RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

[hongman]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

All I can say is wow.

Too much beyond me to contribute much, except I would really welcome a melee guide - I have been keen to cap my sword/dagger skill, and quite like the "Melee Red Mage" thing, except I have no clear understanding of what I lack in to be good at it. So a guide would be welcomed.

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Sleep Bolts, Acid bolts (Defense Down, stacks with Dia) and WAR, DRK, THF and RNG can use them. There are also Demon Arrows (Attack Down, stacks with Bio) and Kabura arrows (silence). Then there's the Evasion Down from Mezraq and various other weapons with poison, silence, slow, and various Down effects.

Sure, cause we all know that warriors and drks will take away from their Rampage-whoring to pluck their low-rated crossbow against a monster.

They use that for soloing, and pulling before burns get inportant. Try again.

And Ranger's always going use a X-bow over a Gun or Bow in Burn.

A Thf MIGHT use status bolts, (they really should use them more often.) but the pratice dies out as the levels go up.

BLU can use Diamondhide and PLD can use Rampart for AoE Stoneskin, not unlike SMN.
BLU also has Healing Breeze and Magic Fruit for curing. And many physical spells have enfeebling effects.

BLU's are nice when they use Diamondhide. But if the they are using Healing Breeze and Magic Fruit for curing, they've detracted themselves from a DD standpoint. Also, it should be noted that BLU is a Hybrid job class, very much like RDM. Being varible is a part of their game so naturally they are going to have some support skills.

Dragoon - mage sub = healer wyvern = cheapest Cure IIIs in the game

IF they ever use it in a party. In a burn? Ha, /sam or /nin onry. In a party, tack on /war and /thf as possible combos. Try to get a Drg to sub whm in a party? They'll laugh at you.

Spirit Surge allows a DRG to remove 100 percent of an ally's enmity via Super Jump and the other Jumps have debuff effects.

Yeah, thats so helpful, you know, because we use 2hrs every five minutes.

DRG's Angon also has Defense down.

Mostly an endgame implimen to help with events. It's uses are limited in exp and burns. But yes, I'll conseed this one.

THF gets a form of Dispel in merit called Aura Steal, taking a mob buff and placing it on themselves.

- IF you have a thf who merits it. And Dispel removes extra protection, not addionally weakens a mob. I mean camon, even a Corsair can dispel.

SAM has a merit ability that transfers 100 TP to an ally.

Wow, you know your merits.
No, their merit ability transfers TP ABOVE 100 to allies in parties. It spreads evenly, and a SAM is going to TP spam Sidewinder before he uses this ability.

Yes, it's useful, if the SAM beleives in storing the TP to help other people. That's not likley in exp or burns.

That Ninja guy. He debuffs (OMG!)

When's the last time you saw a Nin spam elemental wheel in party? 57? 63? Paralize Slow and Blind are DEFENSIVE debuffs, and their not used in burns, mob dies too fast. Same goes for elemental wheel if you get a rare gem that actually uses them later in game.

Beastmaster - the unsung crowd control job! I knew there was a reason I didn't bring sneak oils to Fei'Yin! Charm, Leave, Charm, Leave.

Oh and as if BSTs are a hot item in EXP parties...

Crowd control != offensive assistance. Again, that's defensive. You really mistkook what I said.

Ranger - Shadowbind (strongest bind in the game)

See above.

Corsair - Let jobs borrow other jobs' traits, uses Quick Draw to make enfeebs proc hard and nukes rock hard.

Cause a Corsair is never considered a support job at all... And melee? When do you get time to meele when you're running around doing rolls? "You're gimping exp/hr!!"

PUP- it punches, it nukes, it arrows, it vokes, it enspells, it enfeebles, it... doesn't get invited to PT.
...

I wish pup would ge invited more. But asside form Dia, it's pretty much a straight DD. (or tank.) And by the time the Puppet Lands Dia (if it even casts), the WHM or I already have, unless we fell gracious enough to let the PUP spend the MP and save us the 30 MP


Oh, and you forgot Tamahawk, but that would get in the way of bolts now woulden't it?

So now that I've debunked 90% of what you consider "damage support", lets reconsider.

What jobs are considered "Melee?" MNK WAR THF DRG SAM PUP BST

BLU? Hybrid
DRK? Somewhere between melee and Hybrid.

RNG? Ranged

COR? Ranged/Support

BLM?: Nuke

SMN?:Nuke/Support

What are the jobs that are supporting damage for more than themselves in the majoirty of burns?

RDM, BRD, WHM, COR, and possibly BLU.

All of which have a foot or more into the support role. All of them can deal additional support via meleeing, provided the situation is right for it.

Quit wasting time trying to win points on mutable techicalities.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

The first important concept in this whole Melee RDM thing is MP usage/management/conservation.

Murphie, Aksannyi, Taskmage and Icemage all revealed that they rarely take a knee in the current exp pts.

For myself, there are a couple of aspects that fully expand on my own personal flexibility:
- I'm the same way. It's rare that I'll need to take a knee, or it's wierd that with sanction Refresh and RDM Refresh I'll ever be out of MP.
- My own personal concept of using all the MP I can before the next Convert. I feel that RDMs have Convert for a reason, and there is no need to save Convert for an emergency if we can blow all the MP we want and get it right back.
-My Convert recast is at 8:20.

Due mostly to Icemage's influence, I've been trying to push more MP out of my Convert Ratios. With no merits and with no luxury gear (Zenith, Crimson, etc) I can get like a 995HP/990MP ratio before I Convert (WHM sub).

That's 1k of MP every 8 and a half Minutes, compared to most RDMs who save Convert and/or rarely need to use it, roughly using only a net of 700-800 MP every 15ish minutes.

Me blowing all that MP via multiple Hastes, and nukes (I fully merited Ice, so I usually don't bother with a staff and I can reach the 600s on exp mobs. Oh, and I'm Taru ) isn't a consequence.

And I'm not a rich guy either, I've just been playing this game since forever. I've prided myself on knowing the In's-and-Out's of RDM, and what Hyrist put in front of the community is another step of RDM evolution that I'm glad to be a part of.

Moving on, BBQ, you mentioned something about all the traits/tools DDs get.

I don't feel like disecting each aspect, because I have a feeling you love COR and RNG like I love RDM (knowing every aspect.) So it's likely you use debuffing arrows.

But just like in your community RDM Melee Mentallity Assessment, keep in mind the mentallity of 98% of melees end-game.

I've had TONS of Wars who didn't wanna voke because they'd
- Lose a few seconds on the parse
- Actually have to pay attention to shadows
- Cast Utsu.. And lose more seconds on the parse.

I haven't seen a RNG use Shadowbind outside of HNMs.... these attack down arrows and such you speak of? Foreign concept.

Kabura Arrows? (Ok, that was funny, I'll admit)

Weapons with "Down" effects? Come on.. We're not in the 20s. How often does Garuda's Dagger proc?

The only weapons I see RNGs use are either the Trailers Kukri or those ridiculous Axes.

In fact... no one uses "down" effect weapons in exp.

What you said might have been remotely on the mark, but outside of your SAM, BLU and PLD examples, everything isn't set in stone.

RDMs make the mob weaker
BRDs make the pt stronger
COR give an "Extra" pt member (or 4, lol...)

What Hyrist said rings true in that RDMs have an A+ in Enfeebling, so we're at least expected to do that.

With Fast Cast, Convert and Self Refresh, throwing in multiple rounds of Haste shouldn't be a problem. If I'm Refreshing myself, a WHM and Hasting/Refreshing the PLD, that's 160Mp a cycle. I'll usually Haste myself so I get it over with quicker and I have more downtime to do other things. And like I said earlier, losing 1:40 on Convert makes a HUGE difference.

I don't even DS after Convert anymore. I take a Cure 4 and I Regen myself. I save DS for Curaga IIs after really bad AOEs

I haven't been in an exp pt in so long (I'm sick ;; ) but good lord I'm eager to test these concepts out.

I suppose my play style is a little extravagant, but it allows immense flexibility.

[tdh]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Sleep Bolts, Acid bolts (Defense Down, stacks with Dia) and WAR, DRK, THF and RNG can use them. There are also Demon Arrows (Attack Down, stacks with Bio) and Kabura arrows (silence).

This I WISH were true. I can personally tell you that a DRK using those status effects evoke the "lolPUP." E Rated skill in Marksmanship which is a pain in the ass to keep leveled. Especially since we already have 2 to 4 weapons we try to keep Skilled? Not to mention, have you ever swung a Scythe? Do you do realize it takes a full Vana'diel day to swing one right? I've actually gotten up to check my Internet connection between swings. "Whoa, that's some serious lag. Oh wait, that's just DLY:528." I've also never seen a RNG in Meripo use Xbow. All Bow, all the time! With a very few who went with a gun.

I have seen a WAR trying to use these, but that's more outta trying to cap all his skills. But he's not firing repeatedly, maybe once at the start of each fight, and once near the end.

Then there's the Evasion Down from Mezraq and various other weapons with poison, silence, slow, and various Down effects.

From what I've seen the proc rate on the Mezraq isn't that great, but I also haven't Meripo'd with many DRGs either. Either way, you're lowing the Eva of a mob to a group of people who most likely have Merits, and Acc+40 or more on top of Sushi. I've always thought this weapon should have been in the 50's or 60's to be more helpful, but "meh."

Dragoon - mage sub = healer wyvern = cheapest Cure IIIs in the game

Sadly, I know a DRG who loves his /WHM far too much. This, however, is not the norm. It is cheap, and can be helpful, but not quite as helpful as to out weight /WAR, /NIN, or /SAM. This same DRG also has fully Merit'd Angon and uses it without fail. Though they also inform the LS every time they "pull hate from High Jump." /sigh

Beastmaster - the unsung crowd control job! I knew there was a reason I didn't bring sneak oils to Fei'Yin! Charm, Leave, Charm, Leave.

If a BST is invited to a Meripo, they're not there to do crowd control. This is true for other situations, but in a Meripo somebody else is doing the crowd control. There's also the point that I have NEVER even seen a BST in a Meripo to this day.

I've also never seen a COR in a Meripo now that I think about it. I've only actually partied with 2 of them. 1 at Lv.60 and one at Lv.70. At Lv.60 I loved him. Static with a THF and Rouge's Roll is nice! In the 70's I was RDM, and could have done with out him, but they did decent damage from what I could see. My last party with a PUP was Lv.31, no idea what they do in a Meripo.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Sure, cause we all know that warriors and drks will take away from their Rampage-whoring to pluck their low-rated crossbow against a monster.[

They use that for soloing, and pulling before burns get inportant. Try again.

Who said WARs and DRKs had to? RNGs and THFs - at least those worth a damn - will use Xbow for acid bolts. THF won't spam bolts like a RNG does, but the great ones will think to drop an acid bolt before WS/SC just like any RNG using Xbow would.

And Ranger's always going use a X-bow over a Gun or Bow in Burn.

No, that is what a cheap RNG does. RNGs don't have to use higher damage ammo weapons, but most RNGs I know will bring gun, bow and Xbow to a PT and play to thier liking.

A Thf MIGHT use status bolts, (they really should use them more often.) but the pratice dies out as the levels go up.

Generalization. The best THFs I know never part with status bolts. No good THF does.

BLU's are nice when they use Diamondhide. But if the they are using Healing Breeze and Magic Fruit for curing, they've detracted themselves from a DD standpoint. Also, it should be noted that BLU is a Hybrid job class, very much like RDM. Being varible is a part of their game so naturally they are going to have some support skills.

IF they ever use it in a party. In a burn? Ha, /sam or /nin onry. In a party, tack on /war and /thf as possible combos. Try to get a Drg to sub whm in a party? They'll laugh at you.

OK, now you're showing some serious ignorance. If you're going to sit here and tell me a RDM can do everything they're expected and melee "worthwhile" damage, but sneer at the very notion of BLU or DRG playing a viable support role, you've got some major hypocrisy going down by pidgeonholing what other jobs can do when they could potentially be doing more or different functions.

I've been invited to PTs by DRG/WHMs and /BLU. Best BLUs I've PTed with add support to their routine because they *gasp* think of their PTs first.

Additionally - DRG/NIN = Balanced wyvern. It can cure, too, but that's gimp, right?

"lolSupport DRG," says you, the melee RDM.

Yeah, thats so helpful, you know, because we use 2hrs every five minutes.

I guess all two hours are totally worthless then. Because we can't use them every five minutes.

Mostly an endgame implimen to help with events. It's uses are limited in exp and burns. But yes, I'll conseed this one.

You'll concede this one, but not the status bolts and arrows?

W...T...F...

IF you have a thf who merits it. And Dispel removes extra protection, not addionally weakens a mob. I mean camon, even a Corsair can dispel.

Is said Aura Steal removes a buff from the mob and transfers it to the THF. I said nothing about it or dispel addtionally weakening the mob in some other way. Point is, its a support function. It dispels.

No, their merit ability transfers TP ABOVE 100 to allies in parties. It spreads evenly, and a SAM is going to TP spam Sidewinder before he uses this ability.

Yes, it's useful, if the SAM beleives in storing the TP to help other people. That's not likley in exp or burns.

Yes but we're talking about melee support abilities not what melees may or may not do.

You've been talking about how to make RDM melee viable and possible in a TP burn setting. But THEN you said melees didn't have many worthwhile support abilities to extend damage output or PT endurance. When you made that condition, the whole TP Burn aspect of your argument becomes a side issue.

You're not helping your argument for RDM melee when you spout ignorance about melee support abilites and tools. If you came to me and told me my acid bolts don't change damage, maybe I should let you see the SAM/RNGs in my PTs go from 1.5k Sidewinder to 2k Sidewinder. Yes, the original value was with a BRD and Minuet x2, but the end result damn sure wasn't beause a RDM cast Dia II. It was the acid bolts.

When's the last time you saw a Nin spam elemental wheel in party? 57? 63? Paralize Slow and Blind are DEFENSIVE debuffs, and their not used in burns, mob dies too fast. Same goes for elemental wheel if you get a rare gem that actually uses them later in game.

Oh and as if BSTs are a hot item in EXP parties...

Crowd control != offensive assistance. Again, that's defensive. You really mistkook what I said.

Again, I'll refer to your statement that melees add nothing to help the endurance of a group. I mistook nothing.

NIN enfeebs and shadows don't help keep him from getting hit or saving a mage MP? That doesn't help the PT? Are you seriously telling me this?

A BST outside your group charming monsters to kill others that might link? This isn't useful? I'll concede the instances in which BST are able to do this are few - CoP Wyrms spring to mind - but they do support. If they are in a PT and you get some mob links, they can take care of that problem.

Cause a Corsair is never considered a support job at all... And melee? When do you get time to meele when you're running around doing rolls? "You're gimping exp/hr!!"

Why do I get to melee and pull? Because Phantom Roll is a one-minute umbrella Job Ability, I can only pick one buff a minute and one Quick Draw a minute. What to do in the time in between? I could pull with /NIN and stage fights with Light Shot, I could sub /WHM for cure and status removal, I could sub /RNG for extra and very worthwhile DD provided pulling was already covered by another job.

But at those burn levels we all love so much, I've seen that in most cases my damage isn't signifigant enough to remain on the frontlines and since I have a gun that lowers the playing field on pulling at 72 and Light Cards for sleep, I have a way I can aid my PT outside of the frontline while still keeping the buffs on and the chains high.

Now, why would I not melee? Seems like a job made for it, right? Same sword rating as RDM, access to guns, QD damage. Even the buffs.

Well, at merit levels, I've come to the conclusion that my damage isn't a deal breaker. The melee kill just fine without me. So I instead channel my focus into pulling and sleeping mobs to stage the next fight and we see high chains as a result. I just pull, sleep and buff. All I do.

Were I do melee, though, I could go /RNG and have a wealth or TPing options. Joyeuse, guns, Barrage and even Samurai Roll. I could easily put out more DoT and WS damage than a RDM could.

If I were to melee and a setup that allowed for it, I would completely outdamage a RDM.

Fastest Shortsword in the game
Fastest Gun in the game.
/RNG
End of story.

But I've already been able to make the call that I don't need to melee where most burn PTs are concerned. If I can withdraw my melee role to pull and still get high chains, then what arguement could you hope to make for RDM melee in burn PTs?

This is why I keep saying your damage is overshadowed. Mine is too. I don't begrudge the melee for doing better than me or think my melee is weak, but I can't deny there's something more productive I could be doing that poking the mob with a sword. Pulling and staging fights is it.

Maybe you should go RDM/RNG and get a piece of the action COR and BRD already do. You can use bows, right?

I am a support class with a more viable argument for melee, however, I'm one of the few CORs that has been able to adapt to a style of play that doesn't include melee. Its a skill, not all CORs can do it and many won't because they want the same as you.

They want to melee.

And they short their PTs potential for it by adding nothing to the damage pool at merit level.

So now that I've debunked 90% of what you consider "damage support", lets reconsider.

Refresh my memory, what debunking? 90% of what you said its incorrect. We can support both damage and endurance for the PT, which was the opposite of your original claim. You keep trying to change what that claim was,

You said melees can't help with damage support or help with PT endurace. Everything I listed defies that. For someone who wants to melee so badly, you really need to get educated on what melees do because according to you we put all our focus in to hurting things.

My macros say otherwise.

Moving on, BBQ, you mentioned something about all the traits/tools DDs get.

I don't feel like disecting each aspect, because I have a feeling you love COR and RNG like I love RDM (knowing every aspect.) So it's likely you use debuffing arrows.

Demon Arrows (Attack Down) and Kabura Arrows (Silence) are the highest damage arrows a RNG uses in EXP, Merit or Gods. The damage is just as much a reason to use them as the debuffs are. Though I use Kabura for WS, I don't really spam them.

Weapons with "Down" effects? Come on.. We're not in the 20s.

Already covered this, but just to add:

Anyone who's suffered those painful genkai 1 range of levels as a melee knows getting a BRD, RDM or even a COR is a dream. Crabs and Beetles are pretty much it at this level.

That said, that whole Defense Boost thing is really annoying and slows down fights. Yet, with a Dia II and Acid Bolts, you may not have actully dispelled the effect, but you have come pretty damn close. The Down effects do not stack, but they do help signifigantly.

And if the mob was weak already, dear god, that poor mob doesn't have a hope if an acid bolt lands (and if often does). Those who discarded acid bolts in the 20s and could have uses them actively have not only limited the damage out of the PT, but themselves, too.

Its just plain foolish to try to play off the value of acid bolts and status arrows. Totally sure the PLD or NIN doesn't want the RNG to Attack Down the mob. No that couldn't possibly help them take less damage or save a WHM some MP.

RDMs make the mob weaker
BRDs make the pt stronger
COR give an "Extra" pt member (or 4, lol...)

1 - O
2 - O
3 - X

COR does both, I don't what your #3 was.

We have buffs past the 37 mark that distiguish us from BRDs. We can give Double Attack Bonus, Critical Hit rate, TP bonuses, Magic Attack Bonus, Magic Accuracy Bonus, +hMP Bonus, the pet Attack Bonus, pet Accuracy Bonus and pet Magical Attack/Accuracy.

We hold our own against the attack and accuracy buffs BRD gives, but have the edge on mage and pet buffs and our higher level buffs feel more like free merits than they do free armor of food.

And with Quick Draw, we enhance debuffs that are already there, I make Paralyze proc more ofthen with Ico Shot or increase th effect of Slow with Earth Shot. Works with Magic, Ninjutsu, Songs and even some Blood Pacts. Also acts like a Threnody pre-nuke or pact.

In short, what COR does is improve what was already there by enhancing debuffs and usually buffing based on the talents PT members.

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

BBQ, where is your head at?

Honestly, are you referring to levels 50-65 or meripo and burns?

Cause I'll tell you right now, I've never seen a RNG use a Xbow in a Meripo. I've rarely seen a THF use an X-bow for anything besides pulling. (I've had to ASK them to give an attempt with an X-Bow's Acid bolts to save the 25MP it takes to dispel. Acid bolt's over-write Def Up.)

You'll concede this one, but not the status bolts and arrows?

Have you seen an angon miss often? No. Will you see a status bolt miss often. Unless it's a rng or /rng, yes.

But all of this doesn't matter. You've lost the very foundation of the argument's you've thrown into this thread.

You began with the meletard approach on how impossible it was for a RDM to melee and not bring the Exp/Hr down.

You harped on how a RDM could never compare up to the damage as a 2k SATADE and high end Slugwinders.

In the end you make blanket generalizations on how no melee rdm is ever a good one and say that all you can do is laugh at them and walk away. (But you've yet to walk away...)

Now get this -

I make the slightest comment on how melee's really don't support each other in their role, and then you suddenly try to cram alternative tactics down my throat. Tactics that, form the very same viewpoint you were preaching earlier, are just has hampering to a party if used incorrectly.

Do you honestly believe that I do not support alternative playstyles that have melee classes playing a more supportive role? My linkshell leader is a 75 static pld/whm for crying out loud. Of course I support more party-orientated play.

But I was throwing the BS perspective you have right back at you. How can you preach that a RDM cannot/should not be able to assist their parties Via meleeing if the situation allows for it, yet stand adamantly behind A thf spamming status bolts or a DRG/WHM active in a party, or even a Beastmaster in a party at all?

Hybrid RDM is no different from a drg/whm, or a THF who caps his Marksmanship. A Healing Wylvren (Hybrid Wylvren's are nice, but the curing aspect relies on such low hit points that it's hard to get it to proc.) setup may harm an exp party if it is in the wrong situation, cause it harm's a Dragoons Damage spikes. A Thf who spams bolts to make up for his shotty ranged skill will not have his TP up for SATA timer.

It's the same concept!


You complain that we're not thinking of the "Party First". Let me clear that up.

Every single rdm that has contributed in this thread worth a damn has done so from a Backline RDM perspective, including me.

What - you think I run around all day in a scorpion harness?

The idea of this discussion is to re-evaluate the possibilities of a support-orientated Hybrid style Red Mage when calculating in the new gear, spells, party camps, and job abilities that have been introduced over the past few years.

The consensus is, (with the exception of one hot headed - borderline trolling Cor.) is that it can be done, provided the circumstances are correct. This is true for any alternative method, including DRG/WHM.

Tell me, what leg do you have to stand on, reversing your argument so easily like you just did? Keep in mind, Drg/whm was laughed at too for party use once, and still gets laughed at if it's in the wrong situation.

I can't speak for other RDMs, but I am content going soloing when I want to get some sword action in. I'm very good at soloing for exp. However, if I can support my party by using my sword or knife, especially if I have an opportunity to do so that will Save me MP over magic bursting, or better, assist when Magic Bursting is no longer an option; I'm going to not only want to, I'm going to want to know how to be at my best doing it.


What is your reason for continuing in this conversation BBQ? You've said it yourself you cannot convince a melee rdm anything; why are you trying? These forums more than any have the sense and intelligence to make their own decisions without you having to nay-say every word posted in support of a Hybrid style RDM.

I can only conclude that you're trolling, trying desperately to gain some satisfaction in proving you are somehow 'better' than the people here having gathering data and evaluating possibilities.

If you truly wish to contribute, dust off Red Mage, skill up that dagger, and go out there yourself. Try to figure out how difficult or easy it is to peg an Evisceration before any one of those high-end weaponskills to produce more damage. See the limits of how much you can support while front-lining, figure out what merits or gear swaps would help out in those situations.

What we're wanting is data and theory to evolve the function as far as it can go currently, not hear someone whining on old arguments on how it 'shouldn't' be done. Tell that to the Pld/Whm who secures his hate without provoke, by providing a healing service to his party better than the class ever could /war. (Works wonders in Dynamisis btw.) He pushed himself beyond more ridicule than you could ever take, and wound out on top. Now people are asking him how he did it and what approaches he made.

You're arguments are old. They were over-stated before this thread was even started, and are being disproved as you try to keep preaching.

RDM's are hitting a rut when it comes to certain situations in the new areas which aren't very good for a blackline caster, or that are going so well, our current methods of contribution simply arn't being needed. We are looking for another means of support by looking back at what we've chastised and neglected earlier in the game's history.

Help out, or Butt out.

[Murphie]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Well said, Hyrist. I would have said the same thing, but every time I post BBQ accuses me of trolling. His friend Kettle told me he does that a lot.

[Celeal]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Please stay on the topic. This is a thread about how can RDMs support their party using his melee attack. In other words, RDM is present in all parties within this discussion. If the Knight Crawler in level 55 party is using Cocoon and a RDM is in the party, which tool is the 1st choice of taking care of Cocoon? Acid Bolts?

[Murphie]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

We're too busy meleeing to use Dispel.

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Well, as a list of things that can dispell, you have Magic Finalle, Blank Gaze, Geist Wall, Dark Shot, and Dispel.

As far as removing Cocoon though, if you can get a person who can reliably land an Acid Bolt right after Cocoon, then for all means have them do in instead of you. That way, not only are you sparing Mp or Time on the backliner, but you're also inflicting Defence down, which helps out entirely more for less cost.

When I leveled thf, I used Status Bolts and geared/food for ranged accuracy to mimic the debuffing aspect of my RDM. (I swapped Dex/Agi for SATA) It was a subjob so testing out something new and fun was worthwhile.

However, Dispel is more reliable, more accurate in most cases, and a THF that specializes in status bolts isn't something you'll see often at all. Rng's only bring them along provided that they are using a X-Bow to begin with.

Back to the topic as per request...

In earlier levels, a RDM's options for providing a level 2 skillchain as an opener get rather limited. Infact, it's narrowed down to pretty much two senerios.

We can Open Gravitation, and Fusion.

Basically that limits our partners to Dragoon and Monk respectively.

We can close for Fusion, Distorion and Framentation*
(Fragmentation requires an AoE ws, Circle Blade)

However the issue of this is simply between 50 and 64ish we REALLY lack the damage weapons to make any strong closes, not to mention RDM's lack in innate str keeps the Skillchain damage low, making your only contribution really being DoT and the 30% increase in assisting someone else's nuke.

It's this level gap that really causes the whole backline only mentality.

Fortunately the major focus on this game is 65+ content, in which at that point a RDM can eek their way into boosting their (and inadvertantly other party member's) damage through various means.

One of which is SELR Vopral Blade, which can deal a decent amount of damage as a closer. This, as well as Absorb MND which is available at 64 (very good for spell potency, if you stack the INT and Darkness+ to make it stick.) Provides significant enough assistance to help remove a RDM away from the nuking focused damage methods. As levels progress, more Absorb Agi and absorb Vit become available to assist the party's damage further.

However, a RDM's assistance via meleeing really does not start to become easy enough for it to be more acceptable untill a RDM has access to the quested wepon skills (72) Once that happens, situations are so prime for a RDM to do so that it is not really a matter of difficulty, rather one of practicality. (getting the gear, using it in the right situations, etc.)

But from 51-64, even in my perspective, those should be the levels where RDM's experiment with elemental staffs, nuking assistance, etc. to see if that style is for them, and to assist their party the best. If anything with weaponry, skill up parties and soloing in those levels are a prime source of getting ideas on how monsters evolve and get progressively more difficult in normal areas, to give you an idea of why backline RDMs are so efficient to be a staple.

[Kirsteena]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

I have to say that reading this whole thread has been fascinating.

I was 75 long before ToAU came out. I'm stuck in the rdm is a backline job mentality. Blame it on my age (no, don't or I might have to hurt you). However, I am glad to see alternate thinking coming out. ToAU has changed the game immeasureably, why not rdm become the jack of all trades that SE rams down our throats that we are.

My only comment is lawlz at the high chain mentality. When I merit with my ls, we have generally a traditional, non-burn set up (nin, mnk, war, whm, rdm, brd was our last one, but we have done other stuff, including me main healing - who wants to merit is the shout, and we take whoever) and still get 15k, running up to 20k an hour. Highest chain was 22. lolpuks and imps is all I can say. Oh, and I never need to take a knee either, and I am an elvaan. Much to convert recast merits.

[hongman]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

What defines a "burn party" as opposed to a "traditional" one? I thought a burn party was with 4 or 5 x melee and 1 or 2 healer/puller/support.

In the case that Kirst said, NIN MNK WAR WHM RDM BRD that, to me, looks like a normal party setup - but I am, regretfully, still very new to this game.

So is there something that defines a burn party I am missing? And when am I going to see 10, 15, 20k an hour parties??!!

[Mhurron]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

What defines a "burn party" as opposed to a "traditional" one? I thought a burn party was with 4 or 5 x melee and 1 or 2 healer/puller/support.
In the case that Kirst said, NIN MNK WAR WHM RDM BRD that, to me, looks like a normal party setup - but I am, regretfully, still very new to this game.

Ya that's pretty much a traditional party.

And when am I going to see 10, 15, 20k an hour parties??!!

When you're old enough.

Na, 70+ when you start tagging along with merit parties for EXP in ToAU.

[hongman]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

I am still amazed there are zones you can chain 100's in without running out of mobs

Anyway, back on topic!

[Kirsteena]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

You have to get them while they are quiet, or else everyone goes there. Thickets and Mire no thanks...