RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Refrence: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Damage_Types

I stand corrected, there is no mention of accruacy bonus based on damage types. Still, this bonus does indeed help out with DoT and Weaponskill damage, though that is not a major factor in this.

Another tip when I went through looking about weaponskills and how they function, would be the use of elemental neck peices that have reicently been comming out. If a RDM is to contriubte via Melee, it may be prudent to swap in an Earth version of one of these for a bit more assistance.

As Evis, SB and Vorpal Blade all have ties to the earth element this may be something even Soloing RDM's can consider for a useful swap-in.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

These forums are a place for an exchange of information and ideas, not for you to tell US how to play the game we pay for because you wish to follow the stereotypical party mentality that also supports SMN being Main Healers.

I've made the arguement RDM can viably melee under certain conditions, its just that its not viable most of the time due to the structure of the game at present, in addtion to working optimally with other jobs. People seem to be ignoring that part of my statements and zero in purely on my arguments against RDM melee. Biased much?

I think the OP makes a good case, but he also concedes this case isn't made terribly well in ToA areas, which is somthing Hyrist is desparately trying to prove otherwise. Good luck building the TP to do Eviceration, it'll take ya three fights to build the TP if the SAM and WAR don't kill it first.

The only ways you can make RDM viable are in the mose illusionary ways possible. "Make a static" may sound really condescending, but its basically saying to get what you want, you have to build a PT around what you want. Its your time and you're free to play the game as you please, but most people would not want to PT in a less-efficent PT setup and see the melee RDM as a paragon of inefficency.

"Well, that's because they've just PTed with bad ones," you say.

Well, people think every melee RDM is a bad one. It may be a stereotype, but its built on five years of "bad ones." Either its a stereotype or there's five years of good reasons against RDM melee. Due to the game's design and player EXP trends, I'm inclined to believe the latter. And that's why I think some changes should be made to allow RDM to overcome that image.

- More Enspell Damage
- More Mage/Melee hybrid gear at a broader level range. Something nice for BLU, too.
- Access to a little more +hMP gear. Other mages get Seer's, RDM gets jack at present.

You may say you have everything you already need to prove otherwise, but the community isn't going to be convinced until SE tosses them a very enticing incentive to let you melee. It took "Absorb-TP" for the community to realize how good DRKs actually were. Took altering Light and Dark Shot for PTs to figure out how to integrate a COR into PT. Took Refresh for RDM to ever get an invite.

Some might say those things were needed and I could definataly argue otherwise, but these were needed to change the community's attitude, it couldn't be changed on parsers and forum debate alone.

And what needs to happen for RDM also needs to happen for WAR tanking. WAR is easily the most versitile melee class in the game, but WAR is practically forbidden to tank as they once did. For a WAR to tank now, they have to build a static that will agree to the terms and style of a WAR tank.

Is this scenario really any different from what I've said about RDM melee? People would tell me to make a static if I wanted to tank a WAR. Would you?

If so, I can make an arguement against RDM melee.
If not, then you must concede both jobs need to be given a little more so the community will accept these addtional roles from the jobs.

I don't play WAR for the same reason I don't play RDM, I can't get everything I want out of those jobs like I can with others. The current design and player trends make it difficult to play those jobs in the way they could be played. I may press onward with harder jobs like DRG or BST and get extremely rare invites, but at least I still get to play the roles I wish to play most of the time.

I can't put it in more unbiased terms than that. Feel free to dissect and distort what was said in this post. Selectively quote it. Hell, you can just keep ignoring anything I've said. Its just as easy for me to do the same.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

I can't put it in more unbiased terms than that. Feel free to dissect and distort what was said in this post. Selectively quote it. Hell, you can just keep ignoring anything I've said. Its just as easy for me to do the same.

You do that already, so nothing is really going to change then.

And you lost any chance of claiming we ignore anything you said when you went and said 'want to melee? Make a static', so once again get off your high horse please -_-. Doesn't matter if you made a statement claiming RDM can melee under certain conditions, the majority of your post goes along the lines of "If you melee in a party your gimping my EXP, so don't do it."

If we follow your belief that FFXI stereotypes are built on good reasons, then I suppose all 60+ DRG and THF should reroll because they get outclasses by the common melee classes now.

[Celeal]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

It is not fair to compare RDM melee (support) and WAR tanking (main tank) at high levels. If during a battle something is wrong with RDM melee at frontline, the RDM always has an option to put away the sword and go to the backline. Unlike RDM, which has multiple methods to support a party, a main tank in PT usually have no second options if the tanking tactic fails, regardless of WAR main tank, PLD main tank, NIN main tank, or other unconventional tanks.

/off-topic
The shortcoming of WAR/MNK blood tanking is the player behind the WAR/MNK does not have much control over his damage migration. The WAR/MNK can influence his damage taken via gear/food and very limited damage migration tool (like Defender, counterattack, parrying...), the rest is determined externally (healer, party support, etc). However, the WAR/MNK's skill can influence hate control.

On the other hand, PLD and NIN tank is different from WAR/MNK. Besides gear, food and party support, the PLD's skill or NIN's skill is also a deciding factor for damage migration. The inablility for the WAR/MNK's player skill to directly to adjust damage migration is what breaks WAR/MNK tanking at later levels. Defender, Weapon Break, Full Break, etc just won't cut it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

And you lost any chance of claiming we ignore anything you said when you went and said 'want to melee? Make a static', so once again get off your high horse please -_-. Doesn't matter if you made a statement claiming RDM can melee under certain conditions, the majority of your post goes along the lines of "If you melee in a party your gimping my EXP, so don't do it."

This is nice and all, but that's not addressing the question I posed. If a WAR wanted to tank at high level, would you let him? Or would you tell them that by tanking - something they were built to do - they are dragging down the EXP per hour? Would you tell them if they really wanted to tank, that they should make a static?

I would. Utsusemi has broken this game to the point people won't take you as a tank without it or at least the ability to cure yourself. I can't fault them for wanting a PT to be more efficient, no matter how much I may dislike it and want to be a WAR tank.

RDM melee - same thing. RoZ/CoP made it very impractical to melee with High Defense/Evasion mobs. When people stated RDM meleeing gave the mob TP, what they meant was you were making a prolonged fight all the more of a risk. And in ToA with the trend of weak mobs being TP burned that damage is now too insignifigant to stand out against the top DDs.

Given both case, RDM is expected to fall back on their other abilities. You knew there was a chance you'd be asked to main heal from the moment you got a Cure spell. Doesn't matter if you're not the best healer in the world, you can still do it, just as a SMN can or a BLU could.

If we follow your belief that FFXI stereotypes are built on good reasons, then I suppose all 60+ DRG and THF should reroll because they get outclasses by the common melee classes now.

The pissing contest in DD classes will never end. RDM will still get invites and you are not invited to melee, these jobs are invited for melee and their problem really lies in competition. That happens with melee classes in any MMORPG and most seasoned melee accept this as normal. A dedicated player can overcome it.

It is not fair to compare RDM melee (support) and WAR tanking (main tank) at high levels. If during a battle something is wrong with RDM melee at frontline, the RDM always has an option to put away the sword and go to the backline. Unlike RDM, which has multiple methods to support a party, a main tank in PT usually have no second options if the tanking tactic fails, regardless of WAR main tank, PLD main tank, NIN main tank, or other unconventional tanks.

Its entirely fair to compare them. Both jobs are highly versitile, yet are denied functions they could fufill. Both can use a vast array of subjobs and arguably more than any other job can proficiently.

WAR's fallback is their high damage ability with main and subjob abilities - Defender pops to mind, they have lots of hate tools, otherwise WAR would offer little more than Provoke to offer PLD and NIN. PLD's fallback is their ability to Cure, and damage mitigation abilities. NIN's fallback to aiding the PT in enfeebling the mob which stack with other spells. All of these are enmity tools to tank.

Tanking only fails when tanks don't use these fallbacks and melee/mages overplay their role. Tanking is not a job trait, its a player skill and requires a degree of teamwork to make it possible.

[Murphie]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

The more you type, the less you make sense, you know?

[Celeal]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Its entirely fair to compare [rdm and war]. Both jobs are highly versitile, yet are denied functions they could fufill. Both can use a vast array of subjobs and arguably more than any other job can proficiently.

WAR's fallback is their high damage ability with main and subjob abilities - Defender pops to mind, they have lots of hate tools, otherwise WAR would offer little more than Provoke to offer PLD and NIN. PLD's fallback is their ability to Cure, and damage mitigation abilities. NIN's fallback to aiding the PT in enfeebling the mob which stack with other spells. All of these are enmity tools to tank.

Tanking only fails when tanks don't use these fallbacks and melee/mages overplay their role. Tanking is not a job trait, its a player skill and requires a degree of teamwork to make it possible.

WAR main tanking from level 37 to 73 lack the endurance to withstand exp. chain. With all the death and downtime I tried to solo tank as WAR between level 39 to 59, I really do see what is lacking. Yes, WAR can temporary tank when the main tank dies, disconnected, lose hate, or getting the link/pop's attention when the mages trying to sleep the adds, escape, etc.

WAR is a very good "backup" tank.

WAR/NIN solo tank with Utsusemi: Ichi only, is like a NIN/WAR tanking without any Utsusemi: Ni, or a bad NIN/WAR who failed to cast his shadows during battle.

WAR/MNK blood tanking at high levels is like a bad PLD/WAR who does not use his MP to tank.

At low levels, WAR main tank is truely tanking while DD at the same time. From mid~high levels it is not the case. When a high level WAR gear towards damage migration (to a point that has enough impact on damage reduction), or using Defender, etc, his damage output is going to trash can.

My last experience as WAR/MNK main tank at level 58 in Gustav Tunnel is not good at all. With downtime and death (which allowed me to try different food), the best way I managed to came up with after trial and error is:

1. Attack food.
2. Defender all time.
3. Alternate between Aggressor/Dodge and Focus to cover accuracy.
4. Some WAR AF and mix match with Def+/VIT+ and whatever gear available to me at that time (it has been a while since last year, I cannot remember exactly what the gear setup was).
5. I tried both Axe+Shield and G.Axe (Axe, G.Axe, and Shield skill were capped), they gave different favor, but the final result is about the same. (Shield block vs. different Break WS)
6. Provoke -> Boost -> Boost -> Provoke .... (classic WAR/MNK tanking stuff).

Result: Chain #3, then loads of downtime.

Compare to my own PLD and NIN, hate control from my WAR/MNK is not solid. I feel that I need a THF for hate control. For damage migration, honestly I think my skill does not have much to do with it (lack of tools), it is like my life is in my WHM's hand....

To my understanding, this thread is about how RDM can support a PT with melee. WAR change from DD to Tank is switching role. RDM support his party with his sword does not switch role, he is still playing support role in PT. Your comparsion between RDM and WAR, to me, is like asking RDM switch from support role to tanking or DD, which is not what this thread is about.

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

I'm going to answer this quote:

If a WAR wanted to tank at high level, would you let him? Or would you tell them that by tanking - something they were built to do - they are dragging down the EXP per hour?

While this has nothing to do with RDM, I'm going to say yes, I would let them if the situation calls for it. This is because once again you are taking things out of context and trying to use them as a valid argument.

If a warrior is offering to tank, this means there is no tank currently there, and there was not enough melee's or the situation was improper to be creating a burn.

A single warrior may have difficulty tanking on their own, but 2 war/nins dual-tanking can do quite well, especially if there is a Blue Mage there supporting with Head Butt. While this might not be as optimum as a burn, one can still pull decent exp/hr. And decent exp/hr is better than none. Tanks are getting harder to find on the climb to 75, and often one has to be inventive with how certain roles such as healing and tanking are filled in order to keep a party going.

It's amazing how flexible players become when they realize their party is going to disband otherwise.

Now say if I'm in a burn party and the Warrior wants to main-tank. I'm gonna flat out tell him he's inclined to try, but with meleetards overblowing their weapon skills, a Warrior isn't going to be able to secure hate anyways.

A Hybrid RDM isn't changing what he is doing as much as how he is doing it. Sometimes, especially in burns, you simply can't magic burst, or enfeeble as well as you can in balanced parties, things happen too quickly. When this happens you've got three choices.

1. Grit your teeth and just cure-nuke/haste/refresh. However, honestly, every time I get put into this situation, I feel as if I am leeching EXP. There is more that I could be doing if I was geared and prepared to assist with meleeing, and know full well I could do so while still fulfilling my other duties. If anything, my inactivity is causing the EXP/Hr rate to go down.

2. Quit. Either quit main healing for burns, quit burns and stick with statics/semi-statics/blanced parties, or quit RDM all together. You chose the later of all of these.

3. Find other ways of supporting the party. Guess what? That includes dusting off that sword and/or dagger and jumping in. Sure, you wont compare to any dd in the group, but your contributions equate to a high-end DoT that costs very little MP and can occasionally produce a great boost to Damage output by opening a skillchain that wasn't there before.


Like always, trying a new method takes time to refine and you're not going to be able to jump on it willy-nilly and expect to preform the best you could on your first try. Thus the need for a guide.

[Celeal]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

I know adding WAR into this thread is off topic. (i'm sorry )

To me RDM melee-support vs RDM backline-support, is like WAR DD with single handed weapon vs WAR DD with two handed weapon.

Different styles within a single role, that I would consider to be a fair comparsion.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Different styles within a single role, that I would consider to be a fair comparsion.

You've still missed the entire point. They're both jobs that are prohibited by game design and the community to what they could potentialy be doing. Its not a matter of switching role or changing them on the fly, that's just splitting hairs.

RDM can walk up and thwack the mob with his sword, but by the design of the game, he is outclassed entirely by every other melee class and he is not wanted there by his PT members the majority of the time. We'll go into why in a bit.

WAR can tank and return damage really well, but the design of CoP and RoZ veered too extreme to make it viable for WAR to do so past 50. WAR was a defacto tank pre-RoZ, NIN broke it completely, in addtion to the ramp up in mob evasion and defense.

The result? We don't want WARs to tank, even though in some situations they still could do so very well.

OK, back to RDM.

Being able to juggle enfeeb, healing, hasting, MB and being able to melee without being distracted from their support role is not a job trait. It may be a stereotype for you, but its well-established in the experiences of many players that when a support class is invited to fufill a melee or pulling role, it has distracted them from their other duties.

Ever had a BRD that prioritized pulling over what you really invited them to do?
Ever have a COR do the same? They melee and forget to buff and do Quick Draw?
Ever had a RDM melee and forget buffs as well?

I think we all have. I think we've all complained about them at some point and rightfully so.

The CORs, BRDs and RDMs that can melee or pull and still maintain their primary roles are few and far between in my experience. I've only ever had one RDM melee in merit where i didn't object to him doing so. I only know two BRDs that can keep buffs up and maintain pulling and high chains. And I've had people tell me I'm the only COR they've PTed with that juggled pulling, melee and buffing without losing focus. I'm not saying that too brag, I think its unfortunate other CORs left them with a bad impression of their melee. I don't think what I do is terribly hard. I guess being RDM, BRD and RNG proir play a lot into what I do.

RDM melee is not a god-given right, it is not a job trait - it is a player skill. Same for COR melee/pullng and BRD pulling. If more RDMs could balance out their duties with melee and really earn that spot on the frontline, I don't think many people would object too much to it. But I still don't think the game design is very accomodating for it and that adjustments need to be made to make it more favorable.

And I think the problem is epitomized with BLU. They can do a fair bit to support a PT while on the frontline, but instead load up on Physical Spells and not support ones. Like the other jobs I've mentioned, very few BLUs have impressed me, only one has ever blown me away with what he could do and... he stayed on the backline oddly enough, almost played it like a backline RDM would. Not the usual BLU, but impressive anyway.

[Murphie]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

I disagree. I don't think the job needs any adjustments. Certainly not towards more of a melee/casting role. Players who have the skill are already able to do both. Those that don't can't, and I see little reason to make it easier for them to do so.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

I disagree. I don't think the job needs any adjustments. Certainly not towards more of a melee/casting role. Players who have the skill are already able to do both. Those that don't can't, and I see little reason to make it easier for them to do so.

Either way, I'm of the opinion a RDM should earn the spot on the frontline. As a BRD and COR I prefer RDM in the backline for optimal buffing. RDM isn't a position-oriented job, so it can be difficult for somone to understand, but those that do understand and work with it have, in essence, earned their melee in the PT in my opinion.

But its few and far between and that's where the generalizations come from.

[BurningPanther]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Either way, I'm of the opinion a RDM should earn the spot on the frontline. As a BRD and COR I prefer RDM in the backline for optimal buffing. RDM isn't a position-oriented job, so it can be difficult for somone to understand, but those that do understand and work with it have, in essence, earned their melee in the PT in my opinion.
But its few and far between and that's where the generalizations come from.

And so if I cooperate with the BRD or COR and stand where they need when they decide to buff, then I've earned my right to melee too, yes? This means as long as I'm in position when they play their songs, I can run back and resume meleeing, right?

True, RDM isn't a position oriented job, and that sure, they might not get the buffs they ought to when they the BRD or COR is doing their thing. But the beauty of it is, they don't need to. What does a RDM really ever need beyond Ballad or Evoker's roll? Sure, the extra Refresh effect is nice, but we can still give that to ourselves, so if we miss the song or the roll(and gain instead some Atk or Acc song/roll), it's not a chain breaker.

And as for additions to RDM, none are necessary, I agree, but I can think of a few concepts that might better balance RDM's magical and melee capabilities, but giving us too much more would be horribly unbalanced, I suppose.

[Murphie]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Of course a RDM should earn a spot on the frontline if they want one there. But that's up to the individual player. It's not necessary for SE to make any changes to the job to further enable this.

Either you can manage it or you can't given the tools you have. It's not a failing of the job that some people can't accomplish it effectively.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Sure, the extra Refresh effect is nice, but we can still give that to ourselves, so if we miss the song or the roll(and gain instead some Atk or Acc song/roll), it's not a chain breaker.

If you think it isn't, you likely haven't seen very high EXP chains.