RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

[Aksannyi]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

The only time I considered melee in ToAU in a normal exp party was against Colibri, with a WHM in the party. I was virtually useless there (and I told the party so, and often left) as a caster, so I had plenty of time to get some melee in.

I've done this, as well. Without having much else to do besides Refresh myself and the White Mage, Enspell + Hitthemob was looking pretty good. I asked my party if it was okay first, and they said go for it. Hell, I wasn't even going to come anywhere close to running out of MP in that party. Every now and then I'd toss a nuke at the end of the fight if I was sure that nuke would kill the bird, but other than that, Refresh <me> + Refresh <White Mage> would have been too good damned boring for me to bother.

[Murphie]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Even against Colibri, RDM melee is pointless in ToA. That's when you shift focus to support and just rest of MP otherwise. EXP per hour > finding weak excuses to melee.

I'll start with "Bitch please."

Then I'll ask you exactly what you think I'm not doing in a Colibri party (with a WHM - which is the situation I referred to) that I could have done besides melee.

I never run out of MP. Especially in the particular party setup I mentioned. That's why I generally just leave parties like that, because I don't like feeling superfluous. But sometimes I stay, because the folks are nice, and we are getting great exp. My refresh is just that awesome, so I don't mind just being there for that sometimes. And if that's the case, and the party doesn't mind, then yeah, I'll whip out a sword and do a bit of meleeing.

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

What I think some players have failed to realize is that the game mechanics have changed.

Back in the older days of the game RDM Meleeing was possibly, but VERY far out of reach. The items of which would require too many slots when storage was a gigantic issue as Scorp Harness was 8 mil on auction house. When 'B' rating on anything was considered horribly gimp and Accuracy had to be stressed beyond all measure.

Nowadays people realize there is a cap on accuracy, not to mention know the wisdom in fighting mobs that are not constantly IT++ to melee jobs.

PLDs who were starved for MP are no sporting 2-3 mp per tic on their own. (Autorefresh, parade gorget, sanction refresh) Not to mention Chivary, which is good for MP restoration. Sentiel gives a better defence boost now thanks to straight migation update.

This all makes it lighter on the White Mage, who can now offer up some HP to restore someone else's MP. Not to mention boosts form Group 1 Merits now help with MP management thanks to Regen Potency.

A RDM can Merit their Magical accuracy, making staffs in an EXP party second rate to wands, if wanted at all. RDM no longer shares the Dual Kingship of Refresh with Bard, thanks to the invitation of a Corsair. And all and all it seems as if Refresh gear and traits have gone up in the game.

Thanks to Colibiri and Imps the nin/nin craze is as high as it's ever been. Ontop of the new updates with Seigan 3rd-eye now everyone can have a papper-shield to hide behind for burn parties. Again, this is lightening the healing and MP load even further.

Speaking of Colibri's it seems this thing is a walking attraction for meleeing. A rdm's support center is still well needed, but his debuffs and nukes will hurt the party? What else is he to do, cheer lead?

And what's this? A job class with a C rating main weapon meleeing? How queer! And not just his outfit, the fact that party's are letting him do it is weird too!


I've quietly preached that Square Enix has been slowly pushing RDM's more physical side into acceptance for quite a long time now. I noticed the trend since before JSE came out. Now instead of just giving us decent gear to hybrid in, they've gone and started to change the entire situation around us, as they said they would when they mentioned the job updates.

Now more than ever I think it would be wise for players to at least accept the concept of a front-line support RDM as an experimental practice. This way, if the trend continues, guides will be up for those who are wanting to take this road, and fewer problem-situations will arise.

[Omniblast]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Now more than ever I think it would be wise for players to at least accept the concept of a front-line support RDM as an experimental practice. This way, if the trend continues, guides will be up for those who are wanting to take this road, and fewer problem-situations will arise.

I believe change is a good thing. I hope that SE continues to spin changes where our jobs are more determined by our SKILL than by what we define ourselves in.

Curious note though, when meleeing with RDM do all of you use a /NIN sub or do you use something different such as /DRK?

Another note, I kinda forgot but it seems appropriate to ask here, are the drain spells focused on DARK or on another aspect in spellcastin? i.e. enfeebling (I forgot )

What is the focus on en-spells for the fight mp wise? How does that factor into the casting cycle and how much does it increase your mp consumption by?

Oh I do hope you write a meleeing guide for RDM. It seems very interesting.

[Aksannyi]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

.What else is he to do, cheer lead?

Oh my frigging Lord, that shit had me bust out laughing in the middle of class. Good thing it wasn't during a lecture. That's f'ing hilarious.

EDIT: Omni, I'm usually just /BLM as usual. When I get invited to these parties, for some reason we don't always know what we're fighting before we set out, but if we decide on Colibri I gently remind the party that I'll be casting only a few spells per fight, and ask if meleeing would be all right. Most don't mind. None have ever asked me to change my subjob or my gear. I actually meleed in a party in full AF once (except for that crappy weapon, of course) and nobody gave a damn. I think most people are of the mindset that if the mobs are dying quickly and the party members aren't, who gives a flying shit about what people are wearing or subbing?

I think there was only one party against Colibri where I was /WHM, and I was main healing, but that's moot because I didn't have my sword out, anyway.

The fact that I don't have a good melee sub leveled enough to use at this point also makes a difference, but as of yet, no one who has had me melee in a party has complained about my subjob or my choices of gear/food.

[Celeal]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Very interesting thread.

I am wondering, what is the rough estimated figure of acc+/str+/atk+ gear would a melee RDM aims for in standard exp. parties post lvl 51?

For those melee jobs I leveled, I have never use non rank-A weapons in exp. parties after Qufim Island. I am not sure how to gear up for melee using rank-B weapons.

I also notice that if the RDM sub WHM or BLM, a lot of key WS for sword and draggers are missing. Since my main jobs are melees, TP and WS is a major part to me in terms of damage output.

Let say instead of Nuking and MB, if the backline RDM/BLM is stacking DoT spells, like Dia II, combination of elemental debuff (Shock, Burn...), RDM's highest tier Poison at his level, etc, how is the damage output and MP usage compare to a melee RDM?

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

I believe change is a good thing. I hope that SE continues to spin changes where our jobs are more determined by our SKILL than by what we define ourselves in.
Curious note though, when meleeing with RDM do all of you use a /NIN sub or do you use something different such as /DRK?
Another note, I kinda forgot but it seems appropriate to ask here, are the drain spells focused on DARK or on another aspect in spellcastin? i.e. enfeebling (I forgot )
What is the focus on en-spells for the fight mp wise? How does that factor into the casting cycle and how much does it increase your mp consumption by?
Oh I do hope you write a meleeing guide for RDM. It seems very interesting.

Options for a front line support RDM is about as wide now as a back line, and many backline jobs can still be viable.

One thing you may wish to consider though is HOW you are going to assist your party in front line. If you wish to up your overall DoT subbing a more melee based job is nice. However I'd actually advise to not always sub Ninja.

Subbing ninja doesn't do anything for our actual TP gain, but is usefull to allow you to offhand Joyuse and mainhand say Martial Analace. This also lets you mainhand a dagger if you are in need to open a Darkness skillchian as opposed to light, and not really sacrafices much as far as the double-attack advantage of the ever-important joyuse.

However, yes, /drk is a viable use, provided you understand that you must also gear in Darkness Skill + and heavy INT gear to make the Absorb spells more useful. However, /drk still stands alone as the one subjob that allows us to take away some evasion from the monster.

Some other jobs to consider though for exprimentation are as follows.

/blu. With access to AoE sleep that is mnd based, STR equippable spells, EX Weaponskills, and a variety of additional debuffs (Dex Down, Accuracy Down, Vit Down) BLU becomes a rather interesting job to use for all around adventuring ontop of some assistances along the lines of meleeing and duffing in parties.

Keep in mind though that debuffs are not always likley to land as they are dependant on factors beyond just weapon accuracy. This would be best suited for those burns with VT enemies who are more suseptable than IT.

Worried about MP recovery but still don't want to give up those EX Weaponskills? /pld is for you. While not much offered in the ways of offence, /pld gives a good 1 MP per tic endgame, which helps you keep on your main duities without having to macro in Refresh gear as much. It makes it better suited for more MP heavy parties. Some additional advantages is the ability to secure hate on a moment's notice if needs be. A RDM's endurance abilities and spells are more potant with Sentiel and Flash assisting, which makes things easier if having to manage a mob who's being a pest with sleep.

However, beside's weaponskills, this offers nothing in terms of offence.


Knowing what subjob to have for optimum assitance is more important frontlining than it really is backlining. And there are alot of stipulations that need to be ironed out. But with someone as informed as Wishmaster working with me on the theories and praticalities of this, I'm rather convinced that my stubborn argument might actually make some headway this time around.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

You know what I find ironic?

Most Red Mages are begged for main healing and/or nuking (along with the usual buffs/debuffs), and yet the very same Red Mages are shunned from Melee just because of B Weapons Skills (mediocre, but still okay, with the right sub).

This is though they have C+/- Elemental/Healing Magic (making them not only statistically worse at it then Melee, but also the worst at those Magics in the game).

Though De/buffs plainly should always come first for RDMs (as the best in the game for both), does anybody else find this ironic?

[tdh]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Most Red Mages are begged for main healing and/or nuking (along with the usual buffs/debuffs), and yet the very same Red Mages are shunned from Melee just because of B Weapons Skills (mediocre, but still okay, with the right sub).

This is though they have C+/- Elemental/Healing Magic (making them not only statistically worse at it then Melee, but also the worst at those Magics in the game).

Issue is that Convert more than makes up for the lack of proficiently in those Skills. A near endless supply of MP far out weighs their weaker skill there. But you're right, until PUP the same concept on the melee side of the street would not have been acceptable.

As I read through this thread and weigh in the points against what I do in a party I'm getting closer and closer to trying to Front Line it from time to time. The problem for me isn't going to be MP, I'm a master at MP management, but there's still the issue of spell casting. No matter how many Fast Casts Traits you're working with, this takes time. (Why can't we Merit Fast Cast again? lol Instant casts & No Interruptions. Can I have It?)

Could I gain enough TP to Skillchain every other mob? Sure, but that's only if I didn't cast at all. I've seen Imps take less than 15 seconds to die, if I'm casting just Dispel and Silence the mob's just about knocking on Death's door, so when am I gaining MP in this situation?

As I mentioned previously, I could put up Acc+50 in gear, so my Acc wouldn't flat out suck. ^^ But I don't know if I could out melee my MB damage. I'm a serious nuker, so I carry around plenty of INT/Nuking gears for MB'n alone. With an average of 700dmg MBs and having the time to land my MB 80%+ of the time, I'm out doing the kinda damage I'd do per 10 minutes.

Of course I know it could then be pointed out that my MB damage wouldn't out weigh the potential Skillchain and effect but this relies on a specific set up. Basically requiring a DD to sub THF instead of NIN, which in turn ~could~ require more MP from me to heal.

In the end it all comes down to that "almighty dolla!" It's the greed that drives people in Meripos. We want to gain 10K+ EXP/hr, and this rogue/selfish RDM is getting in the way of my next Merit. So I'm in no way surprised by WTFBBQ's comment on said RDM slowing down EXP for 5 other people when they were invited to be a Cure Tank. But with creativity, imagination, and skill it could be possible to still keep up I think. Just need to find that middle ground and ride it out.

[Murphie]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

So I'm in no way surprised by WTFBBQ's comment on said RDM slowing down EXP for 5 other people when they were invited to be a Cure Tank.

In that instance, I'd have to agree with BBQ. But that wasn't the instance I was referring to, and to which he insinuated that there was so much more I could have been doing in a party. If I have things to do in a party, I do them. It would never even cross my mind to pull out a melee weapon in any kind of exp situation. But when you're in that weird range where everyone wants to fight Colibri, and there is already someone curing and hasting, and all they really want from you is a bit of refresh, and some backup hasting/curing, then you have to find some way to keep yourself from going crazy.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

Kitten, you provide solid proof to me one example of how a RDM meleeing in a Burn Party will kill the exp per hour. Please. I would like you to give a Hybrid RDM a shot, if only to prove your point as opposed to speculation.
Now lets number crunch.

You're walking into a gunfight with a knife. You want numbers? Ok, let's play the numbers game.

BRD + RDM in PT (usual burn setup) = 6 MP a tick. With Sanction and Vermy RDM is getting 8 a tick. We're roaming and RDM is the healer.

RDM with COR instead of BRD? Getting 4-8 MP a tick. With vermy and Sanction? 6-10. With SMN? 7-11 a tick. With Healer's Roll, Dark Staff and +hMP foods? We're roaming and RDM is a healer.

COR + BRD + RDM = 7-11 MP a tick, With Vermy and Sanction? 9-13 a tick. With SMN? 10-14 a tick. With Healer's Roll, Dark Staff, and +hMP foods. GTFO of of the frontline, we're roaming and RDM is a healer.

And, just for the sake of argument, Soul Voiced Ballads in the darkest of hours on top of all this.

Are you ready?

13-17 MP a tick maximum potenial, and that is not mentioning +hMP gear and +hMP buff values.

More MP recovered = less downtime. No matter how much MP you spend per fight or how little you need to rest for MP, that is always true. Before you point at convert, before you think 3 MP a tick is enough, think about the maximum potential your PT can achive, think about how you can help them achive it. 99.9% of the time in EXP - levels 25 and up - you will not add much via melee.

Think of your PT first and your sword dead last.. You don't have to cheerlead, just take a knee and get your MP back, kthxbye.

I quit RDM because I saw where the job was going with burns well before ToA. I have burned BRD, COR and RDM from arrowburn to manaburn to TP burn. If there is anything I do know, its how to play in burns efficiently.

I don't want to play RDM as a healer, I don't enjoy it, but fact is RDMs are very much EXP healers now. We not only have no reason to melee, we have no real reason not to main heal. We're fresh out of them. Be thankful RDM can solo the way it does, there's a time you can use your swords above all else.

Want to melee in EXP? Make a static that will accept that, otherwise [That's too bad.]

[Mhurron]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

That's very nice omgwtf but you missed one thing. They weren't talking about a RDM-BRD party, they were talking about a party where there was a WHM, as in the RDM was not the main healer in the party. A WHM in the party frees up a RDM to do a lot more, and if the RDM can use that time and use their sword, more power to them.

However reading some of Hyrist post makes me feel pretty useless.

[Aksannyi]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

There are some really good thoughts in this thread. Sure, RDM melee is still considered the hellspawn of FFXI, but I've never thought that it had to be that way. And in certain situations, as Murphie pointed out, it's easily acceptable for a RDM to walk up and draw the sword.

I would never do it without my party's permission, nor would I do it if my sword skill got to a point where it were so far below cap that using it would be a waste. And of course, if I'm actually casting magic on mobs and switching out staves (as I usually am) then I'll stand in the back. But as Murphie said, if I haven't got anything better to do than toss out a Refresh twice every minute and a half or whatever the duration is, I really need to do something to keep busy.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

That's very nice omgwtf but you missed one thing. They weren't talking about a RDM-BRD party, they were talking about a party where there was a WHM, as in the RDM was not the main healer in the party.

I think melee is a great idea. What could it hurt? As long as you keep up your heals, refreshes, and hastes, in a WAR TP Burn pt w/a BRD, by all means, go for it.

This is where the BRD part started. Shin was using BRD as a classic fallback excuse for RDM melee. Fact is, COR and BRD want your butts on the backline and if you're not receiving those buffs, you ARE bringing the EXP per hour down.

Post your DoT logs, talk about your Enspell damage, point to Savage Blade - RDM is still better off on the backline and more efficient on the backline even without a BRD, even with nothing better to do but heal, haste or refresh. I don't like to say it, but its the hard, cold truth.

If you melee, you will be outdamaged; you will not contribute sufficent damage to EXP or merit PTs except in extremely rare situations; you will not get enough TP per fight to make that melee damage stand out because you have to sub /mage in general and use MP gear. Your core damage is from MB, which we don't see much of anymore, which is yet another reason why we need EXP mobs rebalanced.

To make RDM melee worthwhile, you'd have to have melee gear to swap out with that MP gear, thus losing MP. Yeah, not good for mages. RDM is loaded to the hilt on things like staves, rings, earrings, armor and all that as it is. If you're coming to a PT with melee gear over mage gear, they have every right to kick you.

RDM can be a thankless and even boring job at times, but tough luck, it comes with being "the jack of all trades." Most people these days know going in to RDM that melee is frowned on. Unless something changes in gear, spells or an update, its always going to be that way.

If you're looking for a true change to RDM for melee, you really do need to push the issue with SE to make it so. You can try to debunk it on forums, but its not going to change much of anything, you're still wanted on the backline and not needed on the frontline.

SE could make RDM melee more practical if they added specialized equipment that doesn't force a trade-off on mage and melee duties (pre Wise-Set), a series of swords comprable to the 51 staves and make Enspell damage more signifigant. That would be enough to put it on par for melee without sacrificing the mage aspect.

Boggles my mind that my RNG's Holy Bolts proc better and for more melee and magical damage than a RDM Enspell could hope to achieve. Enhancing Sword doesn't fix it, getting one of those is a real fantasy and probably still doesn't match what Holy Bolts can do. I don't think its terribly fair that RNG can beat out RDM on part of what RDM is designed to do. I'm not complaining as a RNG, but RDMs should be.

Enlight and Endark wouldn't hurt, either.

Some would say these ideas are unbalanced, but there are really good arguments against RDM melee as its stands now. If RDM wasn't reduced to bitch healer status like it is now, I'd probably still have my Taru on RDM. I want to do everything the job encompasses, but its no fun if you have to make a static for that, the current game design is very prohibitive toward what RDM wants to do in EXP.

[Murphie]

Re: RDM Melee (Renarudo Style)

I'm perfectly happy with RDM. We're far more awesome than the other 17 jobs. I can't complain.

I get more than enough melee outside of parties. I don't really need to have another thing to do in an EXP situation. But in the highly specialized instance that I referred to, I would consider it.