RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Did you guys see my parse? I parsed 80% on an Imp, with 252 sword skill, 117 dagger (forgot I was subbing Hornet Needle) and I wasn't even wearing ACC gear... I had like +11 ACC and a Squid Sushi.

Imagine if I had a few easy to obtain pieces of gear:
Pahluwan Body (or SH) +10
Mermans Gorget (or Chiv Chain) +5
Life Belt +10
Vendor Slops +3

That's +28 from gear you find in the trash.

Not to mention that on our JSE has +5 from hands and feet, bringing the total to +33.

And rings haven't even been factored. I have a Shikaree ring for +2. I could get two Snipers for +10.

+43 acc, with B skill and Squid sushi. I'd most likely parse in the low 90s on VTs.

Keeping in mind spells to be cast and such,
WSing every other fight is highly likely.

So many pieces of gear afford MAB... Yigit Turban, Zenith Mitts, Relic Feet, Moldy Earring....

And RDMs use macros like they're going out of style. I don't want to toot my own horn, but I'm one of the few ppl who could pull something like this off.

All the speculative arguments are nothing but raw numbers being crunched favorably.

My view on Convert is this: if you aren't out of MP next time your Convert is up, you're wasting MP.

With my timer down to 8:20, I have more MP than I know what to do with. Especially if I open, what's stopping me from MBing off Light or Darkness?

It's all about variety, and RDMs have been pigeon-holed into a certain caste.

You guys see that RDM melee Maat? Holy hell, that guy sucked. But he still did it.

I see a lot of vids, and especially when I team up with other RDMs I notice.... many ppl don't know wth to do with a sword.

Hyrist wants to write a guide, so I'm collecting info. That simple.

Thank you. I find this rather fascinating.

If your parser results are applied to actual application in game and a person can play RDM while still doing their main job and they can keep a "reasonable amount" of xp/hour still going, then I think its wonderful. /bravo

In the face of social stigma, "glorified conversational supposition," and ignorance, you can verifiably say you did a great job at dissproving the myriad of trolls that lurk about mmorpg forums with self-gratification on their mind. I think its great.

Now, I won't dwell any longer on this thread, because I've read through the majority of what I wanted to read that was worth it and have came to the conclusion: RDM melee is viable and should be supported.

Now, with that said....

I think the attitude presented by the main proponent to the idea of RDM melee is -quite- destable and their practices were, on this thread, diplorable. Of such, I am rather dissapointed.

I will say however, what comes around goes around. In any human being's attempt to gain a form of prideful vanity and use intellectual bullyingism to circumvent tactful, intelligent, thoughtful conversation, can be guaranteed that ultimately the end will result with the face of the vain being smashed to the floor by the truth of factual evidence and marred.

We have yet to see parse results or actual evidence showing that it -wouldn't- work. And no, such information is not rendered invalid as a request.

We have seen alot of fluff and hot air. Lol ... and everyone knows how harmless children can be when they are upset.

[Mouser]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

IF they ever use it in a party. In a burn? Ha, /sam or /nin onry. In a party, tack on /war and /thf as possible combos. Try to get a Drg to sub whm in a party? They'll laugh at you.

Just as a completely random aside, I've gone DRG/WHM and using Staff several times in merit parties to help support heal, each time when we had no refresher to allow the WHM to rest safely during fights. No accuracy issues with my B- staff skill, modest +ACC gear (+21) and sushi. The downgrade in my damage output is offset by greater party endurance, since I can basically spam Curaga and get my MP back with Spirit Taker, let alone using Healing Breath if anyone's HP somehow falls below 50% (hint: PLD/WHM can do this too, mostly ).

Just last night I was in a party in Cadaerva Mire as DRG/WHM alongside a SAM/THF, DRK/THF, RNG/NIN, NIN/WAR and WHM/BLM, and the only thing slowing us down was lack of mobs. Imps were annoying, but the WHM was there to Silena us, and I was there to help heal Cursed Sphere damage (and no, my Wyvern didn't die a single time, as I could Spirit Link freely and heal myself ).

As for RDM melee, all I can add is that merit fights are so easy and fast that there is no point in enfeebling. By the time the RDM is done casting Para/Slow/Dia, the fight's practically over. As long as there's someone else to help carry the load (or in the case of Imps, stay safely outside Silence range) I don't see a problem. Particularly at the Nyzul Isle -> Thickets camp with Greater Colbri and Bugards. I wouldn't kick a RDM for not meleeing there, but I'd really wonder why they weren't.

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

There's nothing implicitly wrong with meleeing. If you can do it while doing everything else, then more power to you.

Personally, I find gearswapping into and out of melee mode to be exceedingly annoying and a significant drain on my attention. It takes up attention span that I'd rather be spending watching to make sure my Bard or Corsair puller isn't in trouble because of a resisted Lullaby.

We can talk all we like about how much effect the extra damage from melee is, but does it outweigh having more reliable Sleeps and Paralyzes? Also, if you're eating melee food, you're undoubtedly losing something from Convert efficiency.

Now, in a party where MP is plentiful (DD DD DD RDM WHM BRD), then this might work since you won't need to spend a lot of MP on cures, but let's be honest. With Joyeuse or Justice Sword, it would still take more time to land several hundred points of damage in melee than casting a single Blizzard III.

That, more than anything, defines why RDMs generally don't melee. It's not that it can't be done; there just isn't a whole lot of convincing reasons to do so when there are so many better ways to contribute to party efficiency and damage.


Icemage

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Thanks to Icemage, I don't feel entirely like a Too Weak RDM for being afraid to divide my attention and mess up something by melee'ing.

(Except Greater Colibri--need to whack those to stay awake, especially in that two RDM party I had a month and half ago...)

[Murphie]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

I don't think anyone in this thread is advocating shirking your primary responsibilities as a RDM.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Please stay on the topic. This is a thread about how can RDMs support their party using his melee attack. In other words, RDM is present in all parties within this discussion. If the Knight Crawler in level 55 party is using Cocoon and a RDM is in the party, which tool is the 1st choice of taking care of Cocoon? Acid Bolts?

My comments pertained to an entirely incorrect statement that is relevant to this topic. He said melee do nothing to increase the damage or endurance of the PT. That is false.

If we have a RDM and RNG against Knight Crawlers using Cocoon, its not a matter of "Dispel or Acid Bolt?" The RNG would have placed an acid bolt at the start of the fight and before WS/SC. RDM would dispel as Cocoon came up. Both are supporting the damage output of the PT. I would be a poor RNG if I just overlooked the opportunity to help increase the damage output of my PTs, especially when acid bolts proc so often.

No one may complain that a RNG isn't using acid bolts like a RDM might not be dispelling, but that dosn't change the fact that RNG can do more to support a PT than just pincushion a mob with ammo.

PT support does not fall solely on a WHM, SMN, RDM, BRD or COR, everyone in a PT can do things to be more efficient and the PTs that do that are by far the best and most successful ones. PTs can get by just fine without RDM, BRD or COR, you're not needed, just very nice to have around. Don't let the job get to your head, every job can do something to support a PT.

[Celeal]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

My comments pertained to an entirely incorrect statement that is relevant to this topic. He said melee do nothing to increase the damage or endurance of the PT. That is false.

If we have a RDM and RNG against Knight Crawlers using Cocoon, its not a matter of "Dispel or Acid Bolt?" The RNG would have placed an acid bolt at the start of the fight and before WS/SC. RDM would dispel as Cocoon came up. Both are supporting the damage output of the PT. I would be a poor RNG if I just overlooked the opportunity to help increase the damage output of my PTs, especially when acid bolts proc so often.

No one may complain that a RNG isn't using acid bolts like a RDM might not be dispelling, but that dosn't change the fact that RNG can do more to support a PT than just pincushion a mob with ammo.

PT support does not fall solely on a WHM, SMN, RDM, BRD or COR, everyone in a PT can do things to be more efficient and the PTs that do that are by far the best and most successful ones. PTs can get by just fine without RDM, BRD or COR, you're not needed, just very nice to have around. Don't let the job get to your head, every job can do something to support a PT.

Yes, I agree that everyone in a PT can do things to be more efficient and the PTs that do that are by far the best and most successful ones.

If there is a RNG in party, and if and only if the RNG is using xbow, he has no reason not use Acid Bolt to help himself and the party.

However...

I am not sure about other DD players. When I level my melee DD jobs, before I join the party, I assume that I will be able to fullfill my DD role:

1. Without any buff from BRD, COR or SMN. (I don't assume BRD or COR or SMN will be present in the party as a base for gear/food selection)
2. Without any Haste.
3. Without any Acid Bolts, Dia, etc. (I don't factor in those when I choose my gear/food....)

On the other hand, I do expect Dispel (or other spell/tools that can do the same task) and Erase/status-removal (if situation applies) from party. I also expect the party keep me alive.

If the RNG does not use Acid Bolts in my Party, it is fine with me.
If the RDM fails to Dispel Cocoon, then we have a problem.

From my experience, I feel that other DD feel the same way too. We often saw:

/p { Dispel } { Please }

Not Acid Bolt or Dia, etc.

Added:
To me, stuff like Acid Bolt is a bonus. If RDM is in party, I expect him to Dispel and Refresh, just as I expect WHM to cure/raise/status-removal, PLD use his MP and tools to tank, NIN use his tool to do his job, and DD deals great damage w/o Acid Bolt!

For this topic, I also consider RDM melee as a bonus, not a requirement. If the RDM can peform his job while melee, it is cool with me. If the RDM hurt exp. because of melee, he should go to the backline. I do not expect a party needs RDM to melee in order to function in the first place.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

To me, stuff like Acid Bolt is a bonus. If RDM is in party, I expect him to Dispel and Refresh, just as I expect WHM to cure/raise/status-removal, PLD use his MP and tools to tank, NIN use his tool to do his job, and DD deals great damage w/o Acid Bolt! .

It might not be expected of a melee to support, but they can still do it and those that do are better for it. Mages can show up in level 1 RSE because and people will let them becauses a person can exploit the role in such away, but I'm not going to constantly cut corners on my jobs just because others are none-the-wiser or don't care. The DD might be fine without the acid bolts, but the fact remains the DD will be better with the acid bolts procing.

When I come to a PT as a RDM, BRD or COR, I may expect everything from Dispel to Refresh to ride on me, but that should never really have to be the case, I don't like how these jobs are used as crutches for EXP PTs who refuse to cover the possible angles to support their PT

Just as Icemage and you have said with RDM melee, you both believe you should look at the PTs performance vs your support before considering moving to the frontline and, addtionally, you should be able to weigh whether nuking (for MB or not) and support is helping before you even consider melee.

But you can also anticipate the scenarios before you join a PT, melees can do the same.

That's why I leer at the PLD or DRK that never has the Parade Gorget when they're of the level to use it. That's why we frown on WHMs who don't get Erase at the proper level or NINs that level to 40+ without Utsusemi: Ni. Can I still get an invite as NIN without an Empress Hairpin? Sure, I can. But should I if I know it helps me do my job and addtionally save a mage MP? I absolutely should, 75 will still be there for me one day, no need to go without it.

[Celeal]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

That's why I leer at the PLD or DRK that never has the Parade Gorget when they're of the level to use it. That's why we frown on WHMs who don't get Erase at the proper level or NINs that level to 40+ without Utsusemi: Ni. Can I still get an invite as NIN without an Empress Hairpin? Sure, I can. But should I if I know it helps me do my job and addtionally save a mage MP? I absolutely should, 75 will still be there for me one day, no need to go without it.

Actually, I don't entirely agree. There are nothing else close to what Erase or Utsusemi: Ni can do, therefore, it should be a top priority.

Is Empress Hairpin a good way to go for NIN? Sure. Is Empress Hairpin the only best way to go, and other alternatives are garbage? It is not true. Evasion may save a mage's MP, so do better hate control, higher damage output, better successful rate of landing Ninjutsu, Haste, etc. (Hint: Evasion works well only if it has an impact on the mob, or the mob is attacking the NIN...)

Very often there are multiple ways to handle the same task. I suggest you to also try or examine other alternatives first before you form a conclusion.

Same mindset can be applied to this RDM Melee topic: Let others try and test this concept first (or try again, since there is so much changes in ToAU) before we disregard it. If it does not work, the test result will prove itself. There are some indication that RDM melee may work, but it does not conclude anything yet. It is too early to disapprove the idea before the trial and error is done.

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Just as Icemage and you have said with RDM melee, you both believe you should look at the PTs performance vs your support before considering moving to the frontline and, addtionally, you should be able to weigh whether nuking (for MB or not) and support is helping before you even consider melee.

But you can also anticipate the scenarios before you join a PT, melees can do the same.

I don't believe anyone here is inclined to put their sword before the party. The idea is to use the sword to aid the party.

I'm also inclined to think that Icemage did not notice the party where I mentioned that it is piratically essential for a RDM to open for about 2-3 skillchains to equate or surpass nuking contributions.

And flatly, free-nuking is a serious waste of MP. Even with Merits, if one doesn't ration their nukes to Bursts, you'll blow your MP pool to hell. You must have a LARGER leeway with MP than that which would allow you to Melee, to be free nuking, and with that level of MP management, a Hybrid RDM could afford to burst occasionally on the Skillchains he creates. So it boils down to tastes on that factor.

I hear what Icemage is saying about gear swaping on how it might be difficult. That was one of the major factors that stilled my public approach on this. However, as of late SE has been quite kind to releace gear that assists both Mage and Melee stats symotaniously. JSE and Morrigan's sets come to mind, especially Morrigan's body.

Now while against gods Skill equipment should be maximised for best accuracy, EXP is simply not the same playing field. Extra Skill gear isn't needed so much, and can be aquired form other sources (Earring, Neck peice, Hat, etc.) which can reduce the amount of gear both overall carried, and swapped.

Additionally, a well known and praticed RDM tactic to maximise stats is to simply have equipment swaps in with spells. So switching to what you need can be a simple as pressing one button to cast, pressing another to reset. Very little distraction is involved once practiced, for me, it is done all the time in my swaps between Int, Mnd, and Convert/MP recovery gear.

But it is good that these things are brought up. The idea of creating a guide is to regard these nuisances and issues to help players work around or beyond them as much as possible. This takes a lot of research and deliberation, honestly, more than one person can handle.

So I put the question to you, what sort of gear pieces can be used for multiple purposes. Peices that might assist meleeing as well as magery, or peices of armor that have strong stats for both inteligence and mnd. Condencing armor peices is an issue for red mages in general, who may already be 60/60 in gear as it is. While some truely wish to maximise out every possible angle, a lot of that causes the same frustrations Icemage states. It works for the mage side as much as it does for Melee.

In the end condensing gear, finding what may be the best 1-2 "all around" items may be most appropriate. This may include more Hybrid-Orientated food. (Though it would pain me to give up my Mushpot.)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

I think the first section of the guide I'd want to read would be the "How to perform primary duties and melee at the same time without missteps for not-so-great (yet) Red Mages" section.

>_>; I'm gonna need that section if I ever want to try to melee during exp parties.

Also, what is roughly the percentage of damages from such a hybrid RDM? I mean, how much from melee, from en-spells, from weaponskills, and from nukes/MB? What kind of figures would make you go "Well, that looks about right."?

[Shinhiryu_Kage]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

There's nothing implicitly wrong with meleeing. If you can do it while doing everything else, then more power to you.

Personally, I find gearswapping into and out of melee mode to be exceedingly annoying and a significant drain on my attention. It takes up attention span that I'd rather be spending watching to make sure my Bard or Corsair puller isn't in trouble because of a resisted Lullaby.

We can talk all we like about how much effect the extra damage from melee is, but does it outweigh having more reliable Sleeps and Paralyzes? Also, if you're eating melee food, you're undoubtedly losing something from Convert efficiency.

Now, in a party where MP is plentiful (DD DD DD RDM WHM BRD), then this might work since you won't need to spend a lot of MP on cures, but let's be honest. With Joyeuse or Justice Sword, it would still take more time to land several hundred points of damage in melee than casting a single Blizzard III.

That, more than anything, defines why RDMs generally don't melee. It's not that it can't be done; there just isn't a whole lot of convincing reasons to do so when there are so many better ways to contribute to party efficiency and damage.
Icemage

The only type of gear swapping I hate is when your swapping out STR equipment before a WS. Having to change 8 pieces of gear can be such a headache. lol

I agree with what you said, fully. However, I can remember being in quite a few couple hundred thousand worth of XP partys in TOAU and just standing there, doing absolutely nothing while a TP-Burn party wailed on spiders and colibri and crawler's from the 50-70. Sometime's, I'd go AFK and come back and no one would wonder where I was or ask if RDM AFK and whatever.

I think it's been established, rather, I hope it has, that you shouldn't lose any effeciency on your play style and maintain your original RDM role if you decide you wish to melee.

I think in those several hundred thousand XP I could have been meleeing to do something else to contribute to the party. In addition, it would have been fun to bust out a 300TP SW as a Galka. But, no, I never did. I've always subscribed to the fact that RDM just -never- melee after a certain point in the career.

I think that idea, while not entirely false, can limit one's fun and in a sense, contribution to a party given certain situations. That's what I originally said about being LV70 and meleeing with a BRD in party.

BBQKitten insinuated some very grotesque and idiotic ideas about a simple phrase I wrote, as well as others, and didn't think to ask any of us first hand what we meant. (Though, I didn't think it was terribly complex.) She started off the thread in a tryannical soap-box approach to how RDM are "backrine onry" and condemned several individuals for trying to think of some other ways to work with time frames in xp parties where we as RDM do absolutely nothing but sit there and watch everyone else xp. (This tends to make me wonder that she doesn't know what we were talking about and she's speaking from fluff and vanity, rather than providing intelligent, worthwhile conversation to the subject.)

Sure, we can throw out nukes, but the point can be argued that, couldn't that MP just have been saved for an emergency if someone suddenly dropped to nothing in health? The other point we have found we're dealing with is that Colibri reflect magic. Sure, you can cast against them but then you're dealing with your tank taking 300-400 damage from Water 3 or something. I don't see the effeciency in that issue. Sure, their blinks can eat it up, sure a pld has tons of HP and you can just cure him. But then you're overspending MP that you shouldn't have and we're back to square one. Ya know?

I'd also like to burst more and I have, in these ToAU parties. But alot of times, when I politely request to burst in party if someone will set up a skillchain, I get a backlash saying "we don't have time, just stand there and heal." It's really a funny, frustrating situation. Why don't melee have time to put together a simple skillchain? Is it because it could take away from their playing experience at the expense of my own?

I don't think its fair to make a job that has so many tools at its disposal and tell that job it can only use a few tools because "it ain't jess don't work like dat here aroun deez parts, ifn u kin understand that sunny." I think, and I speak for most ppl, that's the backlast you get from ppl in game.

So sometimes, you're limited to: standing there, cast Haste/Refresh, Cure when needed, rinse/repeat. I don't mind doing these things -in the least.- I actually enjoy support roles and buffing.

-However-, I enjoy doing other things too. I like the idea that the RDM job is versatile. I like the word versatility. I want to do other things. I should be allowed to do other things if it is done intelligently.

So, from what I read thru this thread and from my own experiences, meleeing is a great idea to support your party in those times when you're doing absolutely nothing else. But, the point I wanted to make, is, like you said IM, if you're dwindling on your original job, you're wasting efficiency and that's not the point. But I wanted to clairify for the community what my original intention was. That's what BBQkitten on a stick did not glean.

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

I think the first section of the guide I'd want to read would be the "How to perform primary duties and melee at the same time without missteps for not-so-great (yet) Red Mages" section.

I fully intend to have a lenghy warning and disclaimer section for this. A lot will be spent clarifying the role of a Hybrid RDM and how it is focused on SUPPORT, not just damage.

However, I need help form Red Mages currently enjoying multiple burns. The more people the better.

There are two major reasons I hesitate to post my own data.

1) I lack gear and or Merits to currently attempt any sort of meleeing in exp. My game time is limited and thus my gil flow. This is the primary reason why I resort to soloing as I can earn gil while pulling together cheep exp.

2) My provocative writing style, as well as my reputation for being an avid supporter of alternative play styles, will lable any raw data I post myself as 'Bias' and possibly 'altered.' I'd rather quote off someone else who may be more creditable than myself.

That being said, I'd like if any rdm who would like to be testing these tactics, especially someone with Joyuse, Evisceration and Savage Blade, to please come froward and offer to help out. I need Phase results and screenshots on a few various strategies.

[Mhurron]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

1) I lack gear and or Merits to currently attempt any sort of meleeing in exp. My game time is limited and thus my gil flow. This is the primary reason why I resort to soloing as I can earn gil while pulling together cheep exp.

While not having appropriate gear can be a problem, I wouldn't hold back just because you haven't got certain merits. Relying on merits would make your findings useless to any RDM who hasn't obtained those merits or hasn't hit 75 yet.

2) My provocative writing style, as well as my reputation for being an avid supporter of alternative play styles, will lable any raw data I post myself as 'Bias' and possibly 'altered.' I'd rather quote off someone else who may be more creditable than myself.

I doubt that there will be any shortage of people trying what you suggest.

[Mikamaru]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

ya kno bbqkitten, have you heard of the RDM JSE at all? its actually fairly nice, you being a rdm and all would know what i'm talking about. it gives magic acc + and acc + which....if you use your brain for a second would say something. magic acc = elemtal staff. not totaly but damn near close enough to not really see that big of a diff with enfebs. you can replace your AF Hat for the Wise cap. Mag acc +5 acc +5. don tneed fast cast if your meleeing. i'm a 75 rdm i melee in burn pt's all the time. even while main healing. why? because it takes pratice to know when you need to drop your sword grab teh dark staff and sit on my taru ass. i pull off on average 700-800 savage blade with gear swap WS macro, yes even as a taru. it takes time and the want to be good at what you do. there are to many rdm's that join any kind of pt's and just refresh everyone...and occ dispel, no one says shit why? because there doing the main thing pple want them for... so why cant you just take a step back and look at the larger pic,

say your rdm is elvaan (lolelf) you think he can do more Damage as back line or front line?

why not both? fight when he can rest when he needs.

Take BLU for example, i've seen a good number of BLU's that will skip a fight or so just to get MP Back. RDM cant do that? ...... They can

Why your taking so much hate out on rdm's i dont kno, but i've been to every Merit camp with rdm and have melee'd efficently /nin and /whm


depending on which WS they need HN or Joy in main hand
teh Turban or wise cap, depending on which i need (Voyer Sallat for ws)
C-Chain
SH or wise body, again depending
wise pants
AF2 boots
Life belt or quick belt(Warwolf for ws)
x2 Ruby rings, x2 snipers, or 1 of each. (both ruby for ws)
Suppy earring for dual wield boots and +5 sword. other earring changes
lighting bow +1 in ranged
Taru RSE2 gloves

when casting any spell i have gear swaps for each of them to better the chance of them sticking MaB for nukes. Enfeeb/int/mnd for enfeeb's cuz for that 1-2 secons your not meleeing anyways so why not change teh gear to make you cast the spell better.


and by one macro bar down and 2 macro's it instanly can change all my gear to my "Mage" gear.

HQ Staff's
Enfebling torque
Enfeebling earring
eaither Healing earring or moldivite
Errant gloves
AF body
AF hat or wise cap, depeing on spell
AF2 boots
Pentitent's rope
Phantom tathlum in ranged
Rainbow Cape +1 or grammery depending on spell being cast(Mag acc for dispel sleep and silence, int/mnd for enfebs and silence(2 macro's depending on what being used for.)

so i can go from eaither a good DD in pt to 2 seconds later a "Normal RDM"



and on the subject on party support, why have i never seen a COR "Ice Shot" Paralyze? or "Earth Shot" Slow? Hmm? because it doesnt do dmg? so that means your more interested in saving that split second to get TP other then make it where para will con in more....


....think before you talk plz? Kthxbye



EDIT: just realized why your talking so much hate on rdm, cuz you quit rdm at 65 and it was probably your first job and you realized you are going to chicken out and lv another job to fight maat with,


fyi RDM Maat 1/1 1min 47 seconds