new RDM spell

[Icemage]

Re: new RDM spell

Asking for Raise II for RDM is like asking for Mage's Ballad II or Thundaga III. You're encroaching on the defined limits of another job. This is why there is a WHM job. If you'd rather be handing out Raise II and Raise III... play WHM.

WHMs pay a very heavy price to be able to cast those spells, because they have no offensive power to speak of, and have the weakest MP-recovery ability of all mage jobs. NOT having higher level Raise / Regen / Nukes is part of the price that Red Mages pay, in return for access to Convert, Refresh, and Phalanx.


Icemage

[kman]

Re: new RDM spell

If you consider Raise II to be a spell that is attained through merits meaning you can not get it any sooner than 75, than it isn't encrouching on WHM territory. The big EXP parties today lie in Manaburn, War/Nin Burns, and Monk Burns. The only time a whm is actually needed is in Monk burns and very specific War burns. The whm isn't needed there for the curing or the raises. People no longer have the mindset of defeating the monsters, but instead defeating them most effeciently (fast). So if whm today got Raise IV which gave raises with no exp loss at all, he/she still would not get entrance to those parties for that reason alone. The major reason for whm in an exp pt @ 75 is for stona, and in monk burns the assistance of -na spells. Their working on making WHM more of an attractive job for exp, or I think SE should simply introduce high level IT++ mobs to exp off where people could do chain 6 or 10 for 300 exp without the ring. This would give both PLD and WHM a nice place to gain 6-10k an hour.

So back on the subject of Raise II. Is it really theft of whm's abilities. Believe me Raise III is still far superior to Raise II. About 1k in exp loss with raise II if I'm not mistaken. People still much rather only take the 200 exp loss with Raise III and whm would be apprecieted. Raise II would not empower RDM any more as it would not give RDM any more invites but it would help in all fights involving massive deaths.

[Sekighara]

Re: new RDM spell

Well the old objective of Red mage is a mage that while is weak in spells make up for it in the use of damaging weapons. This would give players a reason not to focus on using ethers like crazy.

But S-E wanted Red mages to be mages so they gave them the innate ability of faster casting as was mentioned. Now the fact of raise II is kind of open for suggestion, but i personally dont think they should get it, but instead get auto-raise with a 20 min timer,a huge mp-lost, huge delay set like an hour between casts, and the inability to cast on its self. The delay would stop one red mage from doing this to the whole party. This would improve speed in battle because you wont have stop to raise a person and let the rest of the party fend for them self when the tank bites the dust. Now I do understand this will set a trend of red mage parties so the spell should be a .1% drop from a NM like um.. Lets say AE..

Ok im just kidding but Raise II is an important feature that does effect their posistion as a standby mage and a support attacker. Now While some consider them as battle mages Blue Mages will take that job over by subbing of mag classes if the class is similar to how it was in previous FFs. So to support parties i believe they should have more buff -tra. More specific Hastetra..

But Im just a DD that is wishing for a Timemage Class

[Icemage]

Re: new RDM spell

If you consider Raise II to be a spell that is attained through merits meaning you can not get it any sooner than 75, than it isn't encrouching on WHM territory.

In XP parties, sure. But WHM's role at end-game is for Reraise III, Raise III, low-enmity healing, and status removal. As I said earlier in this thread, I don't specifically oppose RDMs getting Raise II at level 75, but it opens the door for more job dilution, which is bad.

So back on the subject of Raise II. Is it really theft of whm's abilities. Believe me Raise III is still far superior to Raise II. About 1k in exp loss with raise II if I'm not mistaken. People still much rather only take the 200 exp loss with Raise III and whm would be apprecieted. Raise II would not empower RDM any more as it would not give RDM any more invites but it would help in all fights involving massive deaths.

Uh... read my sig. WHM75. I'm pretty sure I know how Raise I/II/III work and interact, considering I've been WHM75 for nearly 2 years now. Incidentally Raise II xp loss at level 75 is ~600. That's only a few kills in an XP party, hardly even worth mentioning. Raise I is way more - about 1800.

If you are expecting lots of deaths and don't want the XP loss... bring WHMs.

If you want to help people avoid XP loss when they die... play WHM.


Icemage

[Jei]

Re: new RDM spell

sometimes whm got dispel or die when reraise 3 wears off
i've seen poor whm had to eat raise 1 from me once in a while... just so he/she can raise 3 others.
maybe give us a special raise... "only works on whitemages" hmm >.>

[kazuri]

Re: new RDM spell

Just something I read from PG2 and although I know it has nothing to do with the original topic, thought it might be interesting for other RDM players-

Cheviot/Umbra Cape's Physical DMG -% rate actually doubles at night-time, making it -10/12%. As some might know, there are actually RDM/WARs that play with -47% Physical DMG (can actually exceed) setup and are able to stand quite well, seeing as how RDMs get Stoneskin/Phalanx as backup walls for their lack of HP compared to PLDs. Not to mention we also have a bit of Enmity gear available -and- Fast Cast (+ Warlock’s/Duelist’s.)

I think Icemage has a valid point and arguing with him is pretty pointless, adding a higher Raise or Regen would unbalance the uniqueness of RDMs and WHMs as others pointed out.

Spells like Confuse and Icemage’s idea of buffing up En-spells sounded pretty nifty too.

[Icemage]

Re: new RDM spell

Aside to Kazuri: Should note that some -physdam% items don't work like they "ought" to. Cheviot Cape is -4.7% during daytime, -9.4% at night. I don't have an umbra cape to test with, but I suspect it probably doesn't work quite as advertised either. See this thread for my testing data:

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/496882-post1.html

EDIT: Fixed broken link


Icemage

[WishMaster3K]

Re: new RDM spell

Link is broken, sir.

And yeah. Icemage researches everything that piques his interest. He's basically the NA Grendal ;;

Or Grendal is the JP Icemage.

If IM was RDM 75, then there wouldn't be anything we wouldn't know >.> *hint hint* *cough cough*

[Karinya]

Re: new RDM spell

I think anyone concerned about not having enough raise II/IIIs at HNMs or Dynamis should use reraise2 items, or recruit more WHMs to their LS, or just learn to stop whining about 10 minutes worth of exp. What would your response be to someone who doesn't want to bring food because it takes them half an hour to earn the money for it?

I also think Aeni's point about proposed RDM enhancements being things for the RDM instead of for the party is partly correct (although one of the most frequently proposed, refresh II, would be for the RDM *and* the party).

Accordingly, I suggest:

Phalanx II and Stoneskin II: they have the exact same effect as normal phalanx and stoneskin, for the same MP cost and casting and recast times, but can be cast on party members. (WHM should get Stoneskin II also.)

Gravity II: the movement rate reduction is the same, but evasion reduction is greater than normal Gravity.

Bio and Dia III: it's obvious how these are more beneficial to a party than to a soloer, especially if their mp cost is noticeably higher than II. (BLM and WHM should also get these as appropriate.)


And if WHM really are having trouble finding parties, give them Haste II. WHM get haste earlier than any other job, so unless SE has secret plans to introduce time mages in a later expansion, they're the best candidates for having it, and it would *definitely* make them more desirable in parties, even if it was only slightly stronger than Haste. It would also give ninjas a strong reason to want a WHM rather than another healer.

A job trait that increases the effectiveness of bar spells (so that people with barparalyze, etc. could have say a 25-50% chance to actually RESIST paralyze coming from an exp mob, maybe 10% from HNM) would also be nice, but although that would make WHM more effective, it wouldn't necessarily get them more invites because it's a kind of effectiveness that a lot of players would tend to overlook. (It needs to be a trait to make WHM bars stronger than RDM/WHM bars.) Level 60 is about right for this - it's both when WHM allegedly start having invite problems, and around the time a lot of people start exping on Torama, where this would have a huge impact and therefore a good chance to get noticed.

Both of these reinforce the idea that other jobs can cure, but that doesn't make them a WHM - because in addition to being great at cures, WHM is also great at *protective* spells, stopping damage before it starts, and preventing and removing harmful status. A good WHM doesn't just keep the party alive, but keeps them functioning at 100% (or above, with Haste).

[WishMaster3K]

Re: new RDM spell

Yeah, the vast majority of the gaming population is uneducated on Bar spells.

I've seen WHMs use just BarParalyze on toramas, and forget to include Barblizzardra. Also, as RDM/WHM with capped enhancing, torque and AF pants, my BarSpells outweigh and WHMs. The only WHMs who outweigh me are those with AF2 pants.

It's kinda sad that RDM can sub WHM and be more effective in that area. the only time I NEED a WHM would probably be when we are fighting lizards =[

[Pyroweaver]

Re: new RDM spell

I was thinking about new spells that would make a RDM even more powerful then ever before.

a armor type spell like {Blaze Spike} ext. but its Aspir Spikes only like evcer 1/5hits it activates.

or a Summon spell like a Angel or summtin that lasts 5mins but is a 30min recast time.
(jsut some ideas i was bord)

[Lmnop]

Re: new RDM spell

on RDMs and lizards: If you're /whm, you can technically erase much faster than a real whm could. This would offset lack of stona by a decent margin, I'd think.

Also, as a stupid melee, I have an EXP question. Don't you guys think BRD 55+ is pretty much always more desired than a RDM? With the ability to hit the same refreshing ability as a rdm but AoE AND boost any melee tremendously, it seems like they have quite an advantage. Also, they can't solo Genbu, but BRDs aren't so weak themselves. They can outlast tons of mobs -- They're definately better soloers than samurai, warriors, dark knights, rangers, etc. So basically what I'm getting at is: they can't increase RDM up to par with BRD because that'd overpower them in a solo setting, but it's not like BRDs are solo slackers themselves.

[Jei]

Re: new RDM spell

for ninja tank BRD is awesome.
for pld tank, Rdm is still prefered.
Idealy the entire party can position where they fight so pld can get ballad with mages. But as mentioned already people go for the easy, less-work route. With Rdm's refresh, pld don't have to worry about their posistions.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: new RDM spell

RDM and BRD, I've realized, function fundamentally different. BRDs make the pt stronger and RDMs make the mob weaker. That is why a BRD can make a subpar pt average. A RDM can do that as well, but not to the same degree: No matter how well I paralyze, or slow or whatever, if my tank and/or my melee's suck, the fights are going to be hard.

The BRD + RDM combo is SO strong because you have almost triple-strong characters. Think of enfeebles as making the mob closer to you in level. I notice a huge difference in hitting speed when I'm a NIN and I cast Hojo: I can actually cast utsusemi in between attacks. Blind makes me dodge more and Paralyze saves me in more ways than one: Saves on healing, gives an extra shadow, prolongs the Mob's ability usage.

That's what enfeebles do for just the tank, and buffs make the pt insanely strong. With the RDM lowering the effectiveness of the monster and the BRD raising the effectiveness of the pt at the same time, you can see how two different support jobs don't over lap each other, but work in unison.

Oh, and Erase only gets rid of things that there aren't a healing spell for. Since there is Stona, Erase doesnt work on Petrify ._. I think from your post, you already knew that, but there are only a few instances I've been in where we could completely forgo a WHM in favor of a RDM/WHM. (Kuftal Tunnel on Cocks, Tigers and Ladons; Toramas)

SMNs can heal with Spring Water from Leviathan, but that's a Bloodpact they'd rather save for something equally useless. I like how SMNs are so used to their motions, that they cast Aerial Armor in a pt where everyone has Utsusemi -.-

[Taskmage]

Re: new RDM spell

Yeah, enfeebles are very powerful, and I think underappreciated by most people. It's understandable. With the exception of Paralyze, the effect of debuffs is difficult to see. Unless you're paying very close attention, who's going to notice that the mob only took 17 swings instead of 20 with slow on, or only connected 13 instead of 15 of those hits with Blind on? But the cumulative effect of all those stacked spells is a very significant reduction in the mob's effectiveness. That's to say nothing of the spells we have that allow you to hit harder and more accurately. That's the power a rdm has over a bard.