There is more to landing enfeebles than straight up enfeebling skill!

[Hamlet]

I'm convinced there's more to landing enfeebles than enfeebling skill. People say that int or mnd is important, but only because "two int/mnd supposedly equals 1 enfeebling skill" (disregarding proc and duration, just talking about landing). But I've seen far too many strange things to believe this is all there is to it.

For example, tonight's pt. Strange in itself because it was a traditional pt at lvl 75 (thf, pld, whm, blm, rdm, drg), but that wasn't the strangest part, to me anyway. I couldn't land gravity on one troll. NOT ONCE (they must be wind resistant because I had no trouble at all with any other enfeeb- 1 resist on the others total for a few hours of partying). And I must've casted it about 100 times. I'm using regular quality wind staff and I macro in int rings and errant gloves, feet and legs. I have the enfeebling torque and was using the AF1 body.

My enfeeble was capped at 298 I believe. There was a blm/rdm in my pt. I asked his enfeeble later and he said 230. Now here's the weird part, he landed gravity on the trolls 2 times out of 8 tries. Sure, it can be dumb luck, but with SIXTY EIGHT fewer enfeebling, and him landing it at all, let alone TWICE, where I couldn't land it once, makes me think something else is going on.

Either int plays more of a role than just 2 int = 1 enfeeble, or elemental skill is somehow figured into at least gravity if not the other enfeebs. I personally can't think of any other explanation. (btw, asked if he had HQ wind staff and he didn't)

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: There is more to landing enfeebles than straight up enfeebling skill!

I'm glad someone else brought this up, because I've noticed some oddly similar things. Primarily, a situation where a BLM could not land Choke for the life of them, and just because it amused me, I tried. Wore off three times during our battle, and each time they would cast - restisted - and I would cast - success. Keep in mind I have no +INT gear to speak of, and only light/dark staff. Pluss, my elemental magic (if that plays a role) was capped at half his since it came from my sub.

I don't know what all factors in, but it wouldn't surprise me if there is more to it than we realize.

[Mhurron]

Re: There is more to landing enfeebles than straight up enfeebling skill!

Both sound like dumb luck. Especially choke from a WHM who has no elemental skill, since that would mean the skills would pretty much be useless.

Assuming sevenpointflaw is also talking about trolls, sounds like they just might be resistant to Wind.

[sevenpointflaw]

Re: There is more to landing enfeebles than straight up enfeebling skill!

No, not talking about trolls.

[Mhurron]

Re: There is more to landing enfeebles than straight up enfeebling skill!

You were now.

[Hamlet]

Re: There is more to landing enfeebles than straight up enfeebling skill!

Assuming sevenpointflaw is also talking about trolls, sounds like they just might be resistant to Wind.

Yes, they have to be resistant to wind. But that should just make it even harder for the blm to land them. With 64 less enfeebling, he was like a lvl 62 rdm, having much more success than a lvl 75 rdm.

Granted, it's a smallish sample, but I've seen other weird things.

I can take flukes, and his sample of 8 casts was small, but my sample was decent, with 100 casts and not one stick.

He suggested that maybe elemental skill plays some sort of factor in landing them. I personally think it's either that or int plays a larger role than 2 int = 1 enfeeble, at least for gravity.

[tdh]

Re: There is more to landing enfeebles than straight up enfeebling skill!

This is weird. The only time I've had time landing Gravity recently is on Puks. But that comes down to their extreme Wind Resistance, so extreme that Aero will actually Cure them.

I have EXP'd on Trolls once, for about an hour, and I didn't have any trouble landing any of my Enfeebles.

As far as my gear goes, I can build INT+44 I believe, or I can go with an Enfeebling Magic Skill set up which is +22. (AF Body & Enfeebling Torque) I don't always max out my INT for each Gravity as it requires two macros for gear equips, and then the actual casting of the spell with my Wind Staff equiped.

Now of course day factors into spells, but it could not have been Iceday that entire time. This may have just been one of those days. Or those incidents some talk about where RDM can't land Silence on Kirin, but a BRD/WHM some how lands it.

[BurningPanther]

Re: There is more to landing enfeebles than straight up enfeebling skill!

I've always taken it as a given that Enfeebling skill was worth more than just landing spells, that perhaps it also covers the domain of potency as well. One can't rule out, however, that dumb luck does come into play, since there seems to be alot of that in this game, with awful rainclouds of it following around anyone who uses enfeebling spells.

I'm still keeping my eyes peeled as to what's what with respect to MND, INT, skill, and M.Acc.

[Icemage]

Re: There is more to landing enfeebles than straight up enfeebling skill!

It's not a INT/MND = X amount of accuracy. There appear to be many factors in the calculations in magic accuracy:

Caster INT vs. Target INT (for black magic)
Caster MND vs. Target MND (for white magic)
Caster CHR vs. Target CHR (for songs)

Caster level vs. Target level

Caster Magic skill, perhaps as compared against a straight "C" rank skill at the monster's level.

+ Any boosts to magic accuracy from MAcc gear, day of week/weather, elemental staves, etc.

Target's resistance to specific element
Target's resistance to specific effect

----

Of these, Level is the most important factor. Skill and Magic Accuracy sort of go hand in hand with one another, and the least effective appears to be raw stats (INT/MND/CHR/etc for other types of spells like Blue Magic).

A strong imbalance in any part of the calculation will greatly skew the results in that direction. However, you generally can't influence the level differential, and it's very hard to tilt the Skill part of the formula so heavily in your favor that it reaches diminishing returns, but it IS possible to grossly overstack INT/MND/CHR to the point where it just can't help you any more no matter how much more you can add.

End-game Bards know this from raw experience; Bards have C rank Singing, Wind, and String skills, and it's only by stacking some extra skill plus having reasonable amounts of CHR that you can get songs like Elegy to land consistently on HNMs. Overstacking CHR won't get you anywhere, and by the same token, completely stacking skill without boosting any CHR doesn't produce any better results either.

End-game BLMs also know this quite well. You can stack a zillion points of INT and watch as nuke after nuke bounces like rubber off the HNM you're fighting, but tack on 20 points of Elemental skill and suddenly you're landing Thunder IV for 1000+ damage.

Go watch a major HNMLS on your server fighting and you won't see their BLMs nuking in Errant/Mahatma gear, despite the very attractive amounts of +INT and -Enmity. The above is the reason why.


Icemage

[DakAttack]

Re: There is more to landing enfeebles than straight up enfeebling skill!

Blm might have had a few merits into whatever it is that increases wind effectiveness, or enough to land a few enfeebles.

[Hamlet]

Re: There is more to landing enfeebles than straight up enfeebling skill!

Hmm, I guess wind accuracy merits could be it. But he didn't mention it and I think he would've because he saw I was freaking out about it.

I didn't check his gear, so it's possible that he had some straight-up magic accuracy on as well. I'm not too familiar with lvl 75 blm gear, is magic accuracy common? The only piece I noticed was the weskit.

Of these, Level is the most important factor. Skill and Magic Accuracy sort of go hand in hand with one another, and the least effective appears to be raw stats (INT/MND/CHR/etc for other types of spells like Blue Magic).

A strong imbalance in any part of the calculation will greatly skew the results in that direction. However, you generally can't influence the level differential, and it's very hard to tilt the Skill part of the formula so heavily in your favor that it reaches diminishing returns, but it IS possible to grossly overstack INT/MND/CHR to the point where it just can't help you any more no matter how much more you can add.

He obviously had more int then me. I was rdm/whm, and I think with macro I had about 95 int when casting gravity. If 2 int= 1 enfeeble, he would've had to have had 223 int to just match my enfeebling skill (I know that's not what you're saying, but just mentioning it because that's the common belief)

So, there was a strong imbalance between us in enfeebling and int, but I would think that enfeebling being generally considered the most important part of landing an enfeeble, that that would result in better results than his having more int. I can understand flukes, and enfeebling seems like the most random of all the spells, but 2/8 vs 0/100 was too much to take.

Double Post Edited:

I have EXP'd on Trolls once, for about an hour, and I didn't have any trouble landing any of my Enfeebles.

I exp'd on trolls once before, and don't remember any problem with gravity. The only thing is I might not have been casting it regularly.

This was a pretty long party. I'd say about 3 hours.

I macro in 25 int for gravity (with the AF1 and torque on).

[Icemage]

Re: There is more to landing enfeebles than straight up enfeebling skill!

Hmm, I guess wind accuracy merits could be it. But he didn't mention it and I think he would've because he saw I was freaking out about it.

I didn't check his gear, so it's possible that he had some straight-up magic accuracy on as well. I'm not too familiar with lvl 75 blm gear, is magic accuracy common? The only piece I noticed was the weskit.

He obviously had more int then me. I was rdm/whm, and I think with macro I had about 95 int when casting gravity. If 2 int= 1 enfeeble, he would've had to have had 223 int to just match my enfeebling skill (I know that's not what you're saying, but just mentioning it because that's the common belief)

BLMs don't get Wind Magic Accuracy. They get Wind Magic Potency, which increases their MATK score for Wind Magic. It doesn't help them land enfeebles at all.

Trolls are simply naturally resistant to Gravity. Some monster types are just like that. And for what it's worth, the SMN/WHMs in my LS have had better luck sticking Silence on Kirin than our RDMs.

So, there was a strong imbalance between us in enfeebling and int, but I would think that enfeebling being generally considered the most important part of landing an enfeeble, that that would result in better results than his having more int. I can understand flukes, and enfeebling seems like the most random of all the spells, but 2/8 vs 0/100 was too much to take.

I exp'd on trolls once before, and don't remember any problem with gravity. The only thing is I might not have been casting it regularly.

This was a pretty long party. I'd say about 3 hours.

I macro in 25 int for gravity (with the AF1 and torque on).

You need to "win" both contests in both INT and Enfeebling skill to have a shot to stick Gravity against even neutral enemies. Against resistant types, even that doesn't save you, and in extreme cases like this you're back to a default of 5% or less success rate.


Icemage

[nazlfrag]

Re: There is more to landing enfeebles than straight up enfeebling skill!

It seems in the contest your int vs. trolls int might not have stacked up to even take your enfeebling into consideration. The blm could overcome the int barrier, and get them to stick (perhaps). The blm having a HQ staff could also tip the balance in his favour. On the other hand, you might have both been at around 5% chance and the blm got lucky, it's hard to tell when his sample size is so small.

I know my analysis is vague and sketchy (thanks Icemage for being so articulate :p) but I wonder if perhaps MAB also factors in to the equation. In that case, the blm's natural high MAB coupled with possible merits would be worth considering.

[Mhurron]

Re: There is more to landing enfeebles than straight up enfeebling skill!

I believe MAB effects only elemental spells, not enfeebling spells. For instance I doubt that a Moldavite Earring will do anything for the RDM that never magic bursts.

[Aeni]

Re: There is more to landing enfeebles than straight up enfeebling skill!

I believe MAB effects only elemental spells, not enfeebling spells. For instance I doubt that a Moldavite Earring will do anything for the RDM that never magic bursts.

Au contraire. I've never taken off my Moldavite Earring for any reason at all and it's helped me immensely on MBs.

I think I've said this in another thread and I'll say it again. This game seems to reward players with a strong sense of balance. Have you ever seen those polygon charts where each point (tip) of the polygon would stand for a certain condition and you would then place your values along the axes running to the center. What you get is a morphed polygon that fits into this chart. Skew stats going along one axes in one direction and notice how you pull everything out of whack.

I might even chart this, where every possible contribution and factor is weighed in and would give a picture on the strength of the balance for any given situation. In this example, enfeebling. The BLM might have had a stronger balance for Gravity (Affinity if you will) and might not have been dumb luck at all.

Of course, you should also pay attention to the elemental day. One day is roughly one in real life hour on the clock. So you casting this on iceday might've just totally killed off your chances for landing gravity.