too much MP?

[IxX3xil3d0n3XxI]

hello im a rdm56/blm28 im wondering if i should be converting more and if im not using "enough" mp. every fight i refresh myself and all mages, and haste all melee. i dia II, blind, paralyze, slow, drown (to reduce dmg) and nuke 1-2 spells if needed and dispels every fight.

i do not convert that much at all...i use it as a last resort of if healing is needed and i have to do my refresh/haste patterrn again. shoult i be using convert everytime its timer is ready or as long as i get what needs done its ok? Also i do rest with the dark staff so that helps a lot to build up the mp. thanks

[Rodin]

Re: too much MP?

Honestly, if you're keeping the mob constantly enfeebled and dispelled, nuking for a magic burst every skillchain, and keeping a refresh/haste pattern up, it doesn't matter if you convert or not. Just because you have a job ability, doesn't mean you have to use it if it's not necessary. I've known RDMs that will convert once every 30-45 minutes, because they're very good at MP conservation. They'll keep refresh up (I don't let my RDMs haste the tank, I do that, obsessive compulsive I'm sure, but my capped enhancing magic skill makes up for that >.>), enfeeble, dispel, and nuke, and do a damn good job at RDM. Not converting doesn't make you a bad player. Not doing your job properly does though (I.E. Not refreshing, enfeebling, dispelling.)

[Jei]

Re: too much MP?

With darkstaff and sitting down, you have some downtime. With convert to instantly gain back all your MP, the downtime is non existance. I think this is a pretty clear advantage of convert. Personally I have an MP threshold for myself, I can't remember how much MP I had at level 58 but everytime my MP goes below 100, I will convert after the battle. If convert is not ready, I'll rest before the battle ends, just so the PT can keep on pulling for more chains.

[IxX3xil3d0n3XxI]

Re: too much MP?

yea i understand what your saying with the no rest factor. if my MP is below 100 i usually stoneskin(if in battle) + regen then convert and cure IV. but if my mp is at half or a little less i rest with dark staff ( provided i have my patteren of haste and refresh and all enfeebs on) i just dont see a point in converting if there are other ways to gain MP back and it does no halt party pulling whatsoever

i love convert its one of my favorite things, but rather than spamming it every 10 min i like to rest and use it for emergencies like links or a accidental death

[WishMaster3K]

Re: too much MP?

Convert isn't a necessary tool, rather, it is something that we use when we are out of MP. The fact that you're doing so much and conserving Convert is a testament to your skills, good job

However, don't be so adamant about saving Convert. Like Jei said, do it at a comfortable level. Often, I'll try to stretch it, and Convert when I have like 20MP left, not enough for a suitable Stoneskin, effectively having me wait 9seconds for the MP to do so.

Worsely, this may happen inbetween a spell cycle or midmatch. It's important to utilize Convert at the right times. Just a bit more practice in different PT situations and you'll understand.

[Jei]

Re: too much MP?

For normal situation I try to avoid converting mid battle. It can be a huge hate spike for both you and the Whm. Probably because I use primarily /whm too. Convert and goddess seal are always together in my macro.

About emergancies, I think of it this way. If you keep your MP full with convert, you'll have the MP to use anyway.Without risking uneccesary hate from convert too.

[Fynlar]

Re: too much MP?

Whenever Convert is up you should be making an effort to increase your MP usage so you can use it all up and regain it. Any time your Convert is ready and not counting down until reuse is potential MP wasted, and if you're not making use of that you're not taking advantage of your full potential.

Note that I'm not saying you should make sure that all your MP is already burned fast enough such that you're waiting for your Convert to be ready. But once Convert IS up, it's ok to push your MP usage a little bit. MB more skillchains, or something. Don't let it sit there lingering for an hour waiting for an emergency to come up, that's what the party's 2hrs are supposed to be there for.

[Icemage]

Re: too much MP?

Someone has a selective memory.

Haste = 40MP
Refresh = 40MP
Dia II = 31MP
Blind = 8MP
Paralyze = 6MP
Slow = 15MP
Dispel = 30MP

Average length of a fight in a decent party: ~60 seconds or less.

Of 6 party members, unless you have a Ranger, Corsair, or Bard in your party, you'll be casting Haste and Refresh on all 6 members per your description.

The duration of Refresh is 150 seconds, Haste being slightly more at 180 seconds, which means you're spending 6 x 40 = 240MP every 150 seconds on those spells alone - net 90MP loss.

On top of that, you're probably fighting at least 2 monsters in that period, so you're spending 31 + 6 + 6 + 15 = 58MP or more.

That results in a net loss of 148MP for you every 150 seconds, if you cast nothing else - no Dispel, no backup cures, no recast on resisted enfeebles, no Sleep II on links, no Gravity.

Even with Conserve MP contributing maybe 10% to your spell costs, you're still bleeding MP at a ferocious rate.

I don't believe your claim that you're getting any significant amount of MP from resting. In a typical party it takes at least 40 seconds to complete a Refresh cycle for 3 spellcasters. Fights come in every 60 seconds or so, and you'd have to be up and ready to cast Dispel or emergency cures, which means you have at most around 30 seconds at any stretch to rest, which gives you 2 ticks of rest under the best of circumstances. Any RDM who is resting enough to get more than a tick of rest - two at most - is neglecting their duties.

With a Bard in your party with Ballad x 2, you might be able to stabilize and not Convert (or possibly with a Corsair + Summoner and Evoker's Roll) except under emergencies. Without that extra MP, you're losing around 600-700MP net per 10 minutes before figuring in Dispel, Cures, or any other additional magic.


Icemage

[IxX3xil3d0n3XxI]

Re: too much MP?

well i am no "surviving" from timer to timer on convert i to the pattern of haste / refresh and the enfeebs in between with the nukes and occasional cure.

but when i have finished spellcasting as in all who need it have refresh and haste and the has the enfeebs stuck to it i equip dark staff and rest only getting up for dispel and emergency curing until the next pattern is needed or until the next mob comes in...

with what im doing i find myself being able to keep mp without a drastic strain unless i deviate from my pattern so i dont know whats so unbelieveable about that

[Khidir]

Re: too much MP?

Maybe its because I am elvaan and i prefer not to below 200 mp in a exp pt I have about 560 mp or about 490 and i don't like to hurt the chain by going below i only go below if i know i need to add some magic dd to finish the mob off and only if convert is available

I keep the 200 for emergencies and crap am i high maintenace?

[Aeni]

Re: too much MP?

I'm more like what Icemage describes. Well, in a good PT, like my last one in Uleugerand Range (That damn Tarutaru DRG kept pulling those raptors like he's into S&M but quite good at it with only getting a link ONCE the entire 2 hours there)

I converted on the dot, but made sure the 2 tanks were hasted and everyone who needed to be refreshed (4 players in that PT) were refreshed on the cycle.

It's interesting to note here that the JP players in past few PTs actually told me I should not refresh people if their MP pool is near (~75%+) full. I guess they do not believe in working the "cycle-clock" and firmly believe refresh to be used as a bandaid. Not sure how they fare in their parties, but it seems to me they have an issue with me not "resting" (I can't ever rest with pullers like that DRG)

They get scared when I convert. LOL

Oh yes ...

So my personal opinion of what an MP pool means to a mage? IMHO ... a near full MP from fight to fight does not mean the party is efficient. It means that the mage is not being efficient with him/herself or being AFK way too many times. I've been in a party before with a WHM at near full mp every end of fight. But I'm like at 0 MP. And this WHM is never responsive. Must be a bot. Must be...

[Jei]

Re: too much MP?

I never had any JP telling me about my refresh cycle before. Interesting. As a matter of fact I hardly ever gotten any directions from JP at all. Except for HNM and Dynamis.

IMO keeping the cycle going is much much easier than refreshing when MP goes low. Easier for refresher, and better for MP users too.

I kind of do that for Drk tho. If Drk MP goes below a certain point, I'll add them to the end of my refresh cycle.

[Slaneyder the Tiny]

Re: too much MP?

I don't quite remember what my MP was at in that level range. I suppose I could whip out a pencil and figure it out, but math was never my strong point.

At any rate, I see where both you and Icemage are coming from. Couple problems with IM's math I noticed, though.

Typically, if you have a white mage in your party, I don't see why you'd be hasting all 3 melees. I always let the white mage do the better part of the hasting, and I'll take one. So that's 80 MP saved right there. In a lot of my parties, white mages will cast Dia II to keep up with Enfeebling. If your tank is a ninja, chances are they're going to be using some ninjitsu enfeebles (the most common ones I've seen spammed are slow and blind), so that's even more MP saved. Some mobs don't need dispelled; gobs come to mind (with the exception of white mage flavored ones), as well as flies. More MP. Now consider the fact that Conserve MP kicks in, that's even more. Race? Are you taru? There's a buttload. Stick in a random resting point here and there, and you've got more.

Your claim of having ample time in between converts isn't altogether unfathomable. I don't recall being stretched at that level, and I've always been a habitual /whmer.

Fylnar has a great point too. If you know you have a convert coming up, and you have MP to burn...go for it. No sense in letting it go to waste.

--Slane

[Patchinko]

Re: too much MP?

If you are doing everything you should be, but you have no need to convert, then you can do even more. I'm currently at around 733MP as 63RDM/BLM. I was in a party this evening that was easy on refreshing (me, PLD, WHM), so I pushed skillchains when my convert was up because I wasn't out of mana. I switched to main healing in addition to my normal duties while letting the WHM charge up for the whole fight so that we could continue the chain.

There will always be an occassion for you to use convert. If you do not have it, you should find ways to make sure you use it. It is basically instant MP, so there's literally no reason not to use it.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: too much MP?

Typically, if you have a white mage in your party, I don't see why you'd be hasting all 3 melees. I always let the white mage do the better part of the hasting, and I'll take one. So that's 80 MP saved right there. In a lot of my parties, white mages will cast Dia II to keep up with Enfeebling. If your tank is a ninja, chances are they're going to be using some ninjitsu enfeebles (the most common ones I've seen spammed are slow and blind), so that's even more MP saved. Some mobs don't need dispelled; gobs come to mind (with the exception of white mage flavored ones), as well as flies.

Well, I prefer to do the hasting actually. I will leave the tank for the whm but if they slack off, and they do, then I tell them to forget it and I do it. Fitting in your haste with your refresh cycle is just too convienent.

If I pt with a nin, I like to work out with them what enfeebles they are casting. I've seen too many rdm's that compete with the ninja to see if they can get off their enfeebles faster. But I'm always aware of if the ones they use stick or not and if they do not, I make sure to cast them. Funny thing is, I rarely pt with nins, so with a pld I must do a full set of enfeebles.

I disagree about the Goblins. Blm gobs, drk gobs, and gobs that hang out with spell casting gobs all need to be dispelled. (Dang gobs casting buffs on one another gets annoying!) Unfortunately, in the upper lvls, we tend to fight mobs that do some sort of buff that we have to be watching for and dispel. I mean we aren't busy, are we? LOL

My average spell casting for a fight is:

Stoneskin
Blink
Phalanx (sometimes, depends on the tank )

Haste 1
Refresh 1

Silence or Dispel (this is cast as needed and bumps one of the other spells below down a notch)
Paralyze
Slow

Haste 2
Refresh 2

Blind
Gravity
Poison 2 (if needed because no blm or blm didn't cast it..and only cast at this point if dia or bio were cast. It's a very fast cast and easy popped in between the refreshes)

Haste 3
Refresh 3

(At this point I'm usually popping off a cure or recasting an enfeeble that wore)
(Here is sneak in an Aspir or Drain depending on need and if the mob can be drained or aspired!)

Refresh 4
(I lock down at 3 Hastes, if that. I do not believe that everyone needs Haste and I base the need of who does by watching the pt. If the mnk is grabbing too much hate and sucking up mp by needing heals, then he will no longer receive a haste, and so on.)

(At this point the fight is nearly over or hopefully is over. I will regen people that could use a few ticks of hp while the puller pulls. I will also cure.)

I didn't put down Dia or Bio simply because I rarely get a chance to cast these. They are usually covered by the whm or the blm in the pt. I will slip them in if no one is covering them but before I do I will politely ask the whm or blm to cast them.

Add in probably at least one more Dispel or Silence a fight, if it's that type of mob. Seems you can never get away with just one!

Many times I'm too busy casting other stuff to Magic Burst but there are occasions if I have the MP to spare that I will slip one in.

So now, thats quite the busy schedule. There is no time in there for sitting. One tick or two, like Icemage said, is about all I can get in. It never fails that I go to rest and an enfeeble wears, the mob buffs itself, or an emergency cure needs to be cast. Thats just what its like to be a rdm.