MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

[Taskmage]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

hmm maybe i'm missing something, why oh why do you need enhancing + gear or mnd to help your SS. are you really soloing with /blm or /whm and if you are why? soloing /blu or /nin is the only only way to solo, you do not need enhancing or mnd for 700 def with /blu and /nin needs eva and agi. whats going... if you are in a party /whm or /blm with 0 armor, blink, SS, and phlanx is more than enough to get you to safely control the mob until the party is ready for em'. if you are kiting the enhancing and mnd is the last of your worries, it comes down to your playing skill and your players enfeebing skill and macc. 2 to even 10 points in damage is basicaly the same, if this was the pld fourm then 2- 10 is not the same, and if you are getting hit so hard that your spells are getting interupted then it comes down to your skill and timing in casting the spell, not your enhancing and mnd, well Your mind yes^^. if a spell gets intrupted do to a weak hit, well that will happen every once in awhile, even if you had an unlilmited amout of mnd. just like a miss happens with melee no matter who you are.
again to awnser the main topic. skill> macc> int/mnd

Because neither cocoon nor ustusemi will stop Thundaga III or any number of other nasty AoEs, and because neither of those are available when you're farming with /thf. That's assuming the player in question has all those subs to choose from. Many don't.

[Digitai]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

sure Taskmage, they will not stop Thundaga III. but if you have cocoon up with your SS and phalanx Thundaga III, IV spells, freeze or flood will just drop your SS without the lose of any hp, maybe a very small # like 100. but i understand what you are saying, huge mob in a party or an allience fighting a caster that does AoEs while /blm, /whm or /drk, but really if you are in that situation and you get hit hard with a AoE regardless of your enhancing or mnd, you will still have to be cured and SS will need to be recast. SS caps at taking 350 dmg so you can have mnd and enhancing coming out of your ears and it still wil not matter. (and remember int helps lower damage taken from black magic not mnd) the most important thing in this instance is having the correct bar spell up, it will Dramaticly help you take less dmg. just cast your own bar spell even if you have a whm in your party b/c as rdm's our bar spells are way stonger than the whm bar-ra spells. bar spells have nothing to do with mnd only Enhancing magic so put your af leg armor on, cast the correct bar spell and rock^^
if you are farming with /thf and having to worry about your enhancing magic and mnd i do not think you are doing too much farming
ok well i am sure many ppl are going to hate on me for this critical hit to the mnd department but it is what it is.
and i will close with a piece for the main topic. Magic Accuracy and int/mnd is a little like Accuracy and dex. the difference is you can have too much Acc to where it will not help anymore. but its impossible to have too much MAcc, there is just not enough avalible. theres only 5 items that i know of that give you macc before lvl 73. what that tells me is it is only for high lvl players and will be needed when dealing with high lvl mobs. when it comes to a mob resisting a spell what is checked is a players MAcc, its a hidden trait, and to + it is extremly valuable.

[Icemage]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

Uh... Cocoon only increases your Defense. It doesn't do anything for you against magical damage like Thundaga III.

At end-game, my WHM75 casts noticeably stronger barspells than my RDM75 job.

---

I disagree about there being not enoug MAcc, particularly with respect to enfeebling magics. For nuking, absolutely MAcc helps a lot since RDM Elemental skill is relatively low. But for general enfeebling, it's as I stated earlier - stuff that's resistant is going to stay resistant, regardless of how much you overkill on skill or MAcc. There's a few (very few) cases of HNMs that only "sometimes" resist a spell or two, and for those, yes, you can tack on some MAcc and improve your results. Unfortunately, they are very much the exception.


Icemage

[Callisto]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

Bring up an older thread just to toss in my input. Sorry, I've only been on these forums a bit over a week, and I love discussing RDM stuff.

Are you participating in end-game? Or are you hypothesizing? Because I play end-game with some of the best RDMs on my server, with access to all of the best gear. Most of them have tried overstocking on skill/accuracy, and every last one of them came to the conclusion that it's just not possible to budge the resistances on the majority of the tougher HNMs that have natural resistances to certain spells (Kirin vs. Silence, for example). Hell, our Summoners have a better track record of casting Silence on Kirin with a /WHM subjob than our fully decked out Red Mages...

From my experience:

Fought Kirin at the beginning of last summer twice. I couldn't land a damn thing on him. Then I went merit crazy, tacked on 6 Enfeebling Merits, and a friend gave me an Enfeebling Earring. After this, I fought Kirin twice again, both times having noticeably different results. I was able to land Gravity regularly now, and Silence had about a 10-15% success rate(compared to like .0001% previously).

Anyways, how I approach RDM - my base set consists of this:

Enhancing Sword/Tariqah +1
Lightning Bow+1/P Tathlum(depends if I plan on meleeing)
AF1 Hat(until I get AF2 hat)
Spectacles(Swaps to corresponding torque for Enf/Ele/Enh/Dark spells)
Enfeebling Earring(Swaps to Ele/Abyssal for corresponding spells)
Moldy Earring
AF2 Body(unless it is an IT+ or endgame mob, then AF1 body)
AF2 Hands
Hale Ring
Genius Ring(Swaps to Sapphire for MND debuffs and SS)
Prism Cape
P Rope
AF1 Legs
AF2 Feet

When using Dark Magic, I swap to a set that has

Chasuble
Crim Fngr. Gauntlets
Mahatma Slops.

For Nuking VT+ I swap in:

Errant Body
AF2 pants

And for Melee/WS I swap to:

Ogre Mask
Assault Jerkin
Ruby Rings x2
Amemet Mantle
Warwolf Belt

I'm very particular about this setup because it allows me to maximize my magic skills for individual spells while the spell is firing, still have a healthy INT/MND boost for potency, melee effectively between casts, as well as having specialized sets for different situations(nuking, end-game debuffing, WS, etc.) Once I get Tamas or Omega I plan to take the Sapphire swap out of my MND debuffs, add Enfeebling Earring in that spot, and then use a Hollow Earring or something for meleeing, so that my magic skill earrings will only swap in when needed.

The downsides to my setup: MP is the largest noticeable detractor. I'm Elvaan so I run low in that department anyways. I have only one MP merit so far, I'm trying to work on this and also get a Hedgehog Bomb. However, most of this problem is mitigated by the fact that my debuffs rarely get resisted, and still keep a good amount of potency/duration. My personal belief being that I don't need 800+ MP if I stick my spells the first time and they last, and I do very well for only have 630~ MP with glace(as /DRK, 720~ as /BLM). Of course it's a little rough as main healer, but I always seem to manage well by making good use of Regen and such.

The other problem is of course the complicated macros(my actual gameplay as RDM is crazy busy with all of the extra button presses to swap between sets) and the burden on inventory. But I do feel strongly that my setup maximizes my effectiveness as RDM, or at least comes very, very close to it. I like to think that most people on Ramuh that have played with me would agree.

Anyways, that's just my way of doing things, this thread is great for info and seeing how other people approach the job!

[Aeni]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

This discussion is so valuable and reeks of sexiness that I vote that it either gets sticked or merged into any of the stickied discussion that are also useful. Maybe we should just lump all useful discussions into a sticked archive.

[Taskmage]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

I was thinking about this thread today in relation to this one: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/gen...hip-found.html

If there's a levelwise "correction" of magic accuracy like there is for physical accuracy, that might explain why no amount of gear seems to make a dent in the resist rates of high level HNMs. Kirin is level 92 according to the wiki. For a 75 melee, the level difference represents a penalty of -68 accuracy. If the magic accuracy penalty is anywhere near similar in magnitude, then there's no way we can possibly overcome it through gear.

[Aeni]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

Not all HNMs have a fixed level, however. Apparently, HNM spawn similar to normal mob spawns. You just never know what level they are with what stat they carry (A level xx Darterfly pops and you kill it and the next one that pops to replace this might be xx+1 in levels or xx-1 or the same xx)

That is why even long time HNMLS can attest that some days, they can down an HNM like Byakko faster than other days. While it somehow does tie in with other factors (Elemental Day and perhaps the Lunar Phase) if you have the same team that kills consistently the same way, then the results should always be within a consistent range. However, history does not ever show anyone killing high level HNM the same way over and over again in a consistent time range with the same consistent pattern. Some days you have a tougher time than others.

I'm not sure if Kirin is really fixed (Has anyone actually managed to hack into S-E's monster database?) however, that much level difference wouldn't really matter at that point.

For a 75 melee, the level difference represents a penalty of -68 accuracy. If the magic accuracy penalty is anywhere near similar in magnitude, then there's no way we can possibly overcome it through gear.

I don't think that we're factoring in everything with discussion to "magic hit rate". I'm sure there's a different system in place for magic, because I don't remember the last time I ever dodged a spell in this game, ever. Resistance is tied to spell penetration, which I believe magic accuracy is suppose to strengthen. Therefore, using the term "hit rate" is misleading. Thus, the relationship might not even be similar AT ALL. However, it's worth looking it up, but the task is daunting at best, considering the myriads of factors you need to take into account when talking about magic (Melee has way less factors external factors, as everything is resolved between the attacker and the target)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

I don't think that we're factoring in everything with discussion to "magic hit rate". I'm sure there's a different system in place for magic, because I don't remember the last time I ever dodged a spell in this game, ever.

Are you talking about full resist? If so, I see it a lot farming too weak monsters trying to cast things like Paralyze or Sleep on me.

Ninjutsu would always land (not counting those absorbed by shadows), but often do 0 damage. I think I saw elemental magic nukes landing on me for 0 damage before, but not absolutely sure. I've definitely had full resist on elemental enfeebs (Burn, Drown, etc.), though.

Come to think of it, wouldn't any Lv.92 HMN look at a Lv.75 player and sneer: "LOL. Too weak!"

[Icemage]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

Come to think of it, wouldn't any Lv.92 HMN look at a Lv.75 player and sneer: "LOL. Too weak!"

Pretty much.

You haven't really HNM'd until you've taken a solid hit from a CoP Wyrm and lived to tell the tale (my personal best is surviving a 975 damage Mighty Striked critical from Tiamat ... on my Taru WHM/BLM).

Seriously, though. HNM resists come in one of four major flavors:

(1) Normal. This means that its about as tough to land a spell as any typical monster at the same level. Paralyze against King Behemoth comes to mind. Of course, some HNMs are such high level that this isn't as trivial a task as it might otherwise seem.

(2) Resistant. Some HNMs have abnormal resistance to spells even when they're nominally weak to the element of the spell (Kirin vs. Silence for instance). Behemoth is highly resistant to Stun as another example.

(3) Immune. Some HNMs are simply immune to certain effects, and will resist them 100% of the time. Aspidochelone is Immune to Slow and Elegy effects, for instance.

(4) Progressive resistance. A few enemies build resistance to certain effects the more you use them. Bahamut #2 builds immunity to Stun, most HNMs build resistance to Sleep, and virtually all HNMs build resistance to Gravity.


Icemage

[Aeni]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

Are you talking about full resist?

No, I meant in the context of "dodge." Spell doesn't even land on you (never mind whether or not it resisted)

Also I wanted to add that I think Kirin at level 92 is probably accurate. I was thinking of other HNMs when I realized that Kirin is not your typical HNM. I consider Kirin more of an event "BOSS" so that it would come with a fixed stat+level as it spawns.

You haven't really HNM'd until you've taken a solid hit from a CoP Wyrm and lived to tell the tale (my personal best is surviving a 975 damage Mighty Striked critical from Tiamat ... on my Taru WHM/BLM).

Or fighting Kirin with just 11, having 1/2 the alliance drop dead ... and recover from that and go on to defeat it.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

No, I meant in the context of "dodge." Spell doesn't even land on you (never mind whether or not it resisted)

What is the difference between full resist and not landing, as you see it? >_>

[Raydeus]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

What is the difference between full resist and not landing, as you see it? >_>

Why would you ask that? It's pretty obvious even if the final result could be pretty much the same.

[Icemage]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

Why would you ask that? It's pretty obvious even if the final result could be pretty much the same.

The only difference I can tell between full resist (no effect) and heavy resist (very short term duration) is the difference in Enmity. Spells that actually land but fade fast cause more enmity than spells that fail to land at all. With most enfeebling spells, this is a minor issue, though it can be a factor with a few high-enmity spells like Bind and Sleep in certain circumstances.


Icemage