too much MP?

[Patchinko]

Re: too much MP?

Sometimes it feels like the RDM sitting is what triggers the mob to buff itself with Cocoon/Metallic Body/whatever.＾＾

[TheGrandMom]

Re: too much MP?

AGREED! Or some melee will be yelling "Dispel! Dispel!" and even though I know it doesn't need Dispel, I will cast it. (More MP down the drain! Melee please don't yell at us for Dispel unless you're a 100% sure it needs it! You know sometimes you might just be missing or hitting for 0 well....just because SE hates us! LOL) Then right after I cast it, what does the mob do? A dang buff! It's like the mob is saying "Oh! Thanks for reminding me!"

[Khidir]

Re: too much MP?

Or when you don't have enough mp...

Double Post Edited:
I know what you mean G-mom like crawlers spamming cocoon....or beetles with their rhino guard

[arkaine23]

Re: too much MP?

If you've done everything that is exepcted of you, convert is up, and you still have mp to spare you might as well-

1) free nuke the mob's elmental weakness (or a blizzard if you're above 51 and have an Ice/Aquilo's staff)
2) defensively buff yourself in perparation for convert
3) toss out the often-overlooked poison II
4) enjoy it bc the higher you go, the more often you'll be in high-mp expenditure mnk or tp burn pt's (frequently as a main healer with only a bard who's probably too busy singing and pulling to back you up)
5) /brd if the party setup can handle it (whm anbd blm both present) and ditch /blm's mp and convserve mp or /whm's mp for ballad and a small acc or atk boost for the melee's. Ninja's with melody earring and melee's with minuet earring will love you, and you won't hear any complaints from the blm or whm either.

[Slaneyder the Tiny]

Re: too much MP?

It's like the mob is saying "Oh! Thanks for reminding me!"

I second that emotion! How aggravating is that?!

[Ghostraven]

Re: too much MP?

Elvaan here. I don't know what kind of parties some of you guys get into but I NEVER get a chance to sit. Maybe for a tic here and there but then usually someones refresh runs out, the mob buffs itse;f, paralyze wears, gravity wears, skilchain coming up etc... I stopped resting at around 50 in Crawlers nest. I usually have no problems with mp, my nukes get resisted 90% of the time if not in a burst, so I don't bother, but I do find myself checking the convert /recast very often

I agree, use it as soon as it's available.

[Bothari]

Re: too much MP?

On top of that, you're probably fighting at least 2 monsters in that period, so you're spending 31 + 6 + 6 + 15 = 58MP or more.

@56 if u're fighting 2 mobs in 150 seconds then in an hour you're fighting 48 mobs. Say you average 180 exp per mob (VT+ - IT-) Then you're making 8600+ exp/hour w/o an Empress band. DAM i'd like that pt. Second, I dont think i've ever been in a pt where i've had to refresh/haste every single member (except mana burn).

More realistically, I'd say 4 refresh/haste per cycle is normal (including self) and 5 debuffs. So each cycle you lose (40 * 4) + 6 + 15 + 30 + 5 + 24 = 240. We get back 150 from self refresh so the net loss is 90 MP every 150 seconds (if we consider a 4.5k/hour pt of 24 fights/hour).

Now at 56 you have access to a dark staff and with the same 2 ticks of resting you're going to get back about 60 MP. If you go as blm sub then over time conserve MP should give a saving of about 7.5-10%. That's about 18-24 MP per 240 MP spent. So that leaves 12 MP that you need to make up. If we take a hume's base MP @ 56 (424) and if he's losing 12 MP per 150 seconds, then in 1 hour he'll have lost 288 MP (unrecovered) which would still leave him with 136 MP. So technically he could go for another 20 mins or so on w/o converting or slowing the party down (notice the pt's still doing 4.5k/hour).

Now if he's having to use dispel twice per fight, That's another 50 MP per 150 seconds which he isnt making up. That would deplete the MP pool fast and may need some management but basically even at optimal performance you really shouldnt need to convert every 10 mins till sky roaming pts unless you're main healing.

[arkaine23]

Re: too much MP?

Shouldn't need to convert vs its up so why not is what we're driving at. Maybe some like to conserve and hold back Convert until its absolutely needed. But I feel you are doing more for the party if, once Convert is up, you start tossing all spare MP as rapidly as possible until ready to use that Convert. Semi-resisted free nukes/drains/aspirs, regens, small cures, random hastes, self-buffs... whatever it takes to put that MP to at least a semi-productive use is mp well spent, since its basicaly free/bonus MP.

[Icemage]

Re: too much MP?

I'm lucky if I get two ticks of rest in an hour ever since I hit about level 50. There's no way you can rest 2 ticks per Refresh cycle consistently.

Basic problem is that you have to be standing at the start of the fight (for enfeebles) and standing at the end of a fight (for Dispel). Other than on Chain #1, maybe Chain #2 where you might get lucky and have your Refresh/Haste cycle land right on an open window where you're resting between pulls, there's really not enough time to get any rest. Later pulls tend to be faster, and it's nearly impossible to find 20 seconds of uninterrupted time to get any MP back.


Icemage

[Patchinko]

Re: too much MP?

Now if he's having to use dispel twice per fight, That's another 50 MP per 150 seconds which he isnt making up. That would deplete the MP pool fast and may need some management but basically even at optimal performance you really shouldnt need to convert every 10 mins till sky roaming pts unless you're main healing.

Ah, but you missed the point. It isn't that one shouldn't need to convert every ten minutes, it's that since it's a free MP pool, you should try to adjust your playstyle so that you do need to convert every ten minutes. Otherwise you're wasting MP potential.

RDM is completely different from the other mage jobs in this respect. While they are all about conserving mana and only using it when it will have the greatest return, we basically make it a goal to be empty exactly every ten minutes so that we can be running at optimal performance.　We can always be casting something, be it hasting another melee, sticking another enfeeble, or nuking.

Plus, it scares your PT and that's usually fun.＾＾

[Bothari]

Re: too much MP?

you should try to adjust your playstyle so that you do need to convert every ten minutes. Otherwise you're wasting MP potential.

What's an rdm role in exp. What are we invited for? And No, The answer is not "Refresh". We're there to keep the party going.. as fast as you can at all times. If u've ever been in an pt w/o an rdm (or brd) u'll notice it'll go slower even if the mages never run out of MP. There are plenty of ways we do this and plenty of play styles. Yes, Converting every 10 mins and seeing that you use the whole MP pool just when convert is ready to go again is one way. It has its benefits in that each fight may be faster.
The problem with this is that if you get an add or anything happens to break the cycle and you end up using too much MP before your convert is up then u've just slowed your pt down. Where, if you'd saved your convert, you could survive keeping 2 adds slept for however long needed (this is easy with sleep sleep 2 and bind... and when u've perfected this try keeping 4 of them slept.. you'll need it for Desert Swarm) and then when your pts done with them u still have convert up and are back to full MP and can main heal while the other mages in your pt rest.
This is one of those debates which has been going on in ffxi for as far as i can remember and the jury is still out.

We can always be casting something, be it hasting another melee, sticking another enfeeble, or nuking.

True we can.. but should we. That is based on your play style. When you've finished 4 haste/refreshes and 5 enfeebs (this takes 1 mins.. ) and have another whole minute in a fight, You could stay standing with the whm or you and the whm could take turns taking a knee. Which is more effecient, depends on the mob and the situation.

While they are all about conserving mana and only using it when it will have the greatest return, we basically make it a goal to be empty exactly every ten minutes so that we can be running at optimal performance.

On the contrary, Our job is to see that the pt gets the most it can possibly get from each swing of a weapon to each single MP in the pt's MP pool.

[Icemage]

Re: too much MP?

I guarantee I am more effective using Convert every 10 minutes and spending an extra 900MP in that time than any non-Converting red mage over that same time period.


Icemage

[Bothari]

Re: too much MP?

And I guarantee that my party will live and continue to fight as effeciently as ever no matter what. And that without me wasting 900 MP (btw the OP doesnt have 900 MP) every 10 mins (which doesnt mean i dont convert if i'm low).

As I said this debate has gone on for ever. Both have their pros and cons. My side chooses to save it esp since our 2hr is useless w/o MP and your side opts for a slightly higher effectiveness (If you're not resting then u're losing atleast 60 MP every 2 mins) at the risk of a useless 2hr.

Also, convert scales up as you get more base MP. At 75 in roaming pts, there's no way you're going to be effective w/o using convert. At 56, in that 10 mins as i mentioned resting for 2 tics per fight will get you 300 MP, which taken against a normal convert return of 600 MP isnt too bad.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: too much MP?

It depends on the play style. Sometimes I'm lucky enough in melee PTs to not need to Convert. I try to budget it so that I don't need to rely. When I first started doing them, I'd be pressed for MP with still 2:30 left to go

But I've come to the point where I can do my thing, then rest for like 2 ticks while the mob is being pilfered, and I'm good to go.

It's all about personal playstyle, I feel. There is no "right" way, because a lot of things can be wasteful- ie, RDM and BLM both MBing on a mob at 70+ when the mob is at 20%, and the BLM can handle it just fine.

[Icemage]

Re: too much MP?

300MP isn't significant? If I spend 200 of that on Cures, that's 200MP that the party's main healer doesn't have to spend, and still leaves me with a 100MP last minute slush fund for Chainspell if necessary. I would much rather let them have that MP than leave them with less MP and me with a bit more MP for Chainspell since I'm going to be at full MP anyway after Convert.

I fail to see your logic here. It's not like we're proposing that you plan to spend yourself down to exactly 1MP at the 10 minute mark - you spend as usual to leave yourself with enough for emergency casting, then juice your MP spending right before Convert comes up so that you're getting an efficient exchange.


Icemage