RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

tdh, I just want to start off by saying this is in no way an attack or flame towards what you say. In all actuallity I'm trying to help you find that 'middle ground' to ride out, and to do that I have to point out some things.

Issue is that Convert more than makes up for the lack of proficiently in those Skills. A near endless supply of MP far out weighs their weaker skill there. But you're right, until PUP the same concept on the melee side of the street would not have been acceptable.
As I read through this thread and weigh in the points against what I do in a party I'm getting closer and closer to trying to Front Line it from time to time.

This is actually very good. It is better to have a casting-based mage giving this an attempt than say someone who joined it off the ball and does not understand the mechanics of the mage aspect of the job. Or worse, someone who has spent their game as a melee/dd character and completely mistakes the perspective on the how's and why's of a hybrid style.

With that said, it should be noted that I hate Main Healing with a passion. Cure Nuking on a RDM is a poor substitute for a white mage, despite our MP endurance. Even with /whm we simply lack to tools to heal as efficiently. I'll type more on this as we go along.

The problem for me isn't going to be MP, I'm a master at MP management, but there's still the issue of spell casting. No matter how many Fast Casts Traits you're working with, this takes time. (Why can't we Merit Fast Cast again? lol Instant casts & No Interruptions. Can I have It?)

Could I gain enough TP to Skillchain every other mob? Sure, but that's only if I didn't cast at all. I've seen Imps take less than 15 seconds to die, if I'm casting just Dispel and Silence the mob's just about knocking on Death's door, so when am I gaining MP in this situation?

Wouldn't we all want Fast Cast merits.

Essentially though, Gaining TP is somewhat an issue if you're not really taking the time to watch out for everything. Sometimes you can get away with NOT casting that dispel if you know the mob's dead in 3 seconds. Some tricks you can open up is simply cast as it's being pulled. One thing you can do is meet part way with your puller. Get those spells in early, before the rain of havoc comes via the melee's. Just like you do when you're a back-liner, knowing your timing. A Hybrid needs to play at a different level of timing than you're used to. So in reality, you won't know how to manage it properly, untill you've gotten some experience under your belt.

It should be noted that yes, you're not going to gain TP quickily, because of your casting. However this isn't always bad. Blue Mages, who also cast frequently do not gain TP as fast as other jobs either. To use it as an example, you can open up Savage Blade for them, which lets them use full TP on Cannonball for greater damage. (a blu/thf can CASA it for some really high numbers!) Seeming both jobs take longer gathering TP, they can also work together really well in that manner.

A key element to really help with both DoT and TP is Joyuse. By this point it should go without saying that if you truly wanna be a benefit via a Hybrid style, this is the best item you can get for it.

As I mentioned previously, I could put up Acc+50 in gear, so my Acc wouldn't flat out suck. ^^ But I don't know if I could out melee my MB damage. I'm a serious nuker, so I carry around plenty of INT/Nuking gears for MB'n alone. With an average of 700dmg MBs and having the time to land my MB 80%+ of the time, I'm out doing the kinda damage I'd do per 10 minutes.

If you're serious about Magic Bursting, then this might not be for you. Put simply, a RDM can and will deal equivalents damage support via melee or nuking. Just like melee, if a rdm nukes improperly, his damage assistance is going to suck. You need the proper gear, and the proper timing. Not to mention that doing so comes at a sacrifice of your MP, which also can cause downtime. In the end these two basic principles are not different at all.

However your game's focus is important here. It all comes down to tastes. If you're leveling up white mage, black mage, and summoner up with your Red Mage, then you got a more mage oriented style, and trying to Hybrid is going to be a bit harder for you. But say if you are leveling up Blue Mage and Paladin, where as in these situations, meriting sword, STR, and Crit Hit isn't going to hurt your overall game or necessarily be a waste of merits, so doing so doing so will lean you more into a Hybrid style support.

Of course I know it could then be pointed out that my MB damage wouldn't out weigh the potential Skillchain and effect but this relies on a specific set up. Basically requiring a DD to sub THF instead of NIN, which in turn ~could~ require more MP from me to heal.

It's not as narrow as you might think. Between Evisceration and Savage Blade, you can create either a Light or Darkness skill chain which will deal more damage as a paired than most melee's could ever pull off alone, and that's a solid fact. You don't need to have a person sub thf to pull off a decent closer. In all actuality, what you should be looking at is the job classes that are using 2-handed weapons, such as Gaxe, GKatana, Scythe, and Pollarm. Thanks to Seigan-Third eye, it's more likely to see these weapons out in a burn party which ups the possibility to have them cooperate. However, it's more likely that your skillchain contribution is meant for non-burns.

For burn parties, you're really not going to have the time to nuke, and skillchains are so infrequent that nuking would be off Magic Bursts to begin with. So you pretty much loose the entire damage aspect of your support if you're caught nuking.

The more Hybrid styles at the very least have their DoT from Enspells and meleeing, and MIGHT get off a skillchain now and they (like you MIGHT get a burst from two sidewinders.) However, the real kicker here is that using a free skillchain isn't going to be MP costly.

Then comes the issues with Colibiri. Nukes get bounced back, Meleeing doesn't.

In the end it all comes down to that "almighty dolla!" It's the greed that drives people in Meripos. We want to gain 10K+ EXP/hr, and this rogue/selfish RDM is getting in the way of my next Merit. So I'm in no way surprised by WTFBBQ's comment on said RDM slowing down EXP for 5 other people when they were invited to be a Cure Tank. But with creativity, imagination, and skill it could be possible to still keep up I think. Just need to find that middle ground and ride it out.

A couple notes.

First, on RDM Cure Taking.

A rdm, is in no way more efficent than a whm in healing. A WHM can afford to take a knee and recover MP because they have Regen 3+4 merits curing for them as they are down for their tics. A RDM has no Regen Past 1, No Cure 5 (which leaves us with the overly expensive Cure 4) limited healing via Ga-Magic (most pink mages save DS for Convert). We NEED Convert and Refresh just to try to keep up with the sheer MP efficiency a WHM has over a RDM when it comes to curing.

Truth is a WHM with Auto Refresh from /SMN, Nobles, and Sanction would most likely do better than a RDM when it came to curing. RDM's get mostly invited to spam Haste, which a BRD, or Corsair could also do. A whm who gets Ballads or Evokers Role or a RDM's refresh could take up Haste and Regen Cycles entirely.

The ONLY exception to this is Roaming parties, which, in truth, are NOT as common as players would like, simply because of the over-camped areas used for most exp and burn parties.

As far as keeping up when you are invited to be a cure tank, this is where making the right choices comes into play. You know what you are doing with your party, what your party setup is, and how you will work. You have to make the decision on wither or not front line will work or not, sometimes, it just doesn't. Disgression is the better part of valor.



And now to regard BBQ, who's post was angry and very flammable IMO.

You're walking into a gunfight with a knife.

Didn't you get the memo? I'm a Red Mage. I win gun fights with a Knife all the time.

You want numbers? Ok, let's play the numbers game.

I should warn you, there are a very, VERY elect few on any of these forums who can beat me in theory crafting.

In the end it all boils down into the situation.

Brief example. So it's a gun fight and I have a knife. But unfortunately for you, who has the gun, are blind, in a noisy factory, and a knife makes no noise. Did I mention I have 6 months training in boot camp and know how to throw it?

Or if we're in close quarters and both of our weapons is in a holster. It may take you longer to pull your gun and take aim than it takes for me to pull my knife and stab you. Lest we forget, knives are easier weapons to use in a grapple.

Now granted, if we're 600 yards apart and you've got me in the cross hairs of a sniper rifle, I got a fat chance of winning, but chances are I'm not going to show up to a gun fight with a knife unless the situation gives me an edge.

That point alone debunks you're entire argument.

With Sanction and Vermy RDM is getting 8 a tick.

Why the RDM using a Vermy in a merit? Relic hat alone will give you that. Dalmeica or Morrigan's will give you auto-refresh on body. (Morrigan's will also assist any physical needs without sacrificing MND potency against a VT.) That's a 1mp per tic you didn't account for. Max MP return so far 9mp per tic or ~1800 MP per 10 minutes.

We're roaming? I'm subbing Summoner, you don't like it? Tough shit, you you had a choice to invite a whm you should have. Let the BRD/WHM remove Status Ailments. I'll keep him refreshed.

What? He's subbing Ninja, ok I'll go /whm, THIS time. You've failed your number crunching anyways.

13-17 a tick maximum potenial

Finish your equasions.
Taking the base minimum and maximum. R, being Refresh per tic
R(60/3) * 10 = 2600-3400
Cure IV (highest cure) is 88 MP
Raw, thats 29-38 Cure 4s Pluss change to break even.
Refresh/Haste on 6 people will cost ~ 720 MP (Base Hume RDM/WHM HP exceeds 800)

If I'm blowing 29-38 cure 4s on the party over a course of 10 minutes, something is seriously wrong, especially considering that burn parties are /nin /sam onry. I can manage Hastes and Refreshes on my own HP, and if there's both a Cor and Brd in the party ONE of them can afford to put up a HP Regen spell.

So no, a RDM really does not 'need' to be resting ANY even in a roaming burn. And lets consider the papper-defences of burns, on top of the poor healing efficiencies of a RDM. If you ARE resting, and something goes wrong, you could be costing the life of a party member, which is FAR worse than a slight loss in exp/hr, especially seeming that member is going to be wanting an R3 that you don't have.

I quit RDM because I saw where the job was going with burns well before ToA. I have burned BRD, COR and RDM from arrowburn to manaburn to TP burn. If there is anything I do know, its how to play in burns efficiently.

And to speak back with the same tone you have given me, it's most likley all you know. You know how to play roaming/backline rdm in burns. You most likely haven't even TOUCHED the possibilities of a Hybrid support style, let alone take the time to figure out how to be.

To correct you, you quit rdm because you listened to the social sigma of how RDMs 'should' be, and watched the melee-oriented perspective dominate the majority of the opinions in this game. In that, you may have overlooked the progressive updates in the past 3 years that have given most MP orientated jobs the ability to pretty much refresh themselves. You didn't notice on how the MP load of even roaming parties actually lightened when it came to curing, leaving the only demands that caused an increase of MP consumption being the constant demand for hastes.

Think of your PT first and your sword dead last.

Stop thinking your sword can do nothing but harm a party.

RDM are very much EXP healers now. We not only have no reason to melee, we have no real reason not to main heal.

I'd hate to disappoint you, but not all exp parties are burn parties. No all parties are EXP parties. Not all Burn parties are Roaming Burn parties.

By your logic, no whm should ever be in a burn party, which is just not true.

If anything, reducing a RDM to a Cure Tank (no rdm is a main healer. Period.) is an insult to the class, every rdm knows it. Those who listened to the BS surrounding the Melee-orientated viewpoint are going to be the one's that think this a standard.

Those that don't either choke it cause they'd rather have the exp/hour or simply put up {main}{Heal!}{No thanks!}.

All it is, is a matter of play style and greed.

Want to melee in EXP? Make a static that will accept that.

Such an elitist comment if I have ever heard one.

If you want to melee in exp, you have to KNOW what situations are good for it, and how to do it properly. Other than that, it's simply a matter of proving yourself. Every player who does not sit and preach to forums knows that. The common opinion is, if you can do your job and melee, you're fine.

When it comes to the opinion's your giving out BBQ... well, there are some people who won't be convinced even when it's proven in front of them. Wither front or back line, it's best to avoid such closed minded persons, as they tend to cause more friction in a group than what it is worth in exp.

All I am stressing is that for one, it can be done and done well, and two, the way to do it will should be written up in a guide to help prevent misconceptions. To do that, it's fullest extents have to be experimented and measured with. With what we have available, I believe it has reached that stage.

You're fully entitled to disagree with me.

But I urge you to stop arguing, and take another look at it. Most of your arguments have aged and lost a lot of the validity they once had 3 or even 1 year ago, and I'm not inclined to be repeating myself over and over.

Just do what Reanarudo is doing, and take another look at it. You may find a reason to pick up the pimp hat once more.

[BurningPanther]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Didn't you get the memo? I'm a Red Mage. I win gun fights with a Knife all the time.

While the entire post deserves a bow, I want you to know that I am stealing this quote, to go into my sig along with Stargren's.

I do have to disagree with you in one respect. When you refer to a RDM stepping up to melee in party/exp situations, you refer to it as "Hybrid RDM."
I feel this is a redundancy, the same as saying "Hybrid Hybrid." By it's design, RDM is a hybrid, part-melee, part-caster. The popular consciousness and group configurations have viewed it as backline only, so that seeing a meleeing RDM as some new or unconventional concept. It's nothing new, it's nothing unconventional. It's simply the job performing as it was meant to. It isn't "Melee Red Mage" or "Hybrid Red Mage," it's merely "Red Mage," in all it's completeness.

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

I understand your perspective about the redundancy's of saying "Hybrid Rdm"

In all actuality, I agree with you, a Red Mage is a Hybrid class to begin with.

However, when people refer to a Red Mage up in the front row, people typically say "Melee Red Mage" in a rather derogatory manner. The term itself brings to mind poorly equipped, poorly trained rdms under the beleif that they are some pseudo dd or some ultra-god character that can do everything as well in parties as they can solo. More often than not they neglect their more magical side to their job class.

The term "Hybird RDM" is a distinction away from the bad sigmata of the "Melee RDM" by stating right in it's name that Meleeing is not it's "Focus" rather than a part of it's being. It emphasizes the fact that all aspects of the job, both magical and physical are bing utilized with a goal in mind rather than mindlessly whiffing away at a monster. It states loud and clear that a you are not a mage trying to be a melee. It reminds the players that RDMs are, in fact, hybrids, and that in this situation, they are being played that way.

Considering how a lot of arguments in this situation can get redundant, overlooking that aspect of redundancy in the name isn't very difficult.

[tdh]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Before I respond to Hyrist, can we have this stricken from the record?

Are you ready?

13-17 MP a tick maximum potenial, and that is not mentioning +hMP gear and +hMP buff values.
More MP recovered = less downtime. No matter how much MP you spend per fight or how little you need to rest for MP, that is always true. Before you point at convert, before you think 3 MP a tick is enough, think about the maximum potential your PT can achive, think about how you can help them achive it. 99.9% of the time in EXP - levels 25 and up - you will not add much via melee.

There's a HUGE difference between MAX MP return and the MIN MP return required to get the job done. What kind of Meripos have a RDM, BRD, COR, and SMN in it anyway? Hell, the last Burn PT I had with a BRD, I had Ballad maybe 15% of the time. So my simple 3~4MP/tick does the job just fine. And RDMs don't /heal. We haven't since the mid to late Lv.50's.

I'm with you Hyrist, I really hate Main Healing. I hate playing WHM as well, but I do it because I want the Merit Points. (I feel even worse for SMN since they're completely detached from their actual job as they pretended to be a WHM.)

A rdm, is in no way more efficent than a whm in healing. A WHM can afford to take a knee and recover MP because they have Regen 3+4 merits curing for them as they are down for their tics. A RDM has no Regen Past 1, No Cure 5 (which leaves us with the overly expensive Cure 4) limited healing via Ga-Magic (most pink mages save DS for Convert). We NEED Convert and Refresh just to try to keep up with the sheer MP efficiency a WHM has over a RDM when it comes to curing.

This is very true, but a RDM is self-sufficient in their role as the Meripo Cure Monkey. We can Refresh ourselves, have Haste, up to Cure IV, and can get the job done well enough that we've replaced the non-existent WHM. WHM comes and the need Refresh at all times. Even with gear, /SMN, and Sanction a WHM will still ~need~ full time Refresh.

Then there's the issue that there are so few WHMs these days, I've had a WHM in my party once in the past 3 months. But when I am, I go pull and build Chains to keep the EXP rolling. As intrigued as I am by your theories and suggestions I just couldn't see myself drawing my sword. But that's not to say it can't be done.

As I stated I'm serious about my MB'n. I carry INT+50, all my Elemental Staves, Elemental Skill gear, and MAB gear to push my numbers. I've heard a number of BLMs say they've been very impressed with the nuking I do. 200~300 more damage than most RDM MBs.

I Meripo with a semi static of a NIN, SAM, and MNK. They like to Skillchain, which works out great for me because I like to MB. In this instances I know they would have no problem with me drawing my sword. NIN could just solo her Jins, and I could open Darkness (Don't have Savage Blade yet.) for the SAM to go with his Med. But we now have 2 Darkness effects and most likely nobody MB'n. Better serves the group for me pull, and be back in time to toss out my 700+dmg Blizzard IIIs. I think my MBs are on the higher end for a RDM, so that's why I said I don't think my melee damage could keep up with my nukes. Another RDM who doesn't care about their nukes might be able to flip that.

I spent 3 hours doing some solo skill ups tonight. Something I haven't done in quite a while, and I completely forgot how much work it was. (Took me 35 min plus to solo a T Steelshell. Thing was beating through Stoneskin just as SS's /recast was up.) But you're right, turns out I'm not the RDM to test this out any further. I could run out to meet the mob and get my debuffs on, but why not just pull and not bother with meleeing? As much fun as meleeling might be, I just feel I can do more for the party standing outta AoE range nuking, buff'n & debuff'n, and Healing.

I'm content being a backline mage. I mean with all the melee jobs I level, it's not like I'm starving to quench my DD's thirst for blood. But I won't go as far as to say by drawing a Sword the RDM is ruining everybody else's EXP.

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Thank you, and I want to point out something here.

It is completely ok to prefer a single style while accepting another. I'm not here claiming that a rdm 'should' or 'hast to' be a hybrid in these cercumstances. Rather that I am saying that a Hybrid RDM support style is not much different than a Backliner Nuking RDM style.

When properly done it can be a good benefit to the party's damage potential, which is a good help on top of the endurance potentials already given in a normal situation.

tdh. I thank you for recognizing that it's simply not your style, rather than forcing yourself to give it a shot, and then attempt to debunk it with data flooded in personal bias.

This is part of the reason why I don't think it is proper for me personally to provide any raw data. It's well known that I'm a firm advocate of alternative play styles for years now, and anything I say, be it data or otherwise, will come with that bias against me.


The only thing I plan on 'proving' is that Maat can be meleed as a rdm for a win, and that the method can be standardized enough to be followed in a guide. However, the meleeing maat part for a victory has already been proven.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Hyrist all your doing is playing selective quoting so you can argue in favor of RDM melee.

I'm honestly with you on wanting to melee, but the fact remains that RDM's strengths can best used to more effective ends than melee. You may not be built to be the best healer in the game, but RDM way more suited for it tham SMN or BLU are - that cannot be denied. Neither of them get it better than a Cure III.

On the note of Cure IV, if a RDM has to fall back to Cure IV four times in span of ten minutes, I'd have to say something was wrong with the RDM and not the PT, Only time I ever used Cure IV is for me, and that's well out of the hate radius of the mob. Instances where Cure IV and V (for WHM) are extremely rare and if they're common you have a poor main healer, that's all there is to it.

As for Regen, you sell the first tier short. It brings out the equivelant of a Cure III no matter how weak you think its, I always used it whenever possible in EXP and in solo. Ask yourself this - 15 MP or 47 MP? If you do the Regen first, you may not have to pick up with a higher cost Cure later.

If you have a WHM and help them on Regens, they can focus their high tier ones to the tank or a select melee - not everone needs a Regen II or III. Speaking as a BST, Regen is practically all the curing I ever need, and that argument can be extended to various melee where AoE mobs are not concerned.

BLUs may have to cast spells, but their A rating in sword also allows them higher damage and higher TP return. Most of their spells are quickly cast as well. RDM might have fast cast traits out the wazoo, but after Dia, Poison, Bio and Barspells, BLU has them beat. They cast more quickly so they can still build the TP.

Joyeuse? If a COR isn't pulling, they can use that, bullets and /RNG and beat you in TP and DoT, they won't even have to dual wield. Not to mention they likely have SAM Roll going..

RDM melee + MB isn't going to hold up against 1k Dancing Edge or Rampages, 2k Sidewinders and definately not anything SAM could put out. At that point RDM isn't dishing out "equivelant damage" what they're dealing out is a joke. Half of your claim might be true if skillchains still happen, but it still would never touch that kind of damage.

I'd hate to disappoint you, but not all exp parties are burn parties. No all parties are EXP parties. Not all Burn parties are Roaming Burn parties.

Burn PTs are all that ever happen now, its even bleeding down into lower levels before Aht'Urghan EXP PTs. People finally leared what they should have learned in Valkurm years ago - chaining T and VT is faster EXP. Even your pre-ToA burn PTs knew this.

My perspective may be skewed in burn PTs since I'm also both a BRD and a COR, however, I'm always in one of these PTs with a RDM more often than not, so they happen a lot for RDM too. Plus, you seem to object to main heal, which is obviously going to force you to seek balanced PTs. If you cut off your "jack of all trades" potential to get in on the melee game, you're now just another face in the melee crowd

As for this:

I should warn you, there are a very, VERY elect few on any of these forums who can beat me in theory crafting.

In the end it all boils down into the situation.

Brief example. So it's a gun fight and I have a knife. But unfortunately for you, who has the gun, are blind, in a noisy factory, and a knife makes no noise. Did I mention I have 6 months training in boot camp and know how to throw it?

Or if we're in close quarters and both of our weapons is in a holster. It may take you longer to pull your gun and take aim than it takes for me to pull my knife and stab you. Lest we forget, knives are easier weapons to use in a grapple.

Now granted, if we're 600 yards apart and you've got me in the cross hairs of a sniper rifle, I got a fat chance of winning, but chances are I'm not going to show up to a gun fight with a knife unless the situation gives me an edge.

That point alone debunks you're entire argument.

It was a saying. You do know that, right? Please say "yes," you're so wrapped up in your own argument its kinda scary now.

[Murphie]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

You're.

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Selective quoting has nothing to do with the validty of my arguments here. I'm taking each point as it comes and giving you a proper response. I'm sorry if you find this difficult to argue with.

RDM melee + MB isn't going to hold up against 1k Dancing Edge or Rampages, 2k Sidewinders and definately not anything SAM could put out. At that point RDM isn't dishing out "equivelant damage" what they're dealing out is a joke. Half of your claim might be true if skillchains still happen, but it still would never touch that kind of damage.

I'm sorry, I'm going to directly quote BurningPanther here:

Yeah, RDM melee isn't great. Yeah, I know we'll never hit the big numbers that true meleetards do. I also know that it sort of has to be this way, because RDM is meant to use it's melee capabilities in tandem with our considerable magickal power. I know this, and am fine with it.
But this is a RED MAGE forum on RED MAGES talking about RED MAGE melee. It's RED MAGES comparing with other RED MAGES on our piddly damage, and RED MAGES sharing ideas with other RED MAGES on how to maxinmize that piddly damage, should they choose. There's no call for any career meleetard to come in and throw around the wonders of meleetard damage exceeding our own. It's like me going into the NIN or WAR or lolDRK forums and pointing out that they can't solo for shit. Their forum is for comparing their job-related notes, not for me to come in and brag. We know our limitations, as well any RDM above level 40 should. They're as apparent as our AF colors. But we're here in a job specific forum talking shop about said job.

You're mistaking what I am saying by "equivilant". Everything I am speaking about when it comes to RDM is introverted. We're talking about different ways a RDM will provide THEIR support to a party. And if a RDM melee's properly, the contributions they add to the overall damage by skillchaining as is equivalents to that if they were to magic burst, for much less MP, especially if they open for a Level 3 skillchain.

Burn PTs are all that ever happen now, its even bleeding down into lower levels before Aht'Urghan EXP PTs. People finally leared what they should have learned in Valkurm years ago - chaining T and VT is faster EXP. Even your pre-ToA burn PTs knew this.

Attacking T-VT in chains is not always a burn, Sorry. My fiance just got out of a an exp party. She's a WHM. It wasn't a burn. Just because all you are seeing are burn parties does not mean that is all that exists. Black Mages and Summoners that are not cure-whoring have to get their exp somehow, and not always through Manaburns. Balanced parties still do exist, but they are in fewer numbers. That has more to do with the number of melee jobs in the game than the killing T-VT. Even balanced parties still chain T-VT for good exp.

If you cut off your "jack of all trades" potential to get in on the melee game, you're now just another face in the melee crowd

You seem to not be understanding my perspective here. I am by no means sacraficing my "jack of all trades" aspect at all. I still haste, I still Enfeeble, I still Refresh. I still back-up heal, and at time, yes I will main heal if necessary. (I prefer to help my parties however I can, and do sometimes get suckered into main healing, but that also effects how long I stay in the party.) However, I do prefer to melee and participate in a skillchain rather than nuking, especially for balanced parties.

In burn parties, it really doesn't matter how I support damage, if at all. DDing is flooded anyways and with all the ninja and samurai subs about soaking hits with shadows, my curing load is much lighter even as a main heal.

As a point in case, most times I party I save myself the hassle and bring my mage gear only. This is partly cause I am also experimenting with MND potency vs Magical Accuracy. Anyways, every time I forget to bring some melee gear along I get left twiddling my thumbs wishing I could melee because fighting T-VT is so much easier now than it the old days against IT++.

It was a saying. You do know that, right?

Right. But what's the problem of me using the saying back against you?

You came into this conversation rather arrogantly, thinking you're going to 'win' out by stating argument's that have already been said.

There's really no constructive criticism in your post, and nothing of what you are saying is contributing to the points of the thread.
You try to pass this off as something you can manage with a simple saying when in truth I've got far more than a simple 'knife' to throw into the gunfight this time.

The difficulties and complaints about rdm melee have been said and done to death. Repeating age-old arguments against new discoveries isn't going to work in this case. The game has changed.

You can do a search in any forum about RDM meleeing and hear the complaints. Some of the best ones will tell you that a RDM can melee deicently and still support his party vs all the way up to VT. Part of the main argument against RDM was that the majority of the mobs exped on at the time were IT for best exp ratio.

Nowadays that is no longer the case, and there are far more items and situations supporting a Hybrid style rdm than back then.

Now I'm going to apologize BBQ, but I am no longer going to reply to your posts or argument's as to the 'should' and 'shouldn't'.

It is time to focus on the 'how?'s not the 'why?'s.

You're welcome to put as much input as to what you think will help these stratigies work better as you like. But the nay-saying isn't helping or defeating my purpose. It's just stalling.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Disclaimer: You have entered the RDM forum. Any discussion against RDM melee is completely forbidden and you're likely to recieve the most unified one-sided stance you have ever seen outside of that whole Democrat vs. Republican thing.

No matter how factual or correct you are, no matter how wide a margin you beat a melee RDM in melee damage, they will still insist that 100 DMG Burning Blade was worthwhile. To the melee RDM, you are only "The Man" trying to hold them down for suggesting they GTFO out AoE range, stop being an MP sink and take a knee on the backline.

The melee RDM cannot be content that they own in Ballista or can solo all manner of NMs. The melee RDM can't be happy with thier luxurious invite rate, no, they must melee because they are Altana's gift to FFXI, even though they had to be given Refresh to even get an invite in the first place.

The rational is that RDMs in other games were great melee. This is true, however:

NINs didn't tank in those games.
BSTs weren't expeceted to solo thier EXP.
Kain and Cid Highwind weren't constantly LFG.

Yet in FFXI, this happens, something gets lost in the online translation and the jobs are subject to community trends for the sake of efficent play. Melee RDM does not understand this and doesn't want to accept that he is, in fact, next in line for healing when there isn't a WHM.

It is futile to rationalize with the melee RDM. Just save your breath, snicker and move on.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Did you guys see my parse? I parsed 80% on an Imp, with 252 sword skill, 117 dagger (forgot I was subbing Hornet Needle) and I wasn't even wearing ACC gear... I had like +11 ACC and a Squid Sushi.

Imagine if I had a few easy to obtain pieces of gear:
Pahluwan Body (or SH) +10
Mermans Gorget (or Chiv Chain) +5
Life Belt +10
Vendor Slops +3

That's +28 from gear you find in the trash.

Not to mention that on our JSE has +5 from hands and feet, bringing the total to +33.

And rings haven't even been factored. I have a Shikaree ring for +2. I could get two Snipers for +10.

+43 acc, with B skill and Squid sushi. I'd most likely parse in the low 90s on VTs.

Keeping in mind spells to be cast and such,
WSing every other fight is highly likely.

So many pieces of gear afford MAB... Yigit Turban, Zenith Mitts, Relic Feet, Moldy Earring....

And RDMs use macros like they're going out of style. I don't want to toot my own horn, but I'm one of the few ppl who could pull something like this off.

All the speculative arguments are nothing but raw numbers being crunched favorably.

My view on Convert is this: if you aren't out of MP next time your Convert is up, you're wasting MP.

With my timer down to 8:20, I have more MP than I know what to do with. Especially if I open, what's stopping me from MBing off Light or Darkness?

It's all about variety, and RDMs have been pigeon-holed into a certain caste.

You guys see that RDM melee Maat? Holy hell, that guy sucked. But he still did it.

I see a lot of vids, and especially when I team up with other RDMs I notice.... many ppl don't know wth to do with a sword.

Hyrist wants to write a guide, so I'm collecting info. That simple.

[Mhurron]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Hyrist all your doing is playing selective quoting so you can argue in favor of RDM melee.

You're doing no different. You're arguing against RDM melee in a party by saying if the RDM is the main healer they don't have time. Which is often true and if they are main healing they should be using a Light staff to heal more efficiently, but RDM isn't always invited as main healer.

RDM is still better off on the backline and more efficient on the backline even without a BRD, even with nothing better to do but heal, haste or refresh

I'm sorry but, what? You're saying that RDM is better in a party doing *nothing* instead of doing something. I don't need to parse that (which is good because I choose not to melee), common sense tells you that doing damage compared to doing nothing kills things faster.

In most meleeburns, with everyone or almost everyone going //NIN, there is very little healing going on. Only a few need refresh leaving the majority of work being haste and enfeebles. Most things aren't lasting long enough to require you to recast enfeebles and haste lasts about 2 full battles. This leaves the non-main-healing RDM with a hell of a lot of time. A party member standing there doing nothing is not helping the party, so that RDM has to find something to do to fill the time in a productive manner. If they've kept their sword or dagger skill up, melee is a viable option.

[Celeal]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Compare to other mobs at the same level, Imps' defense, evasion and max HP are very low. I don't see any accuacy issue regarding RDM's melee against Imps at high levels. However, for other exp mobs, that is a different story.

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

It's amusing how BBQ felt the need to type in bold red text. Yet still has not said anything new for a new argument. Anyways, moving along.

Ren, I'm taking a look at a few things here, some experiments to work with or to pass along if you got time.

First off, Rampage is a well known weapon skill used for its high damage, and shared by Bsts Drks and Wars. Sidewinders/Slugshots are heavily used By Samurai's Corsairs and Rangers in burns. Thieves prefer SATA Dancing Edge for a good 2k. All VERY high damage output weapon skills...

Did you know that Evisceration opens Distortion for all of them?

Good old Evis also opens up Compression for Penta-thrust.

With all these weapon skills closing the same, from the same opener, it wouldn't be hard at all to 'slip' in a skill chain from these guys even in a burn. In which case on top of whatever damage Evis deals, or your weapons Dps + enspells, you've given another 1400 damage on top of that 2k damage WS.

You don't have to number crunch to really see the benefit in that, especially if you are just sitting around otherwise.

Piercing also has a bonuses factor against flying monsters like Imps and Colibiri, which is why Ran's dealing such a high accuracy ratio despite a B skill, provided he is using joytoy. Daggers alone are piercing and will have that bonus.

Anyways, see if you can either get the WS yourself or get someone else to test how a RDM/NIN wth Martial Knife and Joytoy would do in a burn, still managing his support. I'm interested in seeing what results you might come up with.

One thing I have heard that is right, is that burns are more common, and that these high-damage weaponskills are preferable. If so, Evis may be a RDM's meal ticket for quick, and MP light contributions to damage.

[tdh]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

The only thing I plan on 'proving' is that Maat can be meleed as a rdm for a win, and that the method can be standardized enough to be followed in a guide. However, the meleeing maat part for a victory has already been proven.

This I plan to prove as well. If a BRD can melee Maat, so can we. I've just been lazy in getting another test and finally claiming my Joytoy. But this is something I will do! Few in my Ls was surprised I didn't go this route my 1st round against Maat. "Odude always tries things the hard way, and some how manages to win."

It was a saying. You do know that, right? Please say "yes," you're so wrapped up in your own argument its kinda scary now.

I'm still laughing about this!

Piercing also has a bonuses factor against flying monsters like Imps and Colibiri, which is why Ran's dealing such a high accuracy ratio despite a B skill, provided he is using joytoy. Daggers alone are piercing and will have that bonus.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all damage modifiers like Piercing or Blunt damage has no inherent accuracy bonus. It's purely a damage bonus. So using a Dagger, Polearm, or RngAtk vs any of these mobs will not increase your accuracy. If I'm wrong in this information could somebody drop a line.

In last night's solo Skill Up, I tacked on Acc+48 and did NOT eat any Sushi. I sub'd WAR for Double Attack, Defender, and Vorpal Blade then shot out to the Tree to find some Steelshells.

Optical Hat
Scorpian Harness
Merman's Gorget
Battle Gloves (Jaridah Bazubands meant I had to mule hop several times, so I just went with the Battle Gloves.)
Life Belt
Woodsman's Rings x2

Add on some Specs for another Acc+2, see about getting a few pieces of the Hydra set to add on another Acc+16 to end up with Acc+66. Toss in some food and I think you're accuracy could hack it. But my Acc+48 did just find against that T mob last night, add in food and fight VTs and I think your accuracy will still be fine. With a phat wallet I'm pretty sure we could over come that B rated Sword/Dagger.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Hyrist all your doing is playing selective quoting so you can argue in favor of RDM melee.

It was a saying. You do know that, right? Please say "yes," you're so wrapped up in your own argument its kinda scary now.

Can we get the irony police here? These two bolded comments alone warrant having bbq locked up forever, considering it's the EXACT same thing he/she does all the freaking time. Please, get over yourself, your not always right and no one expects it from you. These forums are a place for an exchange of information and ideas, not for you to tell US how to play the game we pay for because you wish to follow the stereotypical party mentality that also supports SMN being Main Healers.

Anyway thanks for the information Hyrist, was definitely a good read. I'll have to give some of these things a try later on when I get access to better job traits when subbing when I'm bored.