you said, RDM have enough endurance traits in the MP department that they choose thier sub for spells or abilities to help with other things.
I love Conserve MP when it kicks in, hate it when I'm out of MP and have a mob chasing me. I just can't depend on Conserve MP to kick in when I need it. When I had the energy to test it, I noted one string of cast where it didn't kick in once for 79 cast. Yet I've seen in proc 3 times in a row before. While law of averages mandates that it evens out over time, you can't narrow that time down to happen when you need/want it to.

except in situations when I'm casting continuously for over 90 minutes? (like great wyrms back in the day or when low manning them, or in a merit party? etc.)

conserve mp gets better the more mp you use, the faster you use it.

auto-refresh is always the same.

it's possible that it comes down to playstyle, but I have more MP available to me on whm/blm when continuously casting than I do on whm/smn. - and the math backs me up.

[Necropolis]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

except in situations when I'm casting continuously for over 90 minutes? (like great wyrms back in the day or when low manning them, or in a merit party? etc.)

conserve mp gets better the more mp you use, the faster you use it.

auto-refresh is always the same.

it's possible that it comes down to playstyle, but I have more MP available to me on whm/blm when continuously casting than I do on whm/smn. - and the math backs me up.

If you straight cast spells, odds are the BLM is getting the better benifit in this cast. It's a % of cast cost so while we can assume equal proc rates for all jobs it's the blm's spell that cost the most.

I know what the math says, and it isn't calculus, differential equations or any real math. It's statistics, and statistics as a math is flawed as it gives no concrete proof. It tells us what to assume will happen, though makes no guarentees. I know this because I'm less than 4 months away from my Ph.D in applied mathematics, and know how fundamentaly flawed basing decisions on statistics can be.

Flipping a coin has a chance of 50% for either side, yet you can flip heads 1000 times in a row. Each cast is a seperate trial in FFXI, and you have a 75% chance of Conserve MP not to proc. Let's even assume its set in stone that after a 100 cast you get it to proc 25% of the time. There's still the random amount that it will proc for, ranging from 8/16 to 15/16 times the original cast. So we'd have to assume 11.5/16 or 23/32.

How much MP can we use in 100 cast? Blm obviously can use the most, followed probably by whm, then rdm. I'm giving whm 2nd place as thier cure 5 has a hefty cost, where as most rdm spells are shared with either of the other two jobs or are low cost to begin with.

If I cast nothing but AM2 on blm, thats 287MP times 100, so 28,700 MP
On whm is you chain spell cure 5s, thats 135MP times 100, so 13,500 MP
Rdm lets use Thunder 3 (thier highest cost spell?), 128MP times 100, 12,800 MP

Proc Rates & MP saved:
28700*.25*(1-23/32): 2017.97 mp conserved
13,500*.25*(1-23/32): 949.219 mp conserved
12800*.25*(1-23/32): 900 mp conserved

So, obviously blm benifits the most from this trait over time. Whm and Rdm would most likly even out over time depending on what they cast. The blm number is bloated by using a high cost spell 100 times, but it's mearly there for demonstration and easy of calculations.

So, back to rdm and conserver MP, whats the average MP cost of 100 spells that a rdm will cast? In meripo, lets assume they have haste(40 mp) X4, refresh(40 mp) X3, and dia 3 (45 mp), cure III(46 mp). Not much enfeebling going on, depending on party of course. So we can assume about an average spell cost of roughly 42 mp.

(42*100)*.25*(1-23/32): 295.313 mp

So about 300 mp for 100 spell who cost a total of 4200 mp all together. Or like you said ~7%. Honestly that doesn't sound like a critical decision making matter to me, which is all I was trying to state about the trait. And this is assuming we get the average benifit here. Could be more or less as 100 cast is an extremly small sample size. Auto-refresh gives me 1mp/sec 100% of the time, conserve MP is fickle and could be better or worse depending on chance.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Can RDM Elv. Get parties? I found this link. PLZ HELP

Maybe I'm doing the math wrong, but for RDM/BLM vs. RDM/SMN:

Conserve MP (RDM/BLM): Saves 7.03% MP over time. (Assuming 25% proc rate, and cutting MP cost to 8/16 ~ 15/16 on proc.)
Auto-Refresh (RDM/SMN): 200 MP every 10 min.

Then, for Converve MP to match Auto-Refresh, a Red Mage needs to cast 2844MP worth of spells over a 10 minute period. But, a RDM can't burn those 2844MP unless he has them to begin with.

In 10 minutes, Refresh full-time gives 600 MP. That means Convert and resting will have to give 2244 MP, for a RDM without Refresh gears. (I don't know about you, but my RDM rarely rested in exp parties unless there's competition for mobs or if people are AFK.)

I don't see that happening without Refresh gears and maybe a BRD or COR, especially, say, for a Galka RDM. ~2000+ Converts can't be that easy to come by, can it? Certainly doesn't happen at Lv.50, when Auto-Refresh from /SMN becomes available.

* * *

For the poor RDM/WHM without either Conserve MP or Auto-Refresh, let's assume Curaga is like an "AoE Cure II" and Curaga II is "AoE Cure III". Then:

If curing 3 people, Curaga saves 12 MP over Cure II x3; Curaga II saves 18 MP.
If curing 4 people, Curaga saves 36 MP over Cure II x4; Curaga II saves 64 MP.

The bar is set at 200MP over 10 minutes by Auto-Refresh; if a RDM/WHM casts Curaga II FOUR TIMES on FOUR PEOPLE (each time) during the 10 minutes, he would save 256 MP, beating out Auto-Refresh.

At Lv.50, Auto-Refresh would still win, I think. (Curaga II from /WHM won't come until Lv.62.) But, really, a main healing RDM can get a good deal MP saving from /WHM on the strength of Curaga I/II alone.