On RDM/PLD in parties at 74+

[Lmnop]

Re: On RDM/PLD in parties at 74+

Itazura was talking about means of saving party members, I think.

I.e. cover + sentinel is great to save a drk for a second, but a DS cure 4 would plausibly be a better way to delay the imminent death of a DD.

[Icemage]

Re: On RDM/PLD in parties at 74+

I donno, it's just a personal preference thing I'd like to share. Every time when I'm leveling on BLU when I see a RDM DS/CureIV himself I always tend to ask myself if it could have been applied better.

Cure IV is 88MP so DS+CureIV on yourself is 88 free MP, guaranteed.

You can gamble and hold onto it in hopes of casting Curaga II with it (120MP), but that's the only spell that's going to give you a better bang for you buck with Divine Seal (and situationally at that).

I have some Convert merits, so yes, the mismatched timers are a pain sometimes, but I'll always opt to DS + Cure IV myself when it's available. Otherwise if I get the opportunity and it's up I'll use it on Curaga II if the situation demands it.

Either way, 88 or more MP + Auto-Regen (which is enormously useful as a RDM who Converts a lot) yields excellent MP efficiency compared to /PLD's Auto-Refresh, Flash and sketchy JAs.


Icemage

[Hyrist]

Re: On RDM/PLD in parties at 74+

Icemage you overlooked the part where I said it had nothing to do with the OP.

I was questioning as a rdm/whm in party wither or not it was the best use of Divine Seal to consistently use it with Convert or not.

See for me, I see what you say, 88 MP with DS and Cure IV paired with Auto Regen is great for a RDM's convert.

But for what, 40 MP more you change that full HP for the self into a Mini-Bene. Now instead of every 10 minutes you get your MP/HP back, you get your MP HP Back and the group gets the equivalent of a green-eyed statute being killed.


As far as my opinion as PLD. I'm with the crowd on this one. /pld is great for both Ballista and Soloing, but in Parties it really lacks some ultility outside of some certain cercumstances.

If you're in a burn that let's you melee however, I can see how /pld's auto refresh can outweigh the benefits of say /blm's Conserve MP, as you'll be using the expensive spells that utilize Conserve MP more actually less. (Talking about Magic Bursting here.)

So it's really pick and choose. In either case, a wide array of sub jobs for Red Mage is always welcome in my book.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: On RDM/PLD in parties at 74+

DS Cure IV is cool for traditional/standard/non-burn parties.

Personally, DS is a huge waste on ourselves. I give myself a Cure3 in the essence of not getting one-shotted, and I can Regen back up to full life. Of course, I've also merited Convert (like a few exp away from my last Upgrade level), and as it stands, I never sit in exp parties and I'm rarely feinding for MP.

I'd like to sub PLD, honestly, I would. AutoRefresh is a cool concept. But for the purpose of merit parties, it's not feasable. I haven't had a need to sub /WHM, not REALLY anyway, mostly because I make parties with a WHM, a NIN (just someone to initial voke) and 3 Melee/NIN and I go to fight the Trolls.

So for my purposes, /PLD isn't needed against mobs like that. But again, like in my other thread, it was phenomenal on Deco Weapons. Flash is a lot better on those things than Stun, because they take time to charge up their WS and can hopefully miss, while Stun doesn't make them "Waste" TP.

[Icemage]

Re: On RDM/PLD in parties at 74+

So for my purposes, /PLD isn't needed against mobs like that. But again, like in my other thread, it was phenomenal on Deco Weapons. Flash is a lot better on those things than Stun, because they take time to charge up their WS and can hopefully miss, while Stun doesn't make them "Waste" TP.

Correct. Whirl of Rage doesn't have a lot of accuracy to begin with, and Flash can save a lot of pain since it bleeds away the mob's TP.

Unfortunately, Decorative/Aura Weapons are about the only enemy this is actually useful against in an XP setting...


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: On RDM/PLD in parties at 74+

If it's a 3+3 setup with RDM, WHM, and BRD for backline, I can see WHM + RDM/PLD setting up a double Flash rotation. That's not a bad thing at all, even when not fighting against critters with physical AoE attacks.

Probably not for 4+2 setups with only RDM and BRD in the backline, however.

[Icemage]

Re: On RDM/PLD in parties at 74+

If it's a 3+3 setup with RDM, WHM, and BRD for backline, I can see WHM + RDM/PLD setting up a double Flash rotation. That's not a bad thing at all, even when not fighting against critters with physical AoE attacks.

Probably not for 4+2 setups with only RDM and BRD in the backline, however.

In that situation I think /BLM offers better utility.

Conserve MP / Elemental Seal + Sleepga / Chainspell + Escape is a much better safety valve than Auto-Refresh + Flash IMO.


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: On RDM/PLD in parties at 74+

/nod

RDM/BLM would definitely offer better safety in bad situations.

But, for well run groups (LS and static parties), double Flash rotation may let the melee's go wilder. At 25 MP per cast with 0.5s base cast time, it's a whole lot cheaper MP and time wise than casting Cure III's with Conserve MP and any amount of Fast Cast.

At least, on paper it looks decent.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: On RDM/PLD in parties at 74+

Near the end of the party, I asked how people felt I was doing, and I was told I'm an "Impossible to gauge" puller. I'm not sure how to interpret this. Did I do awesome as a puller, period? Or did I merely break the RDM mold and show that we can competently do another task?

Don't take this the wrong way, but RDM, BRD and COR can ask anything and have thier asses kissed. People aren't going to say you did bad even if they wanted to because our jobs are kind of a neccessity and not always easy to get.

Best way to know if this really worked out for your PT is (1) Not to fish for a compliment, if you did an outstanding job pulling, they'll tell you themselves. And (2) Break at least chain #10. I'm not of the opinion that a "good" merit PT has to have an uber-high chain. I've been there and done it but if you're chaining into the teens often, you're doing just fine. If people are getting the merit per hour, they're happy. Don't let some e-peener tell you otherwise, because you probably see more invites to the point his chains and merits are irrelevant

I personally think /NIN would be better overall since shadows would eat reflected spells and allow you to do some light blink tanking on the side if your sleep timers were down. That's another big reason BRDs go for it, the colibri reflect, but COR gets a slight edge on /NIN pulling since Light Shot and the other Quick Draws aren't reflected (its a JA, magical, but not a spell). Saves us a shadow.

I could see BLU being really nice too, considering all the toys it gets to play with in JAs and Spells.

[Icemage]

Re: On RDM/PLD in parties at 74+

/nod

RDM/BLM would definitely offer better safety in bad situations.

But, for well run groups (LS and static parties), double Flash rotation may let the melee's go wilder. At 25 MP per cast with 0.5s base cast time, it's a whole lot cheaper MP and time wise than casting Cure III's with Conserve MP and any amount of Fast Cast.

At least, on paper it looks decent.

Depends on what you're fighting. Enemies like Weapons have very long charge times on their WS like Smite of Rage and you have a decent window to react with Flash, and they have no defensive or magical WS so Flash is always a safe bet against them.

This is unfortunately not true for the majority of enemies, and even there, it only affects physical WS. Using Flash against spellcaster Mamool Ja, for instance, is pretty pointless since their nastiest attack, Firespit, is magical and unaffected by Flash.

Flash is a great spell, don't get me wrong, but don't overestimate its power. It'll save melees a melee hit or two, which does turn into somewhat more damage over time since they're not casting Utsusemi quite as often, but RDM's relatively low Divine score means that it won't have the relatively persistent blinding effect that WHMs and PLDs enjoy with the spell.


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: On RDM/PLD in parties at 74+

I wasn't thinking of saving Flash until TP attacks; the idea is to have a Flash x 2 rotation to cover the frontline fighters for ~20-24 sec per fight, which would drastically cut down on healing needs long term.

Of course, that was assuming RDM's E rated Divine Magic won't impact its accuracy/duration too much, like what Stun does for NIN/DRK. If that's not the case, then RDM/PLD would be a lot less attractive.

Either way, I do not expect /PLD to overtake /BLM or /WHM in regular pickup parties.

[Icemage]

Re: On RDM/PLD in parties at 74+

I wasn't thinking of saving Flash until TP attacks; the idea is to have a Flash x 2 rotation to cover the frontline fighters for ~20-24 sec per fight, which would drastically cut down on healing needs long term.

Flash doesn't last very long at all even with a WHM's A rank Divine Magic skill. Against IT++ enemies, the duration is incredibly short; a few seconds at best, and when you're talking about a level 74 Red Mage using Flash spotting around 50 levels of Divine Magic against a WHM's, you're going to see very short durations and ridiculous amounts of partial resists; it's very possible to have the Flash take effect and wear off before even a single attack is calculated.

It works OK against Weapons when RDM/PLD because they're weak to Light magic. Against other enemies... not so much, except undead (I could maybe see using RDM/PLD in King Ranperre's Tomb for Holy Circle and Flash... maybe... but for there you'd probably want the insurance policy of Chainspell/Escape).

Of course, that was assuming RDM's E rated Divine Magic won't impact its accuracy/duration too much, like what Stun does for NIN/DRK. If that's not the case, then RDM/PLD would be a lot less attractive.

Either way, I do not expect /PLD to overtake /BLM or /WHM in regular pickup parties.

Accuracy isn't so much the problem. Except in the worst of cases, Flash almost always sticks (I've only ever had it fail against particularly resistant NMs like Fenrir Prime or Dynamis Lord). Partial resists will be brutal though, even if you swap in some Magic Accuracy gear and an Apollo Staff.

The extremely short expected duration is really the problem with RDM/PLD's Flash. Unless you're exploiting an elemental weakness to Light, expect the 25MP to only be useful for stopping very brief attacks like WS.


Icemage

[WishMaster3K]

Re: On RDM/PLD in parties at 74+

That, and Banish is pretty useless. I'm glad that SE left Divine and Dark magic on RDMs, even though our skill in those are worse than our Evasion.. I see RDM/PLD useful in Soloing situations where you're going to be Blood Tanking anyway, farming (If anyone does that anymore O_o) and capping your 5th native magic skill (WHAT THE FUDGE, My Healing magic STILL isn't capped... raising PLD to 75 is a sure fire way for me to capp Shield, Parry, Healing and Divine for use on my RDM..).

No one feels like journeying to Sky anymore, otherwise, it's perfect for a Deco Weapon camp. Against Mamools, Trolls, Puks, Imps or Wyverns.. Hmm.. No not really.

Only other option I see for /PLD in the new continent would be on the Trees in Caedarva.. But aren't all their TP moves magical as well? That AOE leaf thing hurts, and you usually don't see it coming anyway..

[LoneGamer]

Re: On RDM/PLD in parties at 74+

Omgwtfbbqkitten, I wasn't looking for ass kissing, I was looking for honest feedback. Especially since there was another party in the same spot also hunting Colibri.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: On RDM/PLD in parties at 74+

I think BBQ's point was that RDM is that it doesn't matter what you were asking for an honest evaluation--people may have incentive to lie and say you performed great even if you did not meet their expectations completely.

Social niceties and not wanting to burn bridges with "good enough" RDM's and all that...