MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

[SharMarali]

All right, I did my homework before becoming frustrated and posting here. I searched the forums here. I searched the FFXI Wiki. And I'm completely frustrated at the lack of information out there. So I'm wondering if any of the RDMs out there have some answers.

Since 1 point of magic accuracy is assumed to = 1 point of enfeebling, elemental, divine, or dark magic... Why don't more RDMs use the Wise pants? I used them for awhile. I found I got laughed at for it, so I eventually got myself a pair of Zenith Slacks. I'm happy with the extra MP (not to mention the fact that it looks 100 times better), but I question whether it was a good decision on the whole.

FFXI Wiki indicates that there is a belief that 2 points of MND or INT equals 1 point of magic accuracy. So, if that's actually true, Zenith Slacks or Wise Braconi would be roughly equal for MND based enfeebles. For INT based things like Gravity and Blind though, I wonder if I've essentially shot myself in the foot.

Going along those same lines, I recently came into possession of a pair of Nashira Gages. Before anybody starts in on me, no, I did NOT take them from a summoner. I'm also a 75 SMN, and I acquired them specifically FOR my SMN. But since I have them anyway, and since my RDM *can* equip them, I'm wondering whether +3 magic accuracy in that slot might be better than the INT from the gloves I'm using now.

To be honest, my primary focus job-wise *is* my SMN. That's one reason I don't have a lot of knowledge of RDM endgame junk and I have to come here and ask stupid questions. My endgame activities are somewhat limited. I'm not in a "real" HNMLS and I'm certainly not about to go taking on Tiamat anytime soon. I do Dynamis twice a week, Limbus twice a week, and occassional sky runs with the same group that I do Limbus with. The majority of the time, I go as SMN, because there are a lot more RDMs out there than there are SMNs, and because my SMN is equipped better than my RDM. But now and then, for one reason or another, my RDM is needed, and I want to do as decent of a job as I can when I use it.

[Jei]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

They are personal preferences I guess. For me personally, when I already have +7 from torque and +15 from AF body and max merit, I don't see 2 magic accuracy being that appealing versus 7 INT 7 MND of errant pants. (make them 8 actually, I use HQ one)

My Rdm activity is 70% merit, 20% farming with LS and only 10% I get to use Rdm to fight gods. So this is a factor too I guess. If you fight gods a lot and want your magic to land you might want to go for more magic accuracy. But keep in mind you'll also give up a lot of potency when you give up your MND/INT too.

When I think about it... unless the piece really offers a LOT of magic accuracy or enfeeble skill (like at least 5) I'm not going to bother to switch to them. I really prefer to have MND and INT personally.... Because on gods, 2-3 magic accuracy won't help you land your spell any better anyway.

About Zenith slacks, I only see it being good if your race has a lot more HP than MP. I'd macro it on before convert and that's about it. I'm a taru and I don't even care about that thing.

I perfer Yigit gloves for its 5MND 5INT.

[Icemage]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

There's plenty of RDMs in my HNMLS, so I never really get asked to come RDM on fights unless it's one of those freak instances where almost all of our RDMs are offline (basically never).

However, the main reason Wise pants aren't often used isn't so much that Magic Accuracy isn't good (it is!). It's just that when you're at end-game, enemies tend to be higher level than you, and thus have higher stats - and that stat differential hurts your chances to land spells. Errant/Mahatma pants cover a lot of that shortfall and give a hefty shot of -Enmity too, regardless of what you're fighting, so most of the tests I've seen (and most of the RDMs I know who have tried them) indicate that the net effect on success rate is roughly comparable, which makes the Errant/Mahatma Slops the nod with their increased spell potency and lower enmity rating.


Icemage

[Raydeus]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

FFXI Wiki indicates that there is a belief that 2 points of MND or INT equals 1 point of magic accuracy. So, if that's actually true, Zenith Slacks or Wise Braconi would be roughly equal for MND based enfeebles. For INT based things like Gravity and Blind though, I wonder if I've essentially shot myself in the foot.

Nope, that means Errant/Mahatma would put both Zenith and fuglyWise out of my gear list. Not only they give you +7/+8 on the stats that matter, but if the 2 MND/INT = 1 acc theory is true (which I think it is) then Errant would also give you more +M.acc than Wise.

(So basically what Icemage said )


Now for MND and INT based spells I use gear macros, that means 14 out of the 16 slots I can put gear on (I only have a crappy MP ammo really) are filled with either +MND or +INT and +skill items acording to the spell.

That lets me cast with +37-48ish INT/MND or something like that and +15-24 skill depending on the situation (without considering food). I have my best results going the stat>skill way, but most RDM do the oposite (skill>stat), it's a matter of personal preference and situational really (sometimes kinda random too) so I'm prepared for both.

Edit> PS: That also means I carry around more than 50 items for equip macros because I use all 3.5 sets of gear when I play RDM (INT, MND, MP with +skill being the other .5 because I only carry 3 pieces or so)

Edit +1 > Zenith would be good for MP set (for Convert/full rest) but not worth the hassle for me, RSE has +32 mp (I'm a hume) without the -HP so it would depend on your Race to see if Zenith has any use as part of the MP set.

[SharMarali]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

Since a couple people asked, I'm elvaan.

[eva00r]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

If you want a single one that can be use with any occasions, Moriggan Slops or Nashira Seraweels should be the answer. Else, you can always swapping in and out your equipments while casting specific spells.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

Ok, bottom line is that Skill helps duration and potency.

Magic Accuracy is your ability to land the spell in the first place and somewhat affects duration.

MND/INT affect the potency and somewhat affect the ability to land.

Simple analogy, if I'm fighting a tricky monster, and I stack on the MND (I can get +42 from gear) and I cast Paralyze, assuming it sticks (at +42 MND it's almost never resisted) it will be VERY potent.

However, the duration is painfully short.

If I was to stack on Enfeebling Magic gear (IE, AF body, Enf Neck, etc) the duration would be a very long time, and I would only have a moderate potency.

To be frank, this is only a rough outline, because no one knows 100% for sure.

But to be honest, it's situational. For instance, my Paralyze and Slow macros have me in full MND. They're cheap MP spells, and the recast if I'm resisted is menial, cause I'll probably fire off a Refresh or a Haste and retry.

My Silence Macro on the other hand has full Enfeebling, and MND in places where I don't sacrifice Enfeebling Magic. This is because a spell like Silence only needs to stick, and stick long.

Blind, I'm sure is multiplied by INT the same way Paralyze and Slow are multiplied by MND, but I haven't casted Blind in exp since the last 60s. Gravity only needs to stick and stick long, just like Silence.

Sleeps, I stack enfeebling, because resistance rate and duration are crucial when dealing with Sleep.

Now you probably figured out that INT and MND are pretty much the strength of the spells. This is true, especially seen at lower levels when INT and MND gear are all you have access to.

Magic Accuracy.... I honestly use this situationally as well, but it plays second fiddle to pure stats and pure skill.... In certain situations. Magic Accuracy seems to me to be a modifier for whatever you're focusing on. For instance:
On Enfeebles, you'll see my Wise Cap and my AF Body
On Nukes, you'll see my AF Hat and my Wise Body.

These are the generalizations I've come to in my macros.

But in Lufaise Meadows, my enfeebling setup is Wise Cap, AF Body, Enf Torque, Wise Gloves, Wise Braconi, Errant Pigaches.

I did some tests on Too Weak mobs, and when your skill outclasses your enemy's, INT pushes your nukes further. In full MAcc, I did less on the mobs than in Full INT.

Applying this on a graduated scale and talking about exp parties post-70, it all depends.

The number one thing to know about being a RDM is "Situationalism." (Apparently, that's not a word...)

If you're chaining VTs that die fast, stack MND and INT. If you're fighting ITs that take a while (Lufaise Meadows comes to mind), put on the skill.

I hope I don't think of anything else new after I post this (I usually always do ), so I've uploaded the 5 macro sets that I use.

[Digitai]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

Hi^^ my first post! anyways sooo this is what i think of things, The Wise Braconi +1 are the best. ok so you have the errant slops and the mahatma, if 2int OR 2mnd = 1 acc (which i will agree with because by the looks of all the armor and all the stats none of it is overpowering to the other) then the errants have is .5 int or .5 mnd, and the mahtma gives you 1 whole point either int or mnd, its not both. ok so you lose .5 or 1 but with the +1 Wise you get +20mp and -5 enmity which Kills the errant and is 1 enmity point better than the mahtma. it is, like Jei said, a personal preference, but all in all stat wise the Wise ^_~ is the wisest. you get 20mp which i would trade for .5 or 1 int anyday and either 1 less or 2 less enmity not to mention the absence of all the negative stats and the acc +2 and to me RDM Only i love. ppl think the wise braconis are ugly and i think they look awesome with my rse tier2 feet (mithra). anyways just my opinion and i hoped someone likes what i said, that care everyone and have fun^^

[Icemage]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

Wise set is possibly the ugliest set of JSE in the game.

It's not so much that the Accuracy isn't good, it's just that at end-game the extra stats from Errant/Mahatma is better unless you've got INT and/or MND overflowing from other gear already (unlikely in the extreme). Otherwise it's just somewhat useful for nuking purposes or for enfeebles where stats don't improve potency (Gravity, Silence, Blind), and for Convert purposes. Not bad, not amazing.


Icemage

[Taskmage]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

Digitai, what are you talking about with errants and mahatmas giving .5 or 1 int and mnd? Mahatmas give +8 int and mnd, which would equal +4 magic accuracy under our assumption, in addition to enhanced potency of nukes and slow, stronger stoneskin, etc. From a standpoint of spell accuracy and effectiveness, Mahatmas are clearly better. I suppose you could argue preference for the 20 extra mp and 1 additional point of -enmity, but personally I would never make that trade and I can't imagine anyone happily paying 2-4x the price of mahatmas to buy the wise+1.

As Icemage said, wise set is really situational to spells that you can't help with any other stat. Personally the only piece I use is the hat, which is really still an arguable choice over elite beret. I stick with it because the beret doesn't help my dark magic accuracy. In the body slot I'd obviously rather have the tabard for enfeebles, and the stats from errant are nice for anything else. I've already expressed my preference for mahatmas in the leg slot.

If you have Nashira Gages I'd say stick with them. Making our assumption about the relation betweens stats and accuracy, there are very few gloves that outclass Nashiras for offensive spellcasting. Yigits like Jei said might be slightly better for having almost enough int and mnd to match Nashira's acc plus some magic attack bonus. Genie Gages might be better for nuking things where resists are a major concern. The new Morrigan gloves pretty much beat other options hands down, with both +5 magic acc and +5 magic attack bonus.

[Digitai]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

ok if you break it down like i was tring to do it looks like this,
wise+1= magic acc +3 +20mp +-5enmity
errents= magic acc +3.5 +-3 enmity
mahatmas= magic acc +4 +-4 enmity

my fault in sayin .5 int and 1 int, its .5 magic acc or 1 magic acc.
to me all in all judging by the stats the Wise +1's rock the other 2. +20 mp (to me) is better than 1 magic acc and you get an extra enmity point.
if i were not going to wear the Wise+1's i would for sure go with the Jet Seraweels
Jet Seraweels= magic acc +3.5 +15mp +-4 enmity
Jets kill Errents and Mahatmas and are o-so-close to the wise+1, but still are not as good. well i hope this helped clearing things up.
and 1 last thing, OMG the Morrigan's Cuffs are so incredibly better than anything else a rdm can put on there hands that i still can't believe it. they're even better than any leg armor a rdm can wear. i don't really understand that
Thats what i was talking about Taskmage sorry for the confusion^^

[BurningPanther]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

Are you kidding? That Morrigan's robe gives me a stiffy.

[Icemage]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

2 MND is not 1 MACC, nor is 2 INT equal to 1 MACC. They are not directly equivalent. Overloading on MND or INT will not necessarily make your spells any more accurate. I can load tons of MND on my WHM 75, but without my Enfeebling Magic gear to help me I can't land an enfeeble on anything VT+ to save my life (I'm talking about gear and effects that add over 50 MND total). With Enfeebling gears (+32 skill) equipped, I land pretty much any spell I want on anything except resistant HNMs.

Just as overloading on INT does not tangibly help black magic resistance rates beyond a certain point, overloading MND or INT does not visibly help most other magics once your stats rise above that of your target.

The truth, however, is that RDM's most important magics (Enfeebling) are about as accurate as they will ever be, with or without Wise set gears, since RDM Enfeebling skill is so high, with many options to push it even higher. It's for this reason that Errant/Mahatma is preferred; in the absence of the need for better accuracy, more potency is where you want to be.


Icemage

[Mhurron]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

Wise set is possibly the ugliest set of JSE in the game.

I like the look of Wise gear.

It's not so much that the Accuracy isn't good, it's just that at end-game the extra stats from Errant/Mahatma is better unless you've got INT and/or MND overflowing from other gear already (unlikely in the extreme).

What exactly would overflowing MND be? At what point does adding more MND not give reasonable results?

[Icemage]

Re: MND & INT vs. Magic Accuracy

I like the look of Wise gear.

It looks like a muddy brownish blue version of a cross between Bard and WHM AF. Ick. To each his own, I suppose (looks better on Tarus than most other races - at least we have cute factor to override the ugly).

What exactly would overflowing MND be? At what point does adding more MND not give reasonable results?

Depends on what you're targetting. For anything VT or less (anything you'd see in a merit party, for instance), I'd say you'd start seeing diminishing returns as early as +15MND, and probably notice nothing in terms of accuracy payoff beyond +30.

For HNMs, though, they tend to have very, very high stats since they're often very, very high level. Nidhogg/Fafnir, for instance, is level 90 - to enfeeble him you'd probably need at least +25 or more before you'd start even seeing any diminishing returns with respect to accuracy, and maybe +40 before you'd hit the point of zero visible payoffs. These are ballpark figures, since different races have different amounts of base MND, and since I'm not a full-time RDM I'm not 100% sure of the break points for various enemies. Even so, I am certain my numbers are at least close to reality, as these are approximately the figures I'm seeing being used by the skilled RDMs I see every day. Magic accuracy merits also figure heavily into these calculations.


Icemage