16 magic merits

[BurningPanther]

Re: 16 magic merits

I still think Group 2 woulda been better served with "Refresh Potency/Duration," "Fast Cast %" "Stoneskin Absorb" "Phalanx Absorb" or "Resist Petrify" merits. Anyone with me?

No?

Le sigh...

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: 16 magic merits

I still think Group 2 woulda been better served with "Refresh Potency/Duration," "Fast Cast %" "Stoneskin Absorb" "Phalanx Absorb" or "Resist Petrify" merits. Anyone with me?

No?

Le sigh...

I'd say no to Refresh potency; three forms of stackable "refresh" already, plus all those Auto-Refresh equipment, and Sanction refresh, and /SMN AND /PLD--enough is enough. ^_^; Duration might be OK, but sounds like it's be a major pain to test: "OK, you QA people, find out what extra 10 seconds on Refresh would break anything. Then do it for 20 seconds, 30 seconds, 40 seconds, 50 seconds, and one minute. Cover everything from meripo to HNM to missions. You got one week."

(Yes, you have to test these things extensively before putting them into the game, no matter how nice it may sound to some/many players. "Oh this would be great to have!" is usually a tipoff that it's probably bad for the game balance.)

As for others, I don't much any real opinion except that S-E can probably power up the existing Blind II, Bio III, and Phalanx II a bit without breaking the game, though Slow II is nice enough on its own for me to overlook those three spells.

[BurningPanther]

Re: 16 magic merits

I only suggest "Refresh Potency" as a retort to those who keep begging for a Refresh II. Honestly, I could go without, but if placed in Group 2, max of 3 merits, 1 extra MP/tick per, I suppose it might fall into the category of overpowered.

I'd be happy with the current strength of the tier 2 Enfeebles, if they'd just make them cheaper. But then the Enfeebles themselves aren't really the problem...

[Taskmage]

Re: 16 magic merits

I still think Group 2 woulda been better served with "Refresh Potency/Duration," "Fast Cast %" "Stoneskin Absorb" "Phalanx Absorb" or "Resist Petrify" merits. Anyone with me?
No?
Le sigh...

Don't you already have a thread on this somewhere else? Can we just link it instead of restarting the conversation in this thread?

[Karinya]

Re: 16 magic merits

It depends a lot, honestly, on what you're doing and who you're doing it with. If someone is holding hate solidly then it doesn't matter that Slow affects all attacks the mob makes regardless of target and Phalanx only affects attacks made to a particular target because those sets of attacks are identical.
If as an example, I have a mob that's hitting my tank for 100 damage a hit and my Phalanx II reduces his damage taken by 18. That's 18% off his damage taken on top of whatever Slow reduces it by.

More for shielded hits; IIRC Phalanx is applied second-to-last (only Stoneskin-like effects come after it).

Let's say my slow reduces attack speed by 25% since my mnd isn't too great. So ...
TotalDamage x (100% - 25%) x (100% - 18%) = TotalDamage x 61.5%
his total damage taken would be reduced by 38.5%, slightly better than a maxed out Slow II would do (37%). Yes yes, I know this supposes something like a merit party with a pld tank which isn't exactly the standard, but Slow II and Para II are very poor in any merit party setup due to their mp cost vs how often you have to recast since the debuff dies with the kill. This is an example of a possible situation in which Phalanx II could excel.

True, except:
1. Who wants to buy merit abilities to do more meriting anyway?
2. Obviously you can kill merit mobs just fine without Phalanx 2 or you could never have gotten the merit points to buy it.

However, it also applies to assault, which isn't done in large groups where a SMN is probably available, and to Dynamis/Limbus if you have no SMN or they're in a different group, etc.

I just personally don't feel it's worthwhile to spend a bunch of merit points to duplicate something SMNs do AoE for free, when the group 2 limits are so restrictive to start with. It's just not worth giving up stronger Para2, Slow2 or Dia3 (IMO) and with the group 2 limits we have, that's exactly what you'd be doing to get it.

I don't think there's any clearly bad distribution of group 2 merits, though. It's a matter of personal choice and what type of events you're doing.

The only endgame I do is dynamis, and we usually have an abundance of rdms in our group, so I'm rarely able to land Para or Slow before someone else gets to it, and even if I do that just means someone else's mp goes to waste instead of my own. I'm happier being able to provide some protection in parallel to those debuffs landing instead of in competition of them. And of course, Phalanx II is pretty nifty vs Hundred Fists, mitigating a whole lot of damage in a very short time.

True, but Noctoshield does just as well or better (and only needs to be cast once for a 2-3 tank party). I'd feel a lot more favorable about spending merit points and Group 2 merit limits on Phalanx 2 if Noctoshield didn't exist, but it does, so the only benefit you're getting is the *difference* between the two, unless your LS has no SMNs in regular attendance.

Moreover, I feel like Phalanx II is the only ability of the bunch that's actually "new." All the other spells are at best 1.5x more potent than their predecessors at 2-8 times the mp cost. Not to say that they're not worth it, but putting Phalanx on other people who can use it better than me is something I've never been able to do before whereas I've been casting Slow and Para for years.

True, but again, Noctoshield overshadows it. Why pay merits to do what someone else can do for free, AoE? Hell, if they don't have Diabolos, I'll organize a run for them, it'll be quicker than getting 3-12 merit points (to say nothing of the impact on the group limit).

But then, I've heard some people don't like Dia III and I love it. 5% more def down on something with ~300 def = another -15 def compared to Dia II, which is more or less like giving +15 more attack to *every* physical DD in the party. There's so few ways for a RDM to speed up killing (most of our abilities focus on keeping the party alive longer by weakening the monster's ability to deal damage back) that every one you can get is precious.

[Fynlar]

Re: 16 magic merits

Phalanx 2 is arguably the most powerful meritable we have, and people who don't think so probably solo or party with NINs and /NINs all the time =/

Out of all the meritables, it is the most unique. It opens up the most possibilities. It is useful in many, many situations, whereas with all the other meritables the MP cost versus the benefit gained is very often "questionable".

Main thing about Dia 3 that killed it for me was its duration; fully merited it's still less than Dia 2, which is really sad. I suppose if I did HNM I would rank it higher, but I don't see it as really valuable for the things I do, like meripo. I can't even throw Dia 2 at every mob that comes in meripo if they are coming in fast enough, plus the melees are gonna be slaughtering it regardless of whether or not I Dia. Stepping up to Dia 3 would just worsen my problems.

Bio 3 suffers from the same shortened duration as Dia, and from our craptacular Dark Magic skill. It's not even good for soloing via DoT because of these reasons. You are better off in most cases by using Bio 2 instead and using the MP you save from not using Bio 3 to fuel a Blizzard 3 or something, which chances are is going to do more damage than the additional 2/tick Bio 3 would have done.

Blind... meh

As much as I like Paralyze (my favorite enfeeble), Paralyze 2 lacks consistency which kills it for me. Yes, I occasionally see multiple para procs with Para 2. I also see them with Para 1, and for 1/6th the MP cost. I'll stick with Slow 2, which actually has a consistent noticeable effect over Slow 1, and even has the added benefit of overwriting/blocking most Haste effects.

I think one point in Slow 2 (just to have it there; it's already noticeably better than Slow 1 even at one point), two points in Phalanx 2 (so you can add it in to a Refresh cycle), and three points in Dia 3 is a fine build. Myself though, I will probably skip Dia 3 entirely and just max the other two >_>

True enough. When Paralyze procs, everyone in the party avoids damage, When Slow reduces turns, everyone staves off a potentially lethal blow, whereas Phalanx 2 focuses on just the one.

Uhh, what? Slow reduces the number of hits on the TANK. Paralyze procs reduces the number of the hits on the TANK. Phalanx reduces the amount of damage on the TANK. Where are these magical mobs that hit everyone in the party with their normal attacks?

If you're just having a bunch of people /NIN burn everything and you don't have a tank, why would you even consider using Phalanx to begin with?

1. Who wants to buy merit abilities to do more meriting anyway?

It's what I did when I got Phalanx 2. A lot of my meriting was done by duoing with a MNK friend in Caedarva Mire. Since I don't want him fumbling around with Utsusemi and breaking chains, I have him go /WAR. Phalanx 2 drops the damage he takes to around that of a standard PLD, and it also can completely negate the damage taken from the imps' Blaze Spikes, eliminating the need to try to dispel them (almost every imp will try to cast it first thing upon being pulled).

Using merits to get more merits is a common practice and is actually smart, considering how long the merit process can be. You might as well ask why we bother getting EXP or gil, or even playing the game at all.

I only suggest "Refresh Potency" as a retort to those who keep begging for a Refresh II. Honestly, I could go without, but if placed in Group 2, max of 3 merits, 1 extra MP/tick per, I suppose it might fall into the category of overpowered.

I posted my idea on Alla for a Refresh 2 a while back. Guess I'll repost it here, seeing as how I don't think I ever got back any comments saying that it was terribly broken or anything o_O



My idea for a Refresh 2 (it'll never happen, but we can dream, right?):

120 (tripled) MP cost, identical or slightly longer recast time (as with most other tiered spells), 5/tic restore, same 2:30 duration.

Meaning it would restore 130 MP to yourself (subtracting the MP cost) as opposed to Refresh 1's 110. It is slightly better efficiency in a solo situation, but it does require a much bigger investment on-hand. Spend more, get more; makes sense right? It wouldn't be totally broken for solo, it's only 80 more MP restored to you over the course of one standard Convert cycle, so no biggy there.

As for most party situations, you aren't gonna be able to maintain Refresh 2 on every MP user, no way. That's to be expected though; this will get the RDM to mix up their Refresh 1s and 2s on the various party members depending on their level of need, which means less time waiting on recast timers, meaning you can get the Refreshes out sooner, meaning you could get time to rest where you otherwise might not have been able to due to a Refresh-heavy PT setup. That or you can just have more time to do other things, if your MP can stomach it.

Here's how I see it: 3/tic means a lot less by the high levels than it does at level 41. Other jobs get the ability to do a zero-MP-cost AoE Refresh, and some of theirs even have the occasional potential to do more than 3/tic (COR can do it before we even get Refresh at level 40, more easily with a SMN in the party; BRD can do it with Gjallarhorn or Soul Voice). Ours costs MP, it's only single target, and nothing we can do allows our Refresh to give more than 3/tic to someone. Call me jaded, but I just don't believe that's very fair. If our Refresh is going to have such disadvantages, I think it's only fair that we'd be able to do more than a consistent 3/tic with our Refresh =/

Anyway, that's just my idea. Now, where's that Barfire spell...