The New Red Mage Spells

[arkaine23]

Re: The New Red Mage Spells

The tier for Bio III is somewhere between 217 Dark skill and 225 Dark skill.

7/tick at 217
8/tick at 225

We're hard-pressed to get more than 236 dark Magic skill with all the currently available gear.

That's really not impressive at all. And the attack down effect is a static 15%. Whereas bio II is 10% and bio is 5%. I hardly think this is worthwhile to put 3 merits in.

Edit: Just test it in ballista. Its easy enough to look at how your attack stat changes when the spell lands on you, AND see how much damage per tick you receive. Duration of Bio and Bio II is 2 minutes. You can cast it alongside poison and they'll wear at the same time.

[Aeni]

Re: The New Red Mage Spells

These can be tested in PvP.

Exactly how accurate are these tests, because I've never seen data that were presented by level headed players yet. I might just as well reserve a session with my LS and test it with my 2 accounts...

Since RDMs can never break the 269 tier, even a naked 75 BLM (269 skill) can break this tier. Thus a 75 BLMs Bio II will always outdamage a RDM's. As far as I know, the tiers have not been discovered for Bio III.

Yet DRKs have higher skill than a BLM, so my tests show otherwise.

Double Post Edited:

The tier for Bio III is somewhere between 217 Dark skill and 225 Dark skill.

7/tick at 217
8/tick at 225

We're hard-pressed to get more than 236 dark Magic skill with all the currently available gear.

That's really not impressive at all. And the attack down effect is a static 15%. Whereas bio II is 10% and bio is 5%. I hardly think this is worthwhile to put 3 merits in.

Most people seem to forget that duration is key, not the actual per/tick rate. Bio off of Akemie seems to last longer than on Aliza. In essence, enfeebling comes into play more than dark skill. Dark skill is important, but since BLM and DRKs have shit skills** in this, it shouldn't be a cut-and-dry discussion.

Edit: in enfeebling**

[arkaine23]

Re: The New Red Mage Spells

You want to know why your RDM did more inital Bio damage than your DRK with less skill? Your RDM has MAB traits for +24 MAB. And maybe even a Moldy Earring? I take it you did not cast with a Dark Staff with one character and not the other.

Enfeebling magic skill has no effect on Dark Magic spells such as Bio.

[Icemage]

Re: The New Red Mage Spells

Who cares about how much damage per tick Bio III does? It's the -15% ATK that you really want.

If you're going to lose a fight because your Bio III did 7 damage per tick instead of 8 damage per tick, then you seriously need to go play another game. As long as the effect sticks and doesn't wear off immediately, I could personally care less if Bio III did 1 damage per tick.

The only time where this might be an issue is when casting against those stupid rock walls in Lebros Cavern Assault, and I hardly think a single PSC Assault should affect the value of a spell.


Icemage

[rheya]

Re: The New Red Mage Spells

Yet DRKs have higher skill than a BLM, so my tests show otherwise.

I meant that a BLM's Bio will do more DoT than RDM's Bio because they can go higher in the dark magic skill tiers. I imagine that DRK would be similar with respect to DoT. I didn't mean that BLM Bio initial damage was higher than ours because of dark magic skill. Sorry I didn't make it clear that I was referring to DoT only. But yes, DoT and duration are important factors to consider.

I take the numbers as accurate...they've been reported the same by multiple players across multiple forums. I haven't tested this myself though, but yeah...easiest way to prove it would be to steal some LSmates and head to Diorama.

I agree with Arkaine...I'm not impressed by Bio III. I would be if the DoT were higher, but alas, it isn't. I think I'm going to go Dia III (lvl 3) and Slow II (lvl 3) myself. After pumping up Paralyze I from ice merits, I kinda want to give Slow II a chance to shine. Yes, I realize ice merits would affect Paralyze II also, but I think Slow II will be a great chance to diversify.

I just think that all of our six new options have great potential and I love that we can individualize somewhat now, so I caution against telling people that "omg you must merit this spell and only this spell!" especially this early on.

[arkaine23]

Re: The New Red Mage Spells

I just.....

Bio III's uses are gonna be one of the following:

DOT kiting (solo) and or/DOT stacking (group)

Reducing damage to the person the mob is focused on (you for solo, your non-blink tank for group)- Phalanx II probably does this as well/better (for group useage) than the added 5% attack down of Bio III vs Bio II. Paralyze II, Slow II, and even Blind II can also reduce the damage you/your tank is taking, and don't need extra upgrades to last more than 30 seconds.

But the idea of these merits is to customize your character the way you want to. They all can be used for good effect, and you don't necessarily have to completely specialize either.

[Icemage]

Re: The New Red Mage Spells

I just.....

Bio III's uses are gonna be one of the following:

DOT kiting (solo) and or/DOT stacking (group)

Reducing damage to the person the mob is focused on (you for solo, your non-blink tank for group)- Phalanx II probably does this as well/better (for group useage) than the added 5% attack down of Bio III vs Bio II.

This isn't an either/or thing. You should be able to use Bio III and Phalanx II together to mitigate Hundred Fists damage in Dynamis or other situations down to manageable levels. Without them right now, even Paladins with the best gear fold pretty fast if they don't do some kiting. With Phalanx II and Bio III together, it should give more time to react, particularly if hate switches to someone other than a tank.

Not to mention Bio III will make Stoneskin last longer in solo situations, which alone makes it worthwhile in my book.

Paralyze II, Slow II, and even Blind II can also reduce the damage you/your tank is taking, and don't need extra upgrades to last more than 30 seconds.

But the idea of these merits is to customize your character the way you want to. They all can be used for good effect, and you don't necessarily have to completely specialize either.

I agree with the above, but I'm just vastly confused by people who think Dia III is an automatic shoe-in at end-game while considering Bio III questionable. I like both spells, but from an endgame usefulness perspective I think Bio III is far more useful, both in tough solo and HNM situations.


Icemage

[tdh]

Re: The New Red Mage Spells

I used paralyzeII at the beginning of the party tonight, and it seemed to do good, but it drained the hell out of my mp. You're going to have to be pretty well-off mp-wise to make use of any of these in xping type situations.

I'm not finding that the new spells are too draining on my MP pool. Now having Phalanx II as of last night, that adds up if you drop it on all melee in a TP Burn set up. 42MP a pop can add up quick, and the 10 second /recast makes you think you can just cast it for days! Oddly enough, when you cast the spell, it looks like it was supposed to be AoE. Phalanx from the sky or something.

Yet DRKs have higher skill than a BLM, so my tests show otherwise.

DRK and BLM both have an A- rating in Dark Magic. Which nets them Lv.269 Skill while RDM is stuck with a dismal Lv.200 at a rating of E.

So far with Phalanx II, it seems to eat 15dmg consistantly. I noticed this from Blaze Spikes hitting the two DRKs, the SAM, and the PLD last night. Everybody else would take 15dmg per hit, and PLD took 0dmg. (Damn Imps would randomly resist Dispel last night!) No clue if I'll Merit this further, but so far I have 3/6 spells.

[Mhurron]

Re: The New Red Mage Spells

I'm just vastly confused by people who think Dia III is an automatic shoe-in at end-game while considering Bio III questionable. I like both spells, but from an endgame usefulness perspective I think Bio III is far more useful, both in tough solo and HNM situations.

Probably with the same reasoning Dia is more useful everywhere other then Soloing. -ATT only benefits your tank and doesn't make the battle go any quicker whereas -DEF helps everyone smacking the mob.

[tdh]

Re: The New Red Mage Spells

Probably with the same reasoning Dia is more useful everywhere other then Soloing. -ATT only benefits your tank and doesn't make the battle go any quicker whereas -DEF helps everyone smacking the mob.

This is where I've always sat when it came to the Dia Vs. Bio debate. I've gotten to the point that I only use Blind and Bio during Skill Up parties, and Dia in EXP. If you can lower a mob's DEF by 15%, it's like Berserkga for your melee. But I do see the pros for Bio in end-game activities.

[Hamlet]

Re: The New Red Mage Spells

I'm not finding that the new spells are too draining on my MP pool.

The mp difference between para1 and para2 is huge. And with it only at merit lvl1, for my party (which wasn't melee burn), I was casting it about 3 times a fight to keep it stuck because the duration is so short and traditional pt fights are so long.

I could see it being better in a melee burn I just got an invite to a traditional party and had to try it out (not impressive, btw, I'm sticking with burns from now on).

[tdh]

Re: The New Red Mage Spells

The mp difference between para1 and para2 is huge. And with it only at merit lvl1, for my party (which wasn't melee burn), I was casting it about 3 times a fight to keep it stuck because the duration is so short and traditional pt fights are so long.

I could see it being better in a melee burn I just got an invite to a traditional party and had to try it out (not impressive, btw, I'm sticking with burns from now on).

You're right 6MP Vs. 36MP is a big difference. But as a RDM/BLM, 2 MP Merits, and Glace affords me 915MP. Before Phalanx II near the end of my Convert /recast I just nuked to expend the MP. Slow II sticks, and stays there, Paralyze II seems to be up and down at times. As I've told a few RDM, there are times it's like Paralyze in Valkrum Dunes, and then sometimes I wonder, "I can't believe I wasted 3 Merits on this thing!"

Soloing it's amazing, but I usually solo mobs with MP to Aspir, and I go /BLM. So I can Aspir back a pretty good amount and just go to town. Paralyze II and Slow II kick ass against DC~EM Crabs!

[Karinya]

Re: The New Red Mage Spells

Why solo /BLM when you have DRK leveled? You get drain, aspir *and* vorpal blade, plus att bonus trait, and stun if you need it.

Well, anyway, I think Bio III, Dia III, Paralyze II and Phalanx II are obvious choices because, as someone pointed out upthread, nobody else has them. (Except other RDMs, of course, but in many situations you don't have any other RDMs.)

If Slow II does overwrite Haste as Apple Pie suggests, it's a pretty compelling choice too for WHM and RDM beastmen, RDM weapons, clusters... most likely in addition to overwriting Haste it would also be un-overwritable *by* Haste, like Spider Web or Omega's Chemical Bomb. Even if it doesn't, ninjas may not bother to slow, not have time, or be resisted; or you may not have one in the first place, particularly in smallish party situations like KSNM, uncapped ISNM, uncapped missions and Limbus.

That only leaves one merit, at most, and frankly the difference between one and two merits in a spell is pretty tiny. I'm not sure it's even worth the 40,000 exp, let alone the way you'll limit your versatility. It's true that ninjas like to blind for hate, but ninjas are resisted sometimes, in addition to the solo application (especially when soloing /THF) and other odd situations like duoing with melee/nins that can't enfeeble worth crap but would like to keep their shadows a bit longer.

So I think I will go for all six spells. Putting several points in one ability seems more designed for the jobs that don't get six abilities to start with (or people who don't like some of the ones they have), so they don't complain about how they have fewer abilities.

[arkaine23]

Re: The New Red Mage Spells

The only problem I see with going 1 in each is the very short duration of dia and bio. You have to justify the mp cost of casting them. To do so they need to last as long as possible. To make them last as long as possible takes all your merits. I'll probbaly do-

Dia III x3
Slow II x2
Para II x1

[Apple Pie]

Re: The New Red Mage Spells

I haven't had access to Slow II yet since I just spent another 4 merit points on Dia III - LV2 but it is reported that Slow II is immune to Haste. For example, Qutrub's +30% haste buff (not sure how to call it in English since I use JP client) as well as Haste spell doesn't seem to overwrite Slow II.

What is more, the minimum effect (without MND boost) of Slow II is said to be +25% at LV3. Therefore, I think Arkaine's experiment is pretty accurate (= +22% at LV1). Because the maximum effect of Slow I is +30% while the minimum is 15%, I wonder if the maximum effect of Slow II at LV3 is 25 + 15 = 40% which is betweem Carnage Elegy (50% Slow with Horn +1) and Battlefield Elegy (33% slow with Horn +1).

If that's the case, I will spend merits on Slow II - LV2 or higher. As a result, mine will be very similar to arkaine's

Dia III x3
Slow II x 3

or exactly the same.

Dia III x3
Slow II x2
Para II x1