RDM/PLD over RDM/DRK?

[WishMaster3K]

Just thinking, that in terms of faming longevity (notlike we didn't have any in the first place), I'm thinking that PLD might be a better sub for farming/etc over DRK now.

Well, I mean, it might be situational, because as it stands, with DRK we get many NICE tricks:

-Stun
-Soul Eater
-Last Resort
-Drain
-Aspir
- 2 Attack Bonuses

In terms of farming while keeping our main RDM skills intact and buffing us on the strength end, it seems DRK is an ideal sub, even still, but with PLD receiving Auto-Refresh at 35, have the scales been tipped favorably in their favor?

With PLD subbed, we still get Vorpal Blade, and Flash can be more useful than Stun in some instances, in addition to raising our unused Divine Magic. We already have Refresh, and I can comfortably farm DCs in Castle Zvahl Baileys with enough MP to last me my Convert Cycle. So herein lies my conflict:

What would be the benefit of subbing PLD vs DrK in multiple scenarios. I'm willing to sacrifice the 6 bullets i posted above for additional longevity in the field. . . But do we really need it?

[Jei]

Re: RDM/PLD over RDM/DRK?

refresh alone makes me want to use pld as sub already. ^^ I'm never a big fan of faster kill to begin with. I enjoy the survivability and longevity of Rdm. So, not only refresh, we also get vorpal blade, shield boost and defense bonus. All these utilities just match my defensive play style.

[Armando]

Re: RDM/PLD over RDM/DRK?

In my opinion, /PLD offers more in a duo/trio scenario because of Flash, Shield Bash, Sentinel, and Cover. You can use Shield Bash and Sentinel at any time to spike hate in your favor, you can use Flash to keep your partner(s) from being hit, or Cover (works well with Stoneskin) if things get ugly. Regardless, /PLD offers...

- Defense Bonus II (+22 Defense): Self-explanatory, lowers the damage you take, shines more against enemies with high Attack.
- Auto Refresh: 1 MP/3 secs, 20 MP/minute, 200 MP/Convert cycle. Self-explanatory.
- Flash: Arguably better than stun from a DoT point of view. An unresisted Flash lasts just long enough for 3 hits (12-13 seconds) especially if you cast it just before the enemy attacks. You can also avoid TP moves if you can anticipate them (for example, when you know the enemy has more than 100 TP, and you're about to take him to <20% of his HP.) If anything else, you can use it to almost ensure a long spell cast (Stoneskin, etc.) Flash is more useful the harder you're being hit for.
- Shield Mastery I: Grants an extra 1 TP when shielding hits. Every 6 shield blocks will grant you almost as much extra TP as a sword swing. Requires you to gain TP in the first place (i.e. shielding through Stoneskin won't give you 0 + 1 TP.)
- Cover: Allows you to throw yourself in front of a party member and protect him/her regardless of the current hate situation. Works well coupled with Stoneskin and/or Blink. Lasts 15 seconds and its cooldown time isn't as big as other abilities (2 minutes) so you can use it more liberally.
- Shield Bash/Sentinel: Both spike hate. Shield Bash may be lousy to interrupt Bomb Toss, but it's almost guaranteed (need to confirm that...but I haven't seen it fail yet) to stop spells. Sentinel can be used to secure hate from afar, since it doesn't target the mob.
- Resist Sleep I: Increases your chances of resisting Sleep spells. Highly situational, rarely useful, but nice to have, especially when you consider we don't get Bardark/Barlight.
- Undead Killer: Self-explanatory
- Holy Circle: Stacks with Undead Killer for a better intimidation proc rate, or can be used to grant party members Undead Killer if you're not "tanking."
- Vorpal Blade: Most reliable/powerful Sword WS available to you at 100 TP
- Banish I/II: If you're fighting bones for whatever reason, you can use this right before a skillchain/Vorpal Blade to remove physical resistances.

NIN sub may mitigate damage better in a solo situation, but PLD gives you handy tools for managing hate and saving other people some damage. PLD also seems more useful when you or other people are getting hit for significant damage, because of the nature of Flash. PLD sub also doesn't rely on the mob having an MP pool in order to reap the benefits of Auto Refresh, although Aspir is better when you can use it. It also gives you some nice little benefits for fighting undead. The other nice thing about /PLD is that it gives you a defensive edge while also giving you an offensive benefit (Vorpal Blade.) I think it's worthwhile mentioning that if you use Flash -> Cover (after Flash wears, naturally) you buy someone else almost 30 seconds of not being hit.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: RDM/PLD over RDM/DRK?

Well my PLD is 16, and with all the noobs, it's a perfect time to come back to the game. I'll do it next month tho, when I'm sure I'll have some money to pay for it again. Or not, I'm sure I can make it to 37 within 2 weeks.

Thanks for the insight, Armando.

[Taskmage]

Re: RDM/PLD over RDM/DRK?

Armando clobbered this one. Nothing left to say but I agree.

[Armando]

Re: RDM/PLD over RDM/DRK?

No problem ^^ One last bit about Flash: you'll still get hit through it every now and then, because the game only allows you to have a maximum of 80% evasion (or a minimum of 20% accuracy, depending on how you like to look at it.) However, if you get enough people with Flash to cycle through it (4 people assuming maximum recast timers) indefinetely, that means it doesn't matter who has hate, since you'll only take one out of every 5 hits or so ;P Haven't actually seen this tactic used yet...don't know why, really. But it sounds solid on paper.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: RDM/PLD over RDM/DRK?

Because only WHM and PLD have flash, and with the timer, I'm estimating that you'd need at least 3 people with flash at MAXIMUM potency for it to work, meaning that 4 people is more likely, right?

That's a PLD and 3 WHM, not that often to get that. In addition, it's only viable to have those sort of numbers on Gods. . Which resist shit like pros. So i guess that's why it's not that viable.

Personally, I'd like to do things like making a bunchof jobs have an alliance and just go through a place like rolanberry getting stray exp >.>

[Taskmage]

Re: RDM/PLD over RDM/DRK?

1 pld tank setup + 2 pld DD setup + whm = exp?

Double Post Edited:
+ brd >_>

[Armando]

Re: RDM/PLD over RDM/DRK?

Because only WHM and PLD have flash, and with the timer, I'm estimating that you'd need at least 3 people with flash at MAXIMUM potency for it to work, meaning that 4 people is more likely, right?

That's a PLD and 3 WHM, not that often to get that. In addition, it's only viable to have those sort of numbers on Gods. . Which resist shit like pros. So i guess that's why it's not that viable.

The reason you'd need four people is because the duration is only 12-13 seconds, and the recast is 45...12 * 4 = 46. If you Haste everyone, though, the recast becomes 37, and then you only need 3 (12 * 3 = 36). If you use Haste allows, you could pull it off with PLD, RDM/PLD, and WHM, which isn't all that strange with the exception of the RDM's sub. Unconventional? Yeah, but it does have some interesting properties. For example, almost all damage can be avoided in this manner without the use of shadows. Also, because it's the mob that's being impaired, it doesn't matter much which party member holds hate. Not needing shadows technically speeds up the melees since Utsusemi is such a cumbersome spell (particularly the Ichi version.) It also means they can use a more efficient sub. If you happen to have a SMN, you can toss Earthen Ward or Aerial Armor to stop stray hits. I guess it'd be like a mix of a traditional party and one of those "meleeburn" endgame merit point parties.

I think the most interesting property of a Flash rotation is that unlike Utsusemi, its efficiency isn't hindered by the enemy's attack speed. The enemy could attack every 2 seconds, or attack kraken/Charybdis style, yet you'd still be preventing the great majority of its attacks as long as the Flash rotation goes on. It can also prevent physical AoE damage.

It's unconventional, yes...but don't you think throwing 4 Melee/NINs at a mob is unconventional too? Easier, yes, but still...an indefinite Flash rotation has its own merits (you could even stop Hundred Fists without having to fall back on Chainspell, or Sleeping the mob through it.) You'd think people would've found at least one situation where it's useful. What about Ultima Weapon? I haven't read much on the later chapters of CoP to avoid spoilers, but I understand it has added effect Stun which really messes with PLD tanks. With some serious Flashing power you could really cut the PLD some slack.

Another neat trick just occurred to me: with Chainspell + Flash, a single RDM could theoretically keep a group of mobs from hitting someone else, something which isn't possible through Utsusemi (with the exception of Chainspell + Utsusemi, but that's assuming the RDM is actually the target.)

1 pld tank setup + 2 pld DD setup + whm = exp?

Double Post Edited:
+ brd >_>

Yeah, something like that is what I imagined. Though, I don't think you'd need a tank PLD, since each one has his own MP pool...you could just let hate bounce between them, and they can probably cure away whatever damage they take from stray hits. How many slots you'd have to devote to PLDs would depend on the support from the backline (Haste on each person already frees one slot from the bare minimum of required people; RDM/PLD would also free up one slot that would've otherwise gone to a PLD, etc.)

[Icemage]

Re: RDM/PLD over RDM/DRK?

Note that RDM/DRK still has more utility in end-game situations due to Chainspell/Stun being so powerful.

For solo... hmm.. Flash is probably more useful than Stun since it tends to last longer, but isn't useful for stopping spells against enemies that are hard to Silence (Ahriman).

I'd say if you're OK with kill speed and have issues maintaining MP/HP levels, RDM/PLD probably works better for solo, and definitely works better in small-group (2-4) situations where you aren't the primary damage dealer and don't need Stun.

Another amusing option is RDM/BLU. Coccoon is 10 MP for +50% DEF, and is accessible at BLU8.


Icemage

[WishMaster3K]

Re: RDM/PLD over RDM/DRK?

All PLDs need now is their own Hate spiking tool. Interstingly, I was looking at old FFs and other MMOs and saw their versions of PLDs as intersting and widely varied.

PLDs in WoW are DDs. They have the same properties, more or less, as PLDs in FFXI, but since the job system is so cumbersome, and there are no Subjobs, PLDs are delegated to DDing support for Undead fights. . . (FFXI has me spoiled in that I can switch my job without switching my character. That's why, I think, that extra characters cost more, since the system is so flexible. . .)

Mystic Knights with White Magic are the closests I can see in games like FFV. And Steiner from FF9 draws some parallels to these too, being able to harness the power of spells in their swings. Maybe PLDs and RDMs should BOTH get Enspells, but have them do different things?

Like RDMs can use Enspells as "Antenna" for spells (Enblizzard makes Paralyze stronger, Enstone for slow, etc etc), while a PLD's Enspells would add largely to their damage, or at least, unlike regular enspells, draw additional hate.

At the very least, add more dynamics between BLMs and PLDs to influence more BLM + PLD combos in the party. Having a BLM power up the PLD every 5 or so minutes (job ability idea!!! *Lightbulb*) to cast Thunder4 or Flare sword would be GREAT for damage AND hate mitigation.

Ok, I detracted a bit, but I started out by saying that PLD should probaly be self-tanks not so reliant on WAR sub, mainly because a PLD/RDM with Phalanx that could keep hate just as well as PLD/WAR nowadays woud be an easy solution to closing the gap between PLDs and NIN. This way, RDMs keep our coveted spell, Reduced damage at the cost of damage OUTPUT, PLDs getting more MP overall, constituting a decent trade off. . . I could go on.

The upgrade to shields and Auto-Refresh were positive changes and leveled the playing field a bit more. Now, PLDs aren't so RELIANT on pt members, even tho they still need party dynamics and team work. Auto-Refresh takes some of the edge off (like when the PLD has 8MP, and you still have to Refresh them because yours wore, but you needed to Convert, so you're a few seconds behind ._. )

While I think that if PLDs got a major damage reduction "upgrade" it would make them more coveted than NINs in more instances, it would all be more fair, I'd say. NINs avoid damage totally, deal great melee damage and can dubuff their own targets. PLDs should be able to function differently, but equally.

(In hindsight, these changes are a ibt much, because PLDs have a supreme hate-keeping and maintaining advantage over NINs 9 times out of 10. . .)

[nazlfrag]

Re: RDM/PLD over RDM/DRK?

Another amusing option is RDM/BLU. Coccoon is 10 MP for +50% DEF, and is accessible at BLU8.

If there is a hate spike tool there too, then pld/blu would be unstoppable...

[Gobo]

Re: RDM/PLD over RDM/DRK?

for soloing/Duo/trio, RDM/PLD definatly is pretty good option now. But has Icemage said, /DRK is much more useful in endgame situations. I think theres a pick of a RDM/PLD Chainspell-Flashing Summoned Seriyu from Kirin and Flash only lasted 1 hit, occationally 2. Lemme see if I can find it.

ahh heres the link:

http://archdominus.valkurm.com/forum...ainspell+flash

[Khidir]

Re: RDM/PLD over RDM/DRK?

I'm actually suprised since of auto-refresh that many plds haven't brought back up rdm for solo as a sub has very good potential with the main job having its own enhancing magic

but then again not much would separate pld from rdm since they could be a second rdm am I right?

[tdh]

Re: RDM/PLD over RDM/DRK?

For me, I'm so reliant upon Aspir and Drain, I don't know that I could make this change. When I go out and solo melee, I have like 200 less MP than my EXP gear. Now at Lv.71, I sub DRK for Aspir, Drain, and Vorpal Blade. I've sub'd WAR a few times, but then I really wish I had Drain and Aspir. So the Stun/Flash option/arguement isn't an issue for me yet.

Now I see the pros to sub'n PLD, but for the way I play it's not so much an option. (That and my PLD is still in the teens. lol) Something I'm interested in suddenly, is the mention to sub'n BLU. I've unlocked all the new jobs, but the only one I've really touched has been PUP. (That little Robot is powerful!)