Regarding /NIN in PT situations

[Aeni]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

Then I feel to see what the real point is. Every GOOD party is probably going to have a ninja tanking anyway, so the need for you to use elemental ninjitsu or debuff jujitsu is nil, and the bonuses from dual wielding two clubs simply aren't necessary at that level, as you shouldn't have much in the way of issues with resists, either.

You fail to understand what the point was because you failed to read Patchi's post. Go back to the first post of this thread and realize that this is a continuing discussion from a previous thread which is now locked up due to some controversial posting by other forum members.

Once you understand that, then you can see where Patchi's coming from.

Please, people, read Chapters 1 to 85 instead of just skimming 86-90 and passing judgement on the author...

[Omni]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

You'd be amazed how ridiculously hard it is to get a NIN to use ichi elemental debuffs before skillchains. Everyone says "it's not going to make a difference," or "it doesn't matter at this level." Moreover, most NINs only carry Tsurara at those levels since it's the cheapest tool, and only cast it at the beginning of fights for skill-ups. /NIN melees don't carry elemental tools at all.

I dont want to derail the thread but I think we've been over this armando. Pre-37, while tanking w/ only ichi and casting another 4s ninjutsu is why people dont do it. The stance you are taking makes it sound that nin are lazy and cheap. I really dont think that's the real reason behind neglecting ichi elementals. It's just extremely cumbersome.

You've taken your nin to 24 it seems, and if you are the only tank in your pt, keeping the 4s cast/30s cooldown ichi is a chore in itself. Add another 4s/30s ninjutsu into the mix and you've got yourself being interrupted for atleast 50% of the fight on top of that, being interrupted so much causes you to lose hate. All for bursting thunder? or water II?

You've already proven that using this as an off melee say thf/nin, rng/nin or 2nd tank war/nin has its effectiveness, but as a nin main tanking, its far from practical until 37 where you have some breathing room with Ni. Then again, you just need to wait 3 more levels till you can start using Ni elementals.

[Patchinko]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

Thank you Aeni for the helpful response to the following post, it is precisely what I would have posted.

Then I feel to see what the real point is. Every GOOD party is probably going to have a ninja tanking anyway, so the need for you to use elemental ninjitsu or debuff jujitsu is nil, and the bonuses from dual wielding two clubs simply aren't necessary at that level, as you shouldn't have much in the way of issues with resists, either.

Every good party does not really have a NIN tanking at early levels. WAR or PLD is preferable at these early levels, really, and if a NIN is tanking, the elemental ninjutsu is probably not going to be used by him for reasons stated above by Omni.

That said, I do agree with Omni on this. In my experience tanking as a NIN at those low levels, it's hard enough trying to keep hate with what I do have, considering the rate of interruption since we are only stuck with Utsusemi: Ichi. I get more hate from allowing myself to melee and use WS than trying to cast Ninjutsu that has a high chance of being interrupted. If i were able to get the katana that reduces spell interruption by 25%, then it may be worth using those ichi spells at earlier levels, but otherwise it is simply not giving a return that helps a PT very much, in my experience.

In contrast, having another member of the PT take that responsibility helps a great deal. That is why I advocate that RDM/NIN, when played in the manner I described above, is a reasonable PT member at early levels (before the late-30s).

The bottom line question is whether this ends up "superior" to another, more stereotypical subjob. And my answer is no. There may be times where it is more useful at early levels, such as in a PT with a BLM and BRD. But it will always be expensive to be played at the appropriate level (HQ wands are really needed, and all the ninja tools need to be bought and kept in stock), whereas a BLM or WHM sub is not expensive at all and provides a similarly effective utility.

However, it is something different and fun, and I know when I was doing it long ago during my 30s, my PTs were very surprised at how useful and effective it was.

[Taskmage]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

Slight OT: When tanking through 30 as nin, I used Dash Sash and threw shuriken between swings. They're not THAT expensive, and when you first get them your damage output doubles, or if not doubles than nearly so. Even at the point where I could have been using the stronger Jujis, I was still holding hate a little too well; sometimes nobody could voke off me if I needed to recast shadows.

So long as you're only thinking of elemental debuffs, my position is pretty much the same as before. Since they seem to always come through with their resistance reducing effect regardless of your ninjitsu skill, using them to help ensure that important spells land or that the SC and MB do full damage seem reasonable and beneficial to me. This is of course assuming that /whm sub isn't needed for -nas or what have you.

Having said that, I would still never use it myself, and I would be very wary of inviting a rdm/nin to a party. For one thing, it can be cumbersome and expensive to keep your inventory stocked with all the tools you need. For another, I'm not entirely confident that the time and mp spent on recasts would outweigh the mp lost from not subbing /blm; mp I could be using to simply recast those debuffs (other than gravity) in the 4-12 seconds that I would have been casting nin spells.

For a party situation, I would either have to know the person very well or be desperate for a 6th to invite a rdm/nin. I think in all likelyhood someone using that job combination wants to be a pseudo-DD and come in swinging two en-spelled swords while neglecting debuffs and dispels rather than supplementing their spellcasting ability.

[Aeni]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

Slight OT: When tanking through 30 as nin, I used Dash Sash and threw shuriken between swings. They're not THAT expensive, and when you first get them your damage output doubles, or if not doubles than nearly so. Even at the point where I could have been using the stronger Jujis, I was still holding hate a little too well; sometimes nobody could voke off me if I needed to recast shadows.

{Ranged Attack}{Impossible to Gauge}

At 15 as a SAM/RNG, even if I whiffed up a storm on my GKatana, I can still make the mob turn around with only two successful landings of a bone arrow. Cheap yet effective. NIN need shurikens to add a little bit of damage. I'd rather my NIN tank toss a few stars at the mob instead of consuming so much time trying to cast Hyoton: Ichi when you know it'll get interrupted if your Utsu: Ichi is melting faster than popsicle on the asphalt of I-5 in 110 degree weather...

[Armando]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

I dont want to derail the thread but I think we've been over this armando. Pre-37, while tanking w/ only ichi and casting another 4s ninjutsu is why people dont do it. The stance you are taking makes it sound that nin are lazy and cheap. I really dont think that's the real reason behind neglecting ichi elementals. It's just extremely cumbersome.

You've taken your nin to 24 it seems, and if you are the only tank in your pt, keeping the 4s cast/30s cooldown ichi is a chore in itself. Add another 4s/30s ninjutsu into the mix and you've got yourself being interrupted for atleast 50% of the fight on top of that, being interrupted so much causes you to lose hate. All for bursting thunder? or water II?

You've already proven that using this as an off melee say thf/nin, rng/nin or 2nd tank war/nin has its effectiveness, but as a nin main tanking, its far from practical until 37 where you have some breathing room with Ni. Then again, you just need to wait 3 more levels till you can start using Ni elementals.

Well, we're both wrong in some points. I will concede that I'm biased, I've always duo blink tanked. You're right, solo blink tanking with just Ichi is a terrible chore. My post was unreasonable towards solo tanking NINs, so for that I apologize. I'd just like to point out that it's for the Skillchain more than anything else, and that even when the NIN isn't solo tanking, most are still unwilling to do it. It's also true that most NINs will only carry one or two elemental ninjutsu tool (which is perfectly understandable.)

Anyways, the point was, regardless of the reason why, you probably won't be able to convince the NIN to do it, and while the usefulness of a RDM/NIN in a party is up for debate, if you want any elemental debuffs being cast pre-Ni levels, it'd most likely be up to the RDM/NIN.

[Taskmage]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

Nice analogy. ^^ Yeah, I should mention that while I tried as much as reasonable to land Kurayami and Hojo, I never used any ichi nukes. When Hyoton did less damage in the Dunes than my taru melee, even with Eremites+1 swapped in, I wrote them off as useless. Less damage + no tp + spend money = {No thanks.} I casted those only long enough to cap my skill.

[Patchinko]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

The ichi spells are still good for magic bursting at those early levels. The damage is pathetic, but it's yet another tool for keeping hate that's fairly easy to execute.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

Really off topic now, but shurikens are awesome for lower level NIN's if you have throwing capped or near capped; I've never been out damaged by another NIN in party (I parsed most of my NIN parties back then) thanks to them--while always geared for evasion and AGI. The miss rate was painful, though; I felt like I was tossing gils away every time I hit the throwing macro. >_<

* * *

I kinda started (this round) of RDM/NIN discussion, so I'd like remind all the people debating that I was looking for a better rate of landing enfeebling spells--and I don't mean Ninjutsu. >_> It looks like it can work, but too stressful for my inventory and harsh for finding parties--so I'll pass on trying it myself.

BTW, if you're in lowbie land, don't necessary dismiss the DoT DD ability of RDM/NIN out of hand--chances are that a player with the skills and the equipement can make RDM into a decent DD.

Not that I have great skill or million-gil gear, but I was the most damaging DD in my last party as as RDM30--that's RDM30/BLM15. -_- Not a fun party, I assure you--but probably could've done even better as RDM/NIN dual wielding two swords. (Not because of DW I--because of availability of Acc+ swords, since melee'ing and enthunder contributed a lot.)

[Taskmage]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

As rdm/whm pre-30 I remember my damage not being bad but nothing to write home about, either. The problem is when people get too caught up in the melee and neglect their other responsibilities in the party, or just aren't aware that they have other important duties in the party to begin with. It's the whole fighter-mage thing the Brady guide and even the official FFXI website push for rdm.

I wouldn't kick a rdm for melee in those levels, but I wouldn't invite them for that either.

[Aeni]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

Really off topic now, but shurikens are awesome for lower level NIN's if you have throwing capped or near capped; I've never been out damaged by another NIN in party (I parsed most of my NIN parties back then) thanks to them--while always geared for evasion and AGI. The miss rate was painful, though; I felt like I was tossing gils away every time I hit the throwing macro. >_<

It's a shame we have such a lack of tanking jobs that it falls on NIN's shoulders to bear the brunt of this problem. As far as I'm concerned, NIN/RNG would make an excellent DD pairing with shurikens. I mean, the damage potential is really there and unlike other /NIN combination jobs, the NIN/RNG won't have a thing to really worry about if he ever did steal hate. Now, come to think of it, it may have started off like this and of course, NIN tanking was born.

I just wished SE would have added a 3rd true tanking job class in this game, instead of more DD and support type of jobs (I mean, there's already about 200 BLUs and 100 CORs LFP up and down all levels and only about 100 total NINs and PLDs and numerous other jobs to choose from)

[Jubbermuffin]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

Sup Patch :O

[Patchinko]

Re: Regarding /NIN in PT situations

OMG Jub lives! :D

Say hi to old Meatwallers for me.＾＾