RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

[tdh]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

why not both? fight when he can rest when he needs.

Take BLU for example, i've seen a good number of BLU's that will skip a fight or so just to get MP Back. RDM cant do that? ...... They can

EDIT: just realized why your talking so much hate on rdm, cuz you quit rdm at 65 and it was probably your first job and you realized you are going to chicken out and lv another job to fight maat with,

Putting aside your attacking tone, I do take issue with the resting part. The only point a RDM should be taking a knee is when there's flat out downtime. If you're running outta MP before Convert is up, you're over extending yourself, and with out a doubt your going to be hurting your party.

Melee all you want, but you have to manage your MP to coincide with Convert. As soon as you have to /heal you're not providing any sort of DD support, and a bad AoE followed by a big Crit can drop a member who now, most likely, will have to "eat" a R1.

The /healing part is why I think I've only ever Meripo'd with one BLU. That could also be because they have no Category 2 Merits, but I think it's more due to their MP sponge nature, and 4~5MP/tick just isn't good enough for their kind of MP consumption.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

and on the subject on party support, why have i never seen a COR "Ice Shot" Paralyze? or "Earth Shot" Slow?

I haven't leveled COR, but I'd imagine that's because they'd want to save it for light and dark shots for sleep and dispel, since they share the same /recast timer. (I think... ^_^; )

Why do you bring this up? What does the COR's you've played with have to do with RDM melee'ing? Or has anything to do with Omgwtfbbqkitten, for that matter, unless you've partied with his COR?

Hmm? because it doesnt do dmg? so that means your more interested in saving that split second to get TP other then make it where para will con in more....
....think before you talk plz? Kthxbye

EDIT: just realized why your talking so much hate on rdm, cuz you quit rdm at 65 and it was probably your first job and you realized you are going to chicken out and lv another job to fight maat with,

Bizarre and unnecessary personal insults. =/

[WishMaster3K]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

I just wanted the kiddies to play nice while I was away.

More info when I get the chance to play tomorrow. Try not to kill each other.

[Lmnop]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

I seem to remember a great deal of RDM conversations where they were talking about gear vs naked efficiency. And how you barely lose anything for all the gear/merits you put into your abilities...

I know that was in particular referring to enfeebling accuracy. You can honestly come out wearing AF and naked in the other 11 slots and enfeeble with practically the same accuracy. Granted, that was weapons on sky and other such mush, not Imps who love to resist stuff.

Point is, if "capped effectiveness" really is being reached, maybe RDMs in merit point parties can stand to strip down their builds of excess. You know... have some inventory again.

----

Going back like 4 pages where the fighting was heaviest, I would like to state that Bbq's comparison to war tanking really is accurate. You guys were looking too far into the example. The fact is, they're both things that could be happening but they won't because the community won't let them.

And Celeal, your observation that player skill cannot help war/mnk avoid damage is quite profound. One cookie for you.

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

The fact is, they're both things that could be happening but they won't because the community won't let them.

Then at least we can agree that these aspects CAN be done and it is more of an issue of convincing those who would be more hesitant to the change.

If anything that brings up the importance of making a guide more. When the guide can be constructed in such a way to help bring up overall performances of those who are experimenting with this concept, those performances will speak for themselves in an argument.

In the end the only way to open up the lock-down on these tactics is on a case to case basis. General overviews will not be sufficient enough to prove or convince anything in either case, thus the dead-end arguing between BBQ an the majority of the posters.

I've done a brief search of items myself, (checked my own inventory) and noticed that a RDM can swap in/out as much as 36 Accuracy without even touching any of the gear that shows up in model. This is good cause Swapping models constantly while front-lining may get disorientating for a Hybrid type. And may also help with streamlining certain macros and spells.

I'll be researching some food options that are not always a common site to see if there are any good hybrid foods out there to assist with a more rounded goal. I don't expect anything stellar, but a little bit of help all around would be a best option for a RDM using this tactic.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

EDIT: just realized why your talking so much hate on rdm, cuz you quit rdm at 65 and it was probably your first job and you realized you are going to chicken out and lv another job to fight maat with,

BRD was my first job to 75, I beat Maat as BRD. I took up RDM when a static I had intended for my DRG was struggling to find a competent party support job. Whenever we did have a RDM or BRD, they never dispelled, had an underlevelled sub or went queeny the moment things didn't go their way. That or they were chronically AFK while seeking PT. We spent weeks trying to find a good RDM or BRD until I bit the bullet.

I figured I would be the best choice to fill the support role given my experience as a BRD. As much as I wanted to level DRG, I valued the goals of my friends as well, so it wasn't a hard choice to make.

I grinded hard from 24-59 in roughly two week's time - never missing a spell or vital piece of equipment.

That static fell apart and I had no real interest in continuing RDM at that point, it was discouraging to grind so hard on a job to get it caught up, only to be ditched by those "friends" after a few levels of staticing.

In that static, I wasn't expected to be a main healer and I don't like to main heal. Since I was not willing to accept the terms of potentially being a main healer, I left RDM where you see it now. I think if one is not willing to embrace the full scope of their responsibilities that they should not level the job in question. Its easy to play a refresh monkey to 75, but I have more respect for RDM, BRD and COR than that.

Your responsibility to a party is far greater than your own personal interests. But then, I've said something like that countless times here already. Guess that makes me a real big "RDM Hater."

[Mhurron]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Point is, if "capped effectiveness" really is being reached, maybe RDMs in merit point parties can stand to strip down their builds of excess. You know... have some inventory again.

Don't tease me like that.

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

BBQ I came to about the same problem you did, but a different solution.

While occasionally I do accept the cure tank responsibility, mainly I keep the aspect of "Main Healing" in outright protest. Players who invite me as a red mage get told immediately "I suck at main healing, get someone else to take the brunt of it, and I'll help" You'd be supprised what weight a Red Mage has in controlling the ultimate strategic outcome of a party. More often than not I'll get what I want, even if it takes some bending.

If not, Red Mages can solo very well with the right setup and incentive, which is where I get my most sword-time in. I've got no problem exping slower for love and respect for the job.

While it may seem an impossible task, I am in no way daunted by the difficulties I face in changing the perspective of the melee-orientated party (Face it, melee's think they run the game.) a little.

I'm not doing this out of selfishness, but rather out of love of the class. I know that it is capable of assisting a party using it's sword or dagger. If it is done properly it can help as well as backlineing, which would do well seeming certain circumstances are bad for nuking. Assisting with the variety and power that is the evolution of the Red Mage job class is what I think the least I can do to help out the class and community I've been enchanted by since my first days of the game.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

BBQ I came to about the same problem you did, but a different solution.

While occasionally I do accept the cure tank responsibility, mainly I keep the aspect of "Main Healing" in outright protest. Players who invite me as a red mage get told immediately "I suck at main healing, get someone else to take the brunt of it, and I'll help" You'd be supprised what weight a Red Mage has in controlling the ultimate strategic outcome of a party. More often than not I'll get what I want, even if it takes some bending.

I didn't go RDM by personal desire, but by the desire to help friends. Once that static fell apart, I lost all real incentive I had to level the job. I mean, I had postponed my plans as DRG for these guys and graciously did so. I had no further obligations to be a RDM at that point. And once COR was announced, that pretty much clinched it - SE had added Gambler to FFXI, my favorite job class. No reason to stay with RDM

I know what my potentials are and what I can do for a PT, so to seek as RDM in any circumstance and deny PTs a function I could fill doesn't seem fair to that PT. Better I just not level the job at all and level a job where I am willing to meet all my potential.

I think its abusive to take a luxury invite job and use it as a gambit to play the way you want when you can fufill other potentials. As I said earlier, COR is luxury invite, but not a luxury job like BRD and RDM. I pay to support (Elemental cards for QD), I pay to DD (bullets), so I have a real good argument to play how I want.

[Murphie]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

I won't refuse any role in a party as RDM, provided the party setup allows for it. If I'm going to be stretched too far past my limits as a healer, then I'm going to ask for a backup healer to help lighten the load a bit -- but I don't mind it under normal circumstances.

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

I think its abusive to take a luxury invite job and use it as a gambit to play the way you want when you can fufill other potentials. As I said earlier, COR is luxury invite, but not a luxury job like BRD and RDM. I pay to support (Elemental cards for QD), I pay to DD, so I have a real good argument to play how I want.

I played the game to play a variable job class and function in a means to be variable. Not to be an imitation healer for the majoirty of my game career.

Is it any less right for me to say "Hey, this is how I play my game." I'm not being rude about it, and I do sometimes make comprimises, but doing what I wish is going to have me preforming better at it, then attempting something begrugedly.

I've always been a fan of Hybrid jobs and 1h Sword classes. Back when the game started, Red Mage and Paladin was my only option, and I diddn't like the concept of "tank". Now? Blue Mage has come up, and Paladin has gotten better. I'm inclined to specialize in those three jobs, which is forutnate because the merits work well together. (Sword Skill, MP, MND, Crit-hit.)

But in the end, no matter what job I play, I'll play in a style that suits me, as best as I can. If it somehow harms the party, then I won't be a part of that party. I know when to stay back and solo, and I'm capable of soloing on pretty much any job I play.


Now when I get invited as a rdm to a party, they know the issues before I accept the invite. I'm not forcing them to do anything, cause they are quite capable of partying without me. There are White Mages and even sometimes Summoners cappbile of supporting a main healing role, as well as other RDMs.

And it's not as if I am not flexable, but for any job class, especially support, if you do not take a stand for yourself at some point, you WILL be taken advantage of. I learned that the hard way. So it's a give and take situation. I I feel as if I'm being imposed on, I'll barter. I do that with any job I play.

[BurningPanther]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

I didn't go RDM by personal desire, but by the desire to help friends. Once that static fell apart, I lost all real incentive I had to level the job. I mean, I had postponed my plans as DRG for these guys and graciously did so. I had no further obligations to be a RDM at that point. And once COR was announced, that pretty much clinched it - SE had added Gambler to FFXI, my favorite job class. No reason to stay with RDM
I know what my potentials are and what I can do for a PT, so to seek as RDM in any circumstance and deny PTs a function I could fill doesn't seem fair to that PT. Better I just not level the job at all and level a job where I am willing to meet all my potential.
I think its abusive to take a luxury invite job and use it as a gambit to play the way you want when you can fufill other potentials. As I said earlier, COR is luxury invite, but not a luxury job like BRD and RDM. I pay to support (Elemental cards for QD), I pay to DD (bullets), so I have a real good argument to play how I want.

By that same token, it might be considered abusive to play a luxury job too far out of it's position. RDM was never intended to main heal. It can, but it should never be the first thing everyone looks for, which is exactly what happens. I can fill other potential roles, but I don't have to, and if those roles are filled already, nothing wrong in filling a melee role, which also contributes to the party.
It's not abusive to assert your intentions. Hyrist pointed out the arm-bending that has to be done for a RDM not to have to main heal or solely backline in a party, but I don't think that's necessarily abusive or uncouth. It simply making your way. Others do it every time they say "You main heal, k?"
If I gotta threaten the party with looking for another to get my way, so be it. I'm also not at all above dumping off a particularly indignant or otherwise presumptuous party in favor soloing. Sure, it's slow, but I can do it alone, and they can't.

Unlike you, I am a RDM main. I leveled the job not for the desire of others, but for my own fun. Seeing as how this is the job I intend to see to the end, I wanna play it from every angle I dare, not just the way that pleases everyone else. I pay to enfeeble, I pay to support, I pay to nuke, I pay to heal, and i pay to melee, all in moderation as comes with the job. Wishmaster and Hyrist have introduced a critically thought out manner in which the last portion might be presented to a group setting usefully, and I see nothing wrong with it being explored by every RDM.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

It's not abusive to assert your intentions. Hyrist pointed out the arm-bending that has to be done for a RDM not to have to main heal or solely backline in a party, but I don't think that's necessarily abusive or uncouth. It simply making your way. Others do it every time they say "You main heal, k?"

If I gotta threaten the party with looking for another to get my way, so be it. I'm also not at all above dumping off a particularly indignant or otherwise presumptuous party in favor soloing. Sure, it's slow, but I can do it alone, and they can't.

If you make the search comment that you're not going to main heal, that's one thing, but the moment you seek without that expressed, you've mislead players when they invite you with the intention of main heal. Doesn't matter if you're RDM, SMN or BLU, doesn't matter that you're "not built to main heal." You can and people will invite you for that purpose at times.

I'm not saying let a PT walk all over you, but if you're going to play how you want, don't mislead people at the outset or try to twist to PT structure after invited to get out of something you don't want to do. I don't think its fair for, say, a BRD to tell a PT leader to kick a PLD just because it'd be easier to work with a NIN tank. That is abusive, a primadonna attitude and partially why RDM and BRD get stuck with such a stereotype.

If you put up your flag, without any disclaimer, be prepared to play on the PT's terms.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

If you make the search comment that you're not going to main heal, that's one thing, but the moment you seek without that expressed, you've mislead players when they invite you with the intention of main heal.

Umm. Mislead means you put the wrong idea into other people's head. If all one has is a seek flag up, that's not a whole lot of manipulation.

Given that the LFG RDM can't exactly dictate whether the inviting party already has a WHM or not, he can't control or predict the intention of the party leader. It would be inconsiderate of a RDM not wanting to main heal not express that before joining party, just as same as it would be for a party leader not to make clear that is the expectation before /pcmd add RDM/BLMplayer.

If you put up your flag, without any disclaimer, be prepared to play on the PT's terms.

You're overstating your case--while it's certainly incumbent upon a player to make clear what he won't do that's frequently expected of his job, the parties should make reasonable accommodations as well.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Umm. Mislead means you put the wrong idea into other people's head. If all one has is a seek flag up, that's not a whole lot of manipulation.

People will assume you'll main heal if you don't state otherwise these days. Its seldom I PT without a RDM as main healer. I've been invited without being told before, its not uncommon. I might not have misled them by my own intent, but not making my position clear at the outset and then objecting to main heal would be considered misleading since I consented to join.

You're overstating your case--while it's certainly incumbent upon a player to make clear what he won't do that's frequently expected of his job, the parties should make reasonable accommodations as well.

PTs don't always have that luxury where support classes are concerned. If a RDM is invited, there are no WHMs or other jobs that can heal and RDM refuses to main heal, the party may be forced to disband due to lack of willing healers.

That may be fine for the RDM, he can always get another PT easily, but don't think for a second others won't resent you for taking advantage of that fact at their expense.