Raise to raise!

[Tomatoes]

Re: Raise to raise!

Fair enough. As far as RDMs specifically, the impact is largely minimal as far as xp/hr. Few if any critical applications rely on xp restored by Raise, even as a peripheral factor (we all have our buffers now don't we?). It's just a nice perk, and another small step in solidifying RDM as a superior main healer to WHM in many many situations (sadly, I think).

[Aeni]

Re: Raise to raise!

Tomatoes,

No offense taken, but my post there was to be taken in it's entirety.

What I really mean is that "enhancing" raise is not going to get WHMs any more invites than they receive right now. Because, in the grand scheme of things, a couple of thousand exp isn't going to make or break a PT, especially if it's a long time PT and one of those TP burn ones that draw in as much as 12,000 exp an hour (10,000 or so with downtime from a raise sickness, but I've seen NINs get up and tank Bune before with raise sickness on >.> )

What we need is to have monsters that give a ton of exp, but do so much damage that a WHM is necessary. Now, people will argue that parties will still continue to fight the mobs they're fighting now. I disagree. When those camps become suffocating from overexposure and popularity (Think CN on a busy day or GC) the veterans will look to alternatives. Put in alternatives that will still allow them to get a basic semblance to their gratuitous exp flow and they'll go to those camps, if it means they'll have to do away with one less TP and get a WHM to main heal.

Double Post Edited:
I also want to add some other things here that may dissuade TP burn.

Add new mob abilities to existing "popular exp mobs" and new mobs which BLUs CANNOT learn and that are TP dependant, AoE and spammable at around 40% of mob's HP. These cause status effects that will reduce the effectiveness and speed of the kill. Having this ability will re-shift focus on trying to not give mob too much TP and as well as a party wanting a QUALITY SC going off with a very strong MB so that the mob will die very, very fast. Having a mob's magic resistance nullified by the appropriate SC damage (Elements from level 2 and 3) would be a nice touch.

Also add in 3 new teleports for a level 70 WHM. These ports will send PTs to new or existing exp areas.

Give BLMs Escape II at level 70 which allows PTs to "shift" 1/2 of an area or beginning of the current zone to "escape" from adds or links and on a 10 minute recast (So it can't be abused for moving large parties around quickly)

This makes having both a WHM and a BLM popular again.

[tdh]

Re: Raise to raise!

This is another "Add" for RDM, but I don't have this strangle hold on my EXP like so many other people do. I have no problems eating a R1 at any point in the game, and I have no problems HP'n if needed. For me Raise is just so I don't have to walk back to where ever the hell I was. 2,300 EXP isn't even a drop in a bucket. I've had nights where I gained 30k EXP in just under 3 nights, or doing a quick run to Mamool Ja Staging point and gained 15k in just over 1.5hrs. So the EXP penalty hasn't ever really bothered me unless I some how die several times in a party, and that pisses me off for different reasons. (Depending on my food, that can be expensive or extremely wasteful.)

I think the reason RDM is called to be Main Heal so often is because we don't run out of MP. WAR, WAR, MNK NIN, BRD, RDM party will never stop. 6MP a tick for me, 940MP combined with Convert means I never run out of MP. I've found WHMs who didn't even have that much MP, and they of course don't have Convert and can't Refresh themselves.

On top of that reason, I find it very difficult to even find a WHM at Lv.75 to EXP with. The only ones I ever EXP with are in my LS, and one of them has RDM to Lv.75 as well, so she usually goes as RDM for the same reasons I listed above.

[Tomatoes]

Re: Raise to raise!

*blinks*

Sorry Aeni, but I really think your ideas aren't completely thought out. They sound kinda nice in general, but don't align well when you get down to the actual game mechanics.

You want a mob that does so "much damage that a WHM is necessary?" Essentially, something that requires C5 over C4? Sounds like HNM, but people don't really XP off those. What tdh said is exactly right:

the reason RDM is called to be Main Heal so often is because we don't run out of MP.

Any mob that requires C5 over C4 would overwhelm a single main healer, RDM or WHM.

My point wasn't that boosting R1 suddenly kills off WHM as main healer or that it's suddenly necessary to redesign parts of the game to balance this. People will go on xp'ing like they always have. I was trying to say that the gap between RDM and WHM main healing widened ever so slightly and that it would have been nice to see high level WHMs get a boost as well to one of the key spells that define their job. My suggestions for R2/3 are neither necessary, nor gamebreaking. They would be merely nice perks that benefit everybody, whether in XP or not.

Double Post Edited:
Speaking of which, I don't recall ever having to deal with "Weakened State" in any previous Final Fantasy games. I know this doesn't have any real relevance, otherwise, I ought to be arguing why XI doesn't have Economizers or Offerings (no, not that rotting piece of meat). Those would obviously be out of balance in XI. But the more I think of it, the more suspicious I get of SE for putting in "Weakened State" at all. It's not like they didn't come up with a million other things to sink our time with already.

[Lilani]

Re: Raise to raise!

In the new update a couple of inderect changes have helped us out. It says Raise I recovers 50% exp lost now instead of 25%. Do you think this will actually stop people demanding R2 or R3?

I felt fairly useless having a raise nobody wants, and this has made me very happy.. but do you think this will catch on with the wider playerbase, or is 50% loss still too great?

In all honesty, unless I've deleveled and know I'd be far from releveling, I never care which raise I get. Even R1 is better than waiting an hour, timing out, and getting sent to your home point with no exp recovered. Plus, who wants to wait that long anyway? Usually, when I log into FFXI, I don't have much time to sit around and do nothing. So I'll take whatever I get, whether that be R1 or R3, they'll still get a thank you.

Oh, and for the subject on RDMs being asked to main heal because "we don't run out of MP," I beg to differ. Quite a few times I've been asked to main heal as RDM, and if the setup is ok, then I will. However, there is such a thing as being overwhelmed. Between refresh, haste, enfeebles, and healing, 734 MP doesn't seem like a lot after a while. And if things really get bad and the puller is just plain nuts, then I can (and have) run out of MP with 3 minutes left until convert.

Of all mages (apart from BLU, PLD, and DRK) RDM has the lowest MP, and yet (in many but not all situations) we end up using more than any of the others. There is such a thing as being overloaded, no matter what job you are.

[Aeni]

Re: Raise to raise!

Any mob that requires C5 over C4 would overwhelm a single main healer, RDM or WHM.

Read it entirely. Adding new Status Effect (AoE) and putting in new -na at 50+ (To combat future level cap increases) would make WHMs desirable. A monster that AoEs a lot will need the appropriate -ga which a RDM will NOT have. And trust me, if RDM main heals with these things in place:

-AoE damage + status
-AoE status reducing effectiveness of melee
-changing utsusemi

All of a sudden, you'd want something more than a main healer "wannabe." I realize most RDMs will come here to choke my neck with regards to this, but having a couple of new enfeebling spells which can make or break a traditional party setup to balance things off will still make a WHM wanted alongside with a RDM and a BLM.

Double Post Edited:
Speaking of which, I don't recall ever having to deal with "Weakened State" in any previous Final Fantasy games. I know this doesn't have any real relevance, otherwise, I ought to be arguing why XI doesn't have Economizers or Offerings (no, not that rotting piece of meat). Those would obviously be out of balance in XI. But the more I think of it, the more suspicious I get of SE for putting in "Weakened State" at all. It's not like they didn't come up with a million other things to sink our time with already.

It's there for a reason. It introduces an angle meant to reel in the recklessness of players who do things with careless abandon. Weakened state is not a stranger to mmorpg. WoW has them if you opt to raise at the healer rather than run back to retrieve your corpse. There are job classes with raise in the game, though, but due to the timers on them and the sheer number of peopel in "Raids" a total wipe is still an inconvenient thing and the big bosses have massive regen and abilities to heal to full if left unclaimed or deaggroed longer than 5 seconds...

[Tomatoes]

Re: Raise to raise!

I was considering a response, but after considering for a while... I'm gonna regretfully conclude that you have no clue what you're talking about, and it's pointless to continue debating with you about something that isn't even on-topic. You don't even remember your own words.

You suddenly bring up AoE status when before you were talking about a mob that can "do so much damage that a WHM is necessary." What the heck?! Now, maybe in some general vague sense, you could have been implying status effect here, but I think most people would read that as a quantifiable amount of raw melee damage. Hell, I think _I_ was the one that mentioned 38+ status effects/-nas before this as an undesirable way to boost WHM. Not to mention the whole Utsusemi/PLD tangent. Besides that your "traditional PT setup" isn't even really traditional. A real traditional setup would be WAR tank with no advanced subjobs, not PLD.

To be fair, in a broad sense, I do like the general gist of some of your ideas. But, you are out of tune with actual game mechanics.

[nazlfrag]

Re: Raise to raise!

It makes them that much less attractive for XP PTs vs. main healer RDM. WHM was already being a bit marginalized as far as desirability in burn-style xp. I think WHM is remains a good job to have, as its baseline usefulness through simple and ample curing is still undeniable.

I should have seen this coming, that this would be seen as a 'WHM Nerf'. Well I started it, so I'll do my best to be fair and impartial. Quite the opposite from a nerf, I see it as a boost to whitemages, as well as redmages, paladins, reraise earrings and more. The fact that it benefits redmages more than whitemages seems to be the issue. You seemed to have summed up well why it isn't a big issue though, as the baseline usefulness of a WHM hasn't changed at all.

I like the idea of WHM getting a boost to raise II and III, but these are already powerful spells.

I don't like the idea of mobs who need a 'traditional party setup' or 'need a PLD' as there is no such thing. Player ingenuity made NIN capable of taking on 'PLD-only" mobs once before, and will presumably again. 'Traditional party setups' are a misnomer. You just mean a party with a PLD and WHM, which as far as I know can function perfectly well already and does not need any boosts or 'special mobs'. How would you prevent a manaburn or tpburn party from fighting these mobs? Status effects that only a whm can remove? You have those already with evasion down etc. Sure, people can /WHM for erase, but they can't divine seal it for an aga effect.

When those camps become suffocating from overexposure and popularity (Think CN on a busy day or GC) the veterans will look to alternatives. Put in alternatives that will still allow them to get a basic semblance to their gratuitous exp flow and they'll go to those camps, if it means they'll have to do away with one less TP and get a WHM to main heal.

There already are more xp camps than GC or CN. The exp flow is already far better in these other camps due to no overcrowding problems. Needing a WHM has nothing to do with this. I don't see how switching from a RDM main healer to a WHM will mean one less TP slot.

I also want to add some other things here that may dissuade TP burn.

Well you will fail, because TP burn is what the players want to do and choose to do. You should look at how to make WHM attractive to a TP burn party instead. Your 'status effects that will reduce the effectiveness and speed of the kill' seem to require a bard more than a white mage to solve.

Encouraging skillchains and the like is unneccesary, the extra damage is already incentive enough. If people choose not to do it, they forego the added damage and magicburst possibilities. I don't see how to make a SC+MB more desirable than it already is.

New teleports would be nice, especially to the new areas, but since when did a pt invite rely on your teleports? I can harly see this as making WHM more desirable, except with tele-shouts.

As for a half effect-Escape II, it's just silly. BLM already has Escape, why have a weaker version at a higher tier? What happens when you 'escape' to an aggro zone? Or worse, to an NM spawnpoint?

And why the constant refrence to changing utsusemi? Lets say they made NIN completely undesirable as a tank, it wouldn't change the main advantages of main healer RDM vs. WHM. RDM will have Convert and Refresh, WHM will have Divine Veil, Cure V, Protectra+Shellra, Raise II & III and Benediction. Ninjas not having shadows means nothing in this comparison.

I would propose a minimal boost to the cure spell caps for WHM, say +20% phased in at a later level. This would place them firmly as the foremost healers, (though they already are these) and might actually help them get invites.

Edit: >> "Level 50 (To combat future level cap increases)"; in which case you could /RDM for convert, and suddenly the redmage advantage disappears. Pity there will be no increase to the cap (as stated several times in SE interviews), because that's what the merit system is for.

[Vaigrant]

Re: Raise to raise!

Just to add my two cents, Im still only a 54 Rdm. But I just refuse to main heal. I always make the argumetn that if you want a healer get a WHM. I hardly see how increasing Rasie by 25% of its origional ability is going to further lower the desire for WHM.

If anythigns its a nice bonus to the lower players(Even though really. . .in dunes a raise is little more than not having to HP anyways. . .hell even in Qufim its what 1-2 fights for xp back) and better yet to the Mid Level Players such as myself(Although I now can get R2 but really I dont care so long as I get some XP back).

I can see where most people are comming from with all this but really, this is just a bonus to the overall Spell, its not Rdm Exclusive and Whm gets the bonus too. Personally I love a Whm in the PT, Im not into Burn style PTs, I like the good old fashioned kind where you have to grit your teeth and fight it out. . .but thats just me and it seems more fun that way.

[Murphie]

Re: Raise to raise!

Just to add my two cents, Im still only a 54 Rdm. But I just refuse to main heal. I always make the argumetn that if you want a healer get a WHM. I hardly see how increasing Rasie by 25% of its origional ability is going to further lower the desire for WHM.

Personally, I do whatever the party needs. If they need a healer, I heal. I mean, I see why it would be perhaps a bit frustrating to have to heal on top of everything else we do, but I make do.

There are definitely roles that I'd rather not have to fill in a party, but I won't refuse to.

[Vaigrant]

Re: Raise to raise!

I refuse on the grounds that this is first and foremost a game, in which the aim of it is to have fun. I can have fun healing as a Whm since thats my Job as a whm, and I take pride in the fact Im very good at it. As Rdm I have my own idea and fun from playing that, again I take pride in what I do, but I dont have fun healing as a Rdm.

I refuse to do things I will find take away from my fun. Im sure Ill lose out of a lot of PT invites due to the sheer fact I add to my comment I wont main heal. Im a strong believer in doing what you find fun in the game, if you can get it to work in a PT environment than thats even better.

[Murphie]

Re: Raise to raise!

I refuse on the grounds that this is first and foremost a game, in which the aim of it is to have fun. I can have fun healing as a Whm since thats my Job as a whm, and I take pride in the fact Im very good at it. As Rdm I have my own idea and fun from playing that, again I take pride in what I do, but I dont have fun healing as a Rdm.

I refuse to do things I will find take away from my fun. Im sure Ill lose out of a lot of PT invites due to the sheer fact I add to my comment I wont main heal. Im a strong believer in doing what you find fun in the game, if you can get it to work in a PT environment than thats even better.

Well, I'm a strong believer in teamwork, which is why I don't refuse. Yes, I'm playing to have fun, but that fun generally comes from helping the other 5 party members and I to succeed, which sometimes includes main healing. Is it as super duper fun as it could be? Maybe not. But if the party needs a main healer, they can ask me.

I just try to be flexible, which is why I have a variety of subs, and a variety of roles I'm more than happy to fill. But to each their own.

[Vaigrant]

Re: Raise to raise!

True true, this is the most Group Oriented MMORPG there is as far as I know of, which is why I like it. Im willing to help heal, dont get me wrong in that fact, its not that I wont heal an almost dead PT member, but with the fact my WHM sub is still fairly gimp for my level(I recently brought it up to 22 with the idea of Rdm Sub).

Ill heal if I absolutely need to, I wont leave a PT based on that(As long as they know my Sub is well . . .sucky in comparison). Its just whenever I look for a PT I make it a point in my comment I dont like Main Healing as Rdm, I already have to watch that Text box waiting for my enfeebles to fall off to recast, and refresh and haste, and mob enhances I have to dispel, I usually almost never glance at the PT bars anymore(I even have my <mp>MP put in echo for my macros so I can see how much I have left =P) unless an odd color seems to catch my eyes.

Ill help heal when I see it go from Yellow to ORange almost immediately, with or without the main heal casting(Either way hes farther from death, although one way he might cap off lol).

I dont like it, and I basically refuse to Main Heal as Rdm, but if it comes to it Ill suck it up and do it.

[Kirsteena]

Re: Raise to raise!

My personal thought is that it certainly helps nail rdm as a support role.

Losing only 50% of xp in the likes of Dynamis (some people are stupid and won't bring RR items - and for the record we are still fairly new at Dynamis so some things catch us out) makes it far more palattable.