My beef about the lazy MP using jobs...

[Gentoo]

Re: My beef about the lazy MP using jobs...

Most WHM and SMN/WHM let the party members health of 2-3 members get to the dark yellow or light yellow before they start healing, and almost none of them use [Regen].

Just to pick on a nit here (and to add a slight echo to Sevenpointflaw's post).

IIRC, not using Regen one of deadly sins -- the lesser known ninth deadly sin, subsection b.

Waiting until someone is in the yellow before curing isn't necessarily a sign of being lazy. Waaaay back when I went through the Dunes the first time, one of the lessons I learned was not to waste MP keeping every party member topped off on HP. That lesson is just as valid now as it was when I a WHM10 with no subjob.

If you're not the Tank, and you're not stealing hate regularly, chances are you're safe, and the WHM can hit you with a MP efficient Curaga <n> post Battle, or as Sevenpointflaw pointed out, let a Regen do it's job. There's just little reason for to Cure someone that's in the yellow who isn't going to be taking hits anytime soon.

Which leads me to my beef with players in MP using jobs that seem to be of the mindset that if they don't use it, they'll lose it. More often than not, I'll encounter the overzealous RDM or /whm that can't stand to see anything other than a full HP bar, and will end up doling out Cures before I can take care the situation in a more efficient manner (either casting over my Regen <n>, or using Cure III to heal 86 HP.... )

[Vaigrant]

Re: My beef about the lazy MP using jobs...

Since peopel seem to be sharing stories I will too =P. I once had a PT with 2 Rdms, I was of course one of them. Well I though Awesome no stopping and I have 50% of the Refreshign I had to do. . .well we split Refrehs and Enfeebles but the other Rdm would NEVER Convert EVER.

They just sat down and rested MP, the rest of the PT and myself were like Wtf, I used convert I was all set to go but it was just wasted. . .they just sat there >.>
That kinda got my goat.

[tdh]

Re: My beef about the lazy MP using jobs...

Since peopel seem to be sharing stories I will too =P. I once had a PT with 2 Rdms, I was of course one of them. Well I though Awesome no stopping and I have 50% of the Refreshign I had to do. . .well we split Refrehs and Enfeebles but the other Rdm would NEVER Convert EVER.

They just sat down and rested MP, the rest of the PT and myself were like Wtf, I used convert I was all set to go but it was just wasted. . .they just sat there >.>
That kinda got my goat.

Did the RDM ~need~ to Convert?

There have been partied where I've Converted 2 or 3 times total in 3 hours. Just comes down to MP consumption. Were they slacking in their job? Or were they depleting all of their MP, and instead of Converting, they just rested to full?

Some people seem to think RDMs should Convert every 10 minutes. If they have 250MP when Convert is up, blow it all on nukes or something else so you can Convert. Others seem to say use it when you need it, but try to find a happy medium.

[Murphie]

Re: My beef about the lazy MP using jobs...

If they were sitting, then yes, they needed to convert. Personally, I feel that if you're not converting when you can, you're just wasting the ability.

[Lasareth]

Re: My beef about the lazy MP using jobs...

If they were sitting, then yes, they needed to convert. Personally, I feel that if you're not converting when you can, you're just wasting the ability.

Hum, I'm not entirely sure I agree with this. There are times when a RDM can sit, and there are times when we cannot. Convert is there to cover the times we cannot.

For example, when I start my chain, I alternate between refreshes and hastes to minimize the time it takes to completely and appropriately buff those that need to be buffed. There are times when I've completely enfeebled the enemy, have everyone up to their standards, and can take a breather. I swap out my HMP gear and sit. What do I lose? Maybe 1 or 2 resisted nukes that have no significant impact on battle? Granted, when there's skillchains, I have an opportunity to get up/stay up and throw a magic burst in, which is in my opinion the only reason to cast an elemental damage spell. Standing around idle is a terrible waste of time, and unless you're a main healer, you should have some time to sit (this, of course, illustrates the importance of context: in order to accurately asses sit time, you need to know the party setup).

Converting is more than just using the ability every 10 minutes. It requires a gauge of your party's momentum, and Convert is there to keep the momentum, not attempt to artificially inflate it and potentially throw it off-balance.

Now, to get back on subject,

Communication is one of the most important aspects of the party, and if you find that others are being subpar in their communication, the responsibility must fall on you to break the barrier if you want to say that it was the others' faults to be blamed.

Language is often not a problem, the autotranslator works wonders (example: [party member] Haste [tank], I refresh [blm1]). However, the trouble arrives in that some people are either forgetful, incompetent, or defiant enough to try to cover your tracks, even if you're doing an optimum job already. In that case it's fine to blame someone else on a bad job.

So the focus of the party is balance and momentum, and it's up to the support line (that includes rdms) to keep that balance. If, for example, the RDM uses all his MP curing, and the WHM is twiddling his thumbs, then there is a lack of proper balance in the party which needs to be addressed through communication ("I'm noticing you're not curing, mr WHM, please cure when he's in orange" or conversely, "I'm noticing you're doing my responsibility, mr RDM, please have faith in me").

It goes beyond that, too, though. Black mages will often rest a while and gain large amounts of mp during battle and further on cast some significantly strong and butt-kicking spells. Does his temperance show a lack of skill or knowledge? Absolutely not. Perhaps he's got a good grasp of the tank's enmity and is casting so as not to steal the monster's focus.

In the case of Black mages, I think that their ability to maintain momentum is directly linked to the available enmity among the group... I for one would not cast a damaging spell if I knew that there was no way the monster would get off me until I died. Doing so would of course get me killed and ultimately upset the momentum of the group.

So you've got to take a lot of things into consideration, save for blatant wastes of time (most significant in this is the puller, who is the main source of momentum within the group. If he waits till everyone's at full mp when it only takes 1/4 mp to win a fight, he's doing the party a terrible disservice). What you should be more focused on is whether or not you're maintaining your element of the momentum. If you're holding up the group, then you are in a critical situation and need to do some hard evaluation of your own abilities.

[Murphie]

Re: My beef about the lazy MP using jobs...

Hum, I'm not entirely sure I agree with this. There are times when a RDM can sit, and there are times when we cannot. Convert is there to cover the times we cannot.

For example, when I start my chain, I alternate between refreshes and hastes to minimize the time it takes to completely and appropriately buff those that need to be buffed. There are times when I've completely enfeebled the enemy, have everyone up to their standards, and can take a breather. I swap out my HMP gear and sit. What do I lose? Maybe 1 or 2 resisted nukes that have no significant impact on battle? Granted, when there's skillchains, I have an opportunity to get up/stay up and throw a magic burst in, which is in my opinion the only reason to cast an elemental damage spell. Standing around idle is a terrible waste of time, and unless you're a main healer, you should have some time to sit (this, of course, illustrates the importance of context: in order to accurately asses sit time, you need to know the party setup).

Converting is more than just using the ability every 10 minutes. It requires a gauge of your party's momentum, and Convert is there to keep the momentum, not attempt to artificially inflate it and potentially throw it off-balance.

Yes, but in the situation I was referring to the RDM was holding the party up by sitting instead of using convert. Sure, if you've got a moment, take a knee. That's just good common sense. But if you don't, and convert is up, by god use it.

Otherwise, I completely agree. A good player will learn how best to manage their MP, and will understand how to adjust that according to the mobs targeted, the party setup, and the behavior of the other mages. But communication is absolutely key in doing that. I know that I always do what I can to work through differences in communication like that, but there are definitely times when other players make that difficult or impossible. Generally in those situations I either make do, or leave the party, depending on the particular issue.

[Lasareth]

Re: My beef about the lazy MP using jobs...

Apologies then if I misread the situation My inference was hasty based on the short story. I've been in similar circumstances, as well. Or the opposite situation: another Red Mage would insist on doing everything himself, including that which I had arranged privately with him that I would do. Eventually, he would have depleted his MP pool and Convert when I had the ability to cut his downtime in half and keep things going.

It's frustrating, and sometimes there's no changing it short of a party swap. But, alas, sometimes invites are all too rare and precious to gamble leaving

[Sereveyl]

Re: My beef about the lazy MP using jobs...

I gotta go with Sevenpoint also - I have been in some majorly efficient parties that barely needed a healer at all. I stuck with regenning the tank, made sure buffs were always up, and the rest of the time I'm on my butt and feeling vaguely badly about it. I'd toss some Banishes in there, too and nobody complained, but sometimes it's just how it goes.

I also gotta agree with there's nothing like casting a Regen and seeing somebody pop a Cure III. And then I cackle inside when the other curer draws hate and gets thwapped for doing it. Yeah, see there's a method to my madness, I'm not a total newbie....

[Akashimo]

Re: My beef about the lazy MP using jobs...

This happened in the citadel earlier today. I was on rdm/whm (main heal >.<) in this party with a blm. Now my refresh cycle, is me, haste nin, fresh blu, haste blue, fresh blm. Here's the thing, first thing she casts, generally when i get to Poison 2... Bio 2, over writting my Dia 2 wtf. Then she just spams, stonaga 2, wateraga 2.... Blizzard 2. Okay... i though no refresh til she stops overwriting my dia >.>; Also she seems to be also under casting my cures mid casting too. Never took the hint about the dia bio issue until the leader and me asked her twice each to stop when it was getting to the point where i'd just wanna fake a d/c (which i RARELY do). Then poof she d/c after a puffed "red dot of death" >>; Gotten a whm so i could focus on my enfeebles and do some nukes. Whm seem to took the double casting hastes. So i just let him have that. Meh. I do remember this party in bibiki on my whm where this rdm just stool there and refresh, enfeeble, go afk and repeat. o.O Luckily i had smn and we had a brd. Regen II and III took care of my job with the occasional Cure V with some of the pld's Cure IV on himself. Also some smns that just do the old smn, bp dismiss try to take over curing even though there's a whm and you got refresh o.O; I don't think most smns understand the dd role when there's a whm and refresher with them o.O; espically when they could go 2 fights with a pet out.

[Esoa]

Re: My beef about the lazy MP using jobs...

Some jobs simply have it so much easier than others. Play a MNK, DRG, DRK, WAR and you basically just auto-attack and do a weaponskill while reading a book. When I'm pushing 40k per level and the grind really hits sometimes it just isn't worth it mentally for me to erase that -VIT debuff on the NIN tank when playing my RDM/WHM. OMG did I slow down xp by 0.05%!? When half the PT's job consists of nothing but shopping at the AH for uber gearz while I have to cast multiple Refreshes, enfeeble every mob, backup (or main) heal, silena nearly every fight, risk death trying to sleep adds, and sometimes haste people as well...frankly I don't care if they think I'm lazy. So what if I'm not playing at 100%. My 100% is 10x as much effort as your 100% so STFU.

PS: No one ever complains about my laziness I'm just venting frustration at these long levels and my jealousy at how easy some jobs have it.

[Akashimo]

Re: My beef about the lazy MP using jobs...

heh, that's why i lvl my mithra char, just to take a break from a job that needs a lot of brain power or focus. Though if the party is gonna wipe boost > chi blast > voke > hundred fists usually helps Now that part takes focus.

[Aeni]

Re: My beef about the lazy MP using jobs...

See, now I take a little offense at this, having been called (by a RDM) a lazy XP leech that needed to be booted (because apparently fully hasting the party, keeping them alive with nothing but Regen II/III, and still having 900+ mp is a bad thing).

Red mage was an idiot, end of story. I have no idea why this is even being brought up again. One thing that wasn't mentioned was the fact that you might be nicely geared for optimal +MP and being a Taru and thus, you might actually have been consuming more MP than a Galkan WHM could ever have... moral of the story, don't judge a person's performance by their mp bar.

However, on the flip side, I was in a party once on my RDM with a hume WHM who always had 100% mp. Problem was, she was AFK 80% of the time. NOW THAT'S A VERY VALID REASON for kicking her out. =/

Waiting until someone is in the yellow before curing isn't necessarily a sign of being lazy. Waaaay back when I went through the Dunes the first time, one of the lessons I learned was not to waste MP keeping every party member topped off on HP. That lesson is just as valid now as it was when I a WHM10 with no subjob.

Situational. You don't want to do this at undead camp, right? Yet, this is where my beef comes in. A WHM watching hentai on TV and barely curing with a PT in said undead camp is asking for a wipe.

[Gentoo]

Re: My beef about the lazy MP using jobs...

Situational. You don't want to do this at undead camp, right? Yet, this is where my beef comes in. A WHM watching hentai on TV and barely curing with a PT in said undead camp is asking for a wipe.

Well, yeah ... I'm not entirely sure that is germane to the conversation which is about being lazy, not about being negligent -- but I understand your feeling the two are inextricably linked.

Any time any player of any job fails to perform their function because they're distracted, it's frustrating. Anytime someone decides that watching TV, making a sandwich, or changing the oil in their moped is more interesting than playing their part in the party they just joined, then it's time to kick them or leave.

[Vaigrant]

Re: My beef about the lazy MP using jobs...

With my playing style I can't afford to not pay attention. I run through Refresh cycles, if there is no whm or an unwilling one Ill do Haste and my weak Regen on the Main tank. After that I run through my slue of Enfeebles.

Around there is when if its a mob that needs Dispeling Ill dispel, Ill try to take a knee for a tick or two if I can afford it but I rarely get past 1, as I usually see an Enfeeble fade, or a party members HP is falling a litle to low to be safe, or I gotta Dispel again. So stand up Enfeeb/Heal/Dispel, try to take a knee, and usually I get maybe 3-4 chances to knee during a fight, which helps my maintain MP well enough.

Some Pts I almost never use convert, generally cause theres no need too, some Pts theres no choice but to. Just had to clarify on that story I told, the Rdm held up the Party in Down-Time when a Convert could have saved us that, we had up to a chain #3 and then waited for their MP to regen from rest. . .which was a while cause this was prior to Dark Staff ; ;.