What & When to Cast Spells....

[Raydeus]

Re: What & When to Cast Spells....

With the spell Sleep,
Wouldn't that be better if the BlackMage put the link to sleep?

Well because no matter how high my Int is, the BlackMage's Int will always be higher.
And because the BlackMage's Int is higher, is there a better chance of Sleep sticking to the mob, and it lasting longer?

It seems every time I cast Sleep, Sleep II, I only get hate.

Nope, because even though Sleep is enhanced by high INT, what matters the most at the time of landing it is Enfeebling skill, and RDM has way higher skill than any other job.

Edit> oh and about hate you can easily blink and stoneskin while the mob is asleep to buy some time to land the next sleep, but your tank has to voke the mob too to get some hate off you.

[Sepa]

Re: What & When to Cast Spells....

Hmm....
Would the Sleep stick better if I switched to +Int gear before I cast it?
Or just cast Sleep twice?

And would it be better to cast Sleep, the Sleep II on the Link?

Double Post Edited:
Most times people don't see the Mage's ask or demand for Refresh,
because they always {well at least for me they do} send you a /tell for it.

They don't send it to the Party.

[Murphie]

Re: What & When to Cast Spells....

It's a good idea to swap in gear that relates to the spell you're casting, yeah. So I'd swap in INT gear and Enfeebling + gear (if you have it).

[Raydeus]

Re: What & When to Cast Spells....

Hmm....
Would the Sleep stick better if I switched to +Int gear before I cast it?
Or just cast Sleep twice?

And would it be better to cast Sleep, the Sleep II on the Link?

Yep, it's a good idea to add +int gear in your sleep macro (the more the better), and if you can land Sleep first and then Sleep II before the mob awakes you'll buy your party and yourself a lot of time,

[Aeni]

Re: What & When to Cast Spells....

Nope, because even though Sleep is enhanced by high INT, what matters the most at the time of landing it is Enfeebling skill, and RDM has way higher skill than any other job.

Edit> oh and about hate you can easily blink and stoneskin while the mob is asleep to buy some time to land the next sleep, but your tank has to voke the mob too to get some hate off you.

Generally, I'd agree with you, but in my past few PTs, BLMs would always be able to stick sleep better than me and have it last even longer. One theory is that their hidden +macc/matk bonus somehow effects sleep duration and how well it sticks. Even if enfeebling drives it, it seems that BLMs on the average can cast sleep better.

I even had one instance where my DRK was able to sleep an IT once with crappy enfeebling whereas this RDM got resisted, even with capped enfeebling and subbing BLM. So I'm beginning to wonder if dark skill doesn't come into the picture as well either *ponders*

[Raydeus]

Re: What & When to Cast Spells....

So I'm beginning to wonder if dark skill doesn't come into the picture as well either *ponders*

Hmm... how much +INT do you have when you cast? At lvl 60 I had around +20-25 INT on every cast thanks to equip macros and dark staff, and I almost never got resisted.

Edit> (I'm a hume)

[Icemage]

Re: What & When to Cast Spells....

Sleep spells are Enfeebling, not Dark. DRKs I party with generally can't stick Sleep to save their lives except against enemies that are weak to dark elemental magic (Crawlers).

The only time BLMs do better at landing Sleep II than I do as RDM is when they're using Elemental Seal.


Icemage

[Tomatoes]

Re: What & When to Cast Spells....

Generally, I'd agree with you, but in my past few PTs, BLMs would always be able to stick sleep better than me and have it last even longer. One theory is that their hidden +macc/matk bonus somehow effects sleep duration and how well it sticks. Even if enfeebling drives it, it seems that BLMs on the average can cast sleep better.

I even had one instance where my DRK was able to sleep an IT once with crappy enfeebling whereas this RDM got resisted, even with capped enfeebling and subbing BLM. So I'm beginning to wonder if dark skill doesn't come into the picture as well either *ponders*

What level was this? Also, is there a correlation between Sleep length and Enf.skill and/or INT? Last I heard it was a set length for the most part (assuming no resist). I feel your memory might be leading you to some dubious conclusions, which anecdotal evidence is prone to. Are you sure you didn't leave your Light/Apollo on by accident?

[Aeni]

Re: What & When to Cast Spells....

Well, sleep doesn't last a set duration. People have told me before, but I believe it's due to resistivity. If sleep is unresisted, it can last a while. From there, I think sleep is pretty much similar to all other elemental spells, where duration is halved with each level of resistance (1/2 as long, 1/4 as long, 1/8 as long, etc.) What the duration should be is anyone's guess, since you can up that with ES, but ES only makes things stick, not sure whether or not it "extends" duration.

When I casted Sleep, it was on an IT Alastor way back when in Bibiki Bay. Enfeebling of only 80sh at the time. Sheer dumb luck? I thought so, until I casted Sleep II on it and THAT stuck as well >.> No swapping in spellcasting equipment on my DRK either (What idiot DRK would swap in a staff anyway during a fight, losing TP, just for casting spells?)

As for my RDM, I can get sleep to stick 95% of the time with ES. Sleepga works better than Sleep and Sleep II is best, but I notice not as consistent either. But, from what I've seen, BLMs can get Sleep to stick here, there and everywhere unless we're fighting mobs that would normally be resistant to sleep (Skellies come to mind)

[Tomatoes]

Re: What & When to Cast Spells....

I've read that Sleep does have a set time, specifically that Sleep II caps at 1:30? Not 100% on this though, might as well go test this out when I get the chance this weekend.

And yes, I realize resistances affect sleep, but I didn't think it worked in quarters; rather it's full/half/none as far as I know. (Assuming the mob hasn't built up resistance from being slept previously.)

What I was asking, wasn't Sleep Length::Resistance ratio, but rather Sleep Length::INT ratio. Is there a quantifiable amount? i.e. difference between player INT and mob's MND (or is it INT) translating to x amount of seconds. More importantly, does INT translate to higher accuracy? Which I don't believe it does. I'm not quite sure what you are referring to with regards to BLM's "hidden +macc/matk bonus." I've never heard that before.

I've subbed /whm for the majority of my RDM playing and I've never felt ES was a necessity to land Sleep.

[Karinya]

Re: What & When to Cast Spells....

Strange, because as a Taru RDM with pretty good gear getting around 800MP per Convert, it's rare for me to have such spare MP that I can't MB at pretty much every renkei.＾＾ Unless I'm in a poorly formed PT where I'm the only healer or we have a warrior tank or something, I'm really not seeing these MP issues at all.

Yeah, I agree. I don't know what Icemage is spending all that MP on. In my usual static of NIN, MNK, MNK, THF, WHM, RDM, I have 2 refresh, 2 haste, enfeebles (silence, dispel, gravity, whatever the NIN doesn't cast or gets resisted at), and a little backup healing. (The WHM has no trouble doing 90% of the healing and the other 2 hastes, and Dia for skillup, with just refresh + AF2 body and resting when possible. Generally our chains are limited only by the availability of monsters and distance they have to travel to reach the party.) What else would I do with the rest of my MP?

Regardless, I don't really experience these major MP issues, and I don't consider over 300 damage to be a waste of MP at this level, given that it doesn't interfere with my other duties.

For the benefit of those who haven't tried 65+ RDM nuking, I'll point out that 300 is a half resist. I've broken 650 with just NQ staff, moldavite earring and AF2 boots - and that's on demons, which have Magic Defense Bonus. Not bad for a little over 100 MP.

Whatever the case, I don't think a general rule of abstaining from magic bursting is very good. In my opinion, part of being a RDM is magic bursting. Feel free to disagree, but given the significant return after casting a magic burst, unless it's overkilling or causing you to run out of MP prematurely, I think not doing it is missing out on one of the many things that make RDMs valuable to a PT.

I agree. Magic bursting can significantly shorten a fight, and the MP cost of doing so shouldn't be that hard to sustain.

If you *are* having trouble with the MP cost of magic bursts, save them until late in the chain.

[Icemage]

Re: What & When to Cast Spells....

With a WHM present, I usually have MP to magic burst since I'm not main healing. Too bad that I haven't had a WHM in a party for the past 10 levels except once. All that extra MP goes straight to Cures, Erase, Regen, Silena, etc.

I'm not really sure why but I see a lot of BLMs in my parties lately. Not that BLMs are bad, but they just don't fit at all in TP burn parties, and it's really starting to aggravate me.

Actually, the one time I had a WHM in a party, I *still* didn't have MP to magic burst, but mostly because the DDs weren't /NIN so it was taking up enormous amounts of MP to keep them healed from both the WHM and myself.


Icemage

[Lasswyn]

Re: What & When to Cast Spells....

I'm about to ding 41, and I *HOPE* to Heaven that I get some better BLM luck next party. I've had two straight nights of "What the heck are you smoking" BLMs, and as a result, I HAD to MB because nobody else would have. Maybe, maybe they would burst 1/4 of the time. Usually, not so much. The rest of their mp was spent on Bio II, Fire II, Blizzard, Bio II (again), Thunder, Fire II, Bio II (yes, again), Blizzard, Thundaga, Bio II (oooo, looky! I did 36 dmg! yaysies!) ....until I just wanted to scream.

Meanwhile, I'm in the back choking and rasping for all I'm worth. And by the end of the one fight, I outdamaged the Taru blm's tier 2 fire, unbursted. Way to wear it out, midget. *clap*

So....anyway....uh, my point? {Hmmm.} Well...maybe it's a good thing that I learned quick n' early to spare some mp for bursting, because if I could main heal, debuff, regen, nuke, burst and all that before even getting Convert, I might just have a better appreciation for conservation later on. We'll find out, I guess.

...but if ONE more blm asks "What does Aspir do?" in CN, I'mma let him Thundaga himself into a wicked big hole in the ground.

[Jei]

Re: What & When to Cast Spells....

It's been a long time since my 75 PT skillchains... but from my experiance, if I MB I would run out of MP sooner than my convert recasts. So I prefer not to MB normally. I run out of MP just about when my convert resets that way.

Anyway not all PT performs the same you know ^^ I've had PT where my MP stays almost full the entire time, and I've had PT where I ran out of MP so fast. The latter case is where I have to be quite conservative about my MP usage.

[Karinya]

Re: What & When to Cast Spells....

Well, that's true. I didn't intend any criticism of Icemage, although it might look that way rereading my post -.-

Certainly, if you're main healing, you may not have time or MP to magic burst as well. Too bad for you that it's *that* common for you.


Lasswyn: It really seems like there are more bad BLMs around lately than before. I think public perception that BLMs are soooo strong makes people go for BLM without being interested enough in the job to learn how it works. BLM really is strong, but not if you're *that* much of an idiot about it.

All mage jobs in this game are at least somewhat technical, and that means to be effective in them, you have to *know the mechanics*. Not all of them are as complex as RDM or BRD, but you at least have to have the brains not to cast Waterga II on a crab.