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**WishMaster3K** · 03-26-2006, 04:01 PM

Re: Rdm Sub???

Task Mage reminds me of myself when I was that level. I think I'm gettin teary-eyed! For SJs, RDM are pretty open-ended, and since I got to this post late, there is nothing to add, drat >.<!

But I'll comment on Hyrist's mention of RDM/BLU, and the more i think about it, the more I get a bit disheartened, because, as is the nature with everything we sub, we'll only be half-complient. The same way I can't stick NIN enfeebles on exp mobs and barely on EP mobs is the same way I expect the debuffing capabilities of /BLU to be gimped. Even sadder is that BLU/RDM won't be DD-compliant.

BUT, I fully expect to transfer my RDM knowledge into the BLU realm, what with equip switching and such. I only hope that BLU get buff skills as well, making a /BLM option viable.

But it remains to be seen, it might be more dangerous for a RDM/BLU to enfeeble, cause if I recall, Haste does not overwrite something like, say, Spider's Web, meaning it is tier 2 slow. . meaning that with an Earth Staff and some MND gear, Spider's Web might be more potent, but not as long-lasting (i'm guessing) as our normal slow. . . Just a thought.

**Wiseman40** · 03-26-2006, 04:05 PM

Re: Rdm Sub???

When I started playing, if I were to /sea all rdm 60-75 every one of them would be /whm. Now every one of them is /blm. I don't know what happened to cause that change. Both seem like viable subjobs. It's probably just a coincidence...

**Taskmage** · 03-26-2006, 04:36 PM

Re: Rdm Sub???

>>Wiseman40 : Well, depending on when you started playing, red mages may not have had all the tools we have today, and were little more than gimp whms. That's just what I hear though. Before my time.

>>WishMaster3K : lol In what way?

Way to cover all the bases and make the rest of us resort to color commentary to get our gil, Squerril. ;p Few minor comments:

/NIN: DW2 comes at 25 for nin, but 50 when subbing it. You might have meant that, but just wanted to make it clear.

/SMN: Auto-Refresh is 1 mp per tick, same as Ballad, but only for you. Ballad > Auto-Refresh. Aerial Armor is about the only useful BP we get from sub. I do want to try Cyclone > Camisado Gravitation > MB Drain for fun though. /smn is a neat toy but as far as I see almost strictly inferior to /brd in exp pt, and entirely useless before level 50.

/DRG: Just want to emphasize that depending on level and equip, /drg doesn't suck as a DD sub.

/RNG: Mostly used in Ballista, afaik. There's better subs for soloing, and you want to sub mage in pt. Wide Scan is a great convenience when farming or NM camping though.

**Squerril** · 03-26-2006, 10:08 PM

Re: Rdm Sub???

Originally posted by Wishmaster3k

But it remains to be seen, it might be more dangerous for a RDM/BLU to enfeeble, cause if I recall, Haste does not overwrite something like, say, Spider's Web, meaning it is tier 2 slow. . meaning that with an Earth Staff and some MND gear, Spider's Web might be more potent, but not as long-lasting (i'm guessing) as our normal slow. . . Just a thought.

There was an entire list of monster abilities and their "levels", as well as spell "levels" written by Apple Pie awhile back...need to find it.

Double Post Edited:
Well, that was easy, after some use of the "Search" button. :p

Direct quote from Apple Pie in the thread "Acid Bolt=Dispel?"

Originally posted by Apple Pie

Studio Gobli has the list in Japanese.
http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Part/6371/

Anyway, here's the list in English. Those that aren't listed here are still unknown.

+Evasion
(R1) Beatle: Rhino Guard
(R1) Big Bird: Feather Barrier
(R1) Pugil: Water Shield
(R2) Antica: Sand Veil
(R3) Tonberry: Sigh

+Defence
(R1) Crawler: Cocoon
(R1) Crab: Scissor Guard
(R3) Antica: Sand Shield
(R1) Orc: Arm Block
(R1) Yagudo: Parry
(R1) Qudav: Shell Guard

+Attack
(R1) MNK: Boost
(R2) WAR: Warcry

-Evasion
(R1) Lizard: Infrasonics
(R1) Bat: Ultrasonics
(R1) G.Axe: Shield Break
(R2) G.Axe: Full Break
(R4) Fenrir: Lunar Cry

-Defence
(R1) Crossbow: Acid Bolt
(R1) G.Axe: Armor Break
(R1) Staff: Shell Crusher
(R2) G.Axe: Full Break

-Attack
(R1) G.Axe: Weapon Break
(R2) G.Axe: Full Break

-Accuracy
(R2) G.Axe: Full Break
(R4) Fenrir: Lunar Cry

**Wiseman40** · 03-27-2006, 05:56 AM

Re: Rdm Sub???

That list doesn't seem to be anywhere close to being complete. It also has several items that are from player jobs, and some beastman abilities which probably won't be blu spells.

**kai_samoht** · 04-24-2006, 07:51 PM

Re: Rdm Sub???

I have a question. I am lv 14 taru rdm. I was wondering, when I get a sub-job would it be bad to start with war, and then when I hit 30 switch over to pld. I really like the sound of what a pld can do, but I just think it wouldn't be that good to lv with my friends. The reason about that is I like to be up in the fight, but I also love to cast magic. So, that was why I was leaning towards the pld and war sub. Any comment would be helpful.

**Icemage** · 04-24-2006, 10:38 PM

Re: Rdm Sub???

Originally posted by kai_samoht

I have a question. I am lv 14 taru rdm. I was wondering, when I get a sub-job would it be bad to start with war, and then when I hit 30 switch over to pld. I really like the sound of what a pld can do, but I just think it wouldn't be that good to lv with my friends. The reason about that is I like to be up in the fight, but I also love to cast magic. So, that was why I was leaning towards the pld and war sub. Any comment would be helpful.

PLD/WAR is a tried and true combination. You're sort of on the wrong development path to get to it, but one of the nice aspects about FFXI is being able to change your current job virtually at will.

RDM just isn't a very effective subjob for WAR, so you may need to take a different path to get to PLD/WAR. First, you need at least one job at level 30 to unlock the Paladin job, so I'd recommend either sticking it out with Red Mage until level 30 or doing something like this:

Monk to 18 (get the support job done at this point)
Warrior to 37 (use MNK as support)
Paladin to 75 (use WAR as support)

Icemage

**arkaine23** · 04-25-2006, 08:27 AM

Re: Rdm Sub???

Figure I'd weigh in on RDM/BRD. I leveld BRD to 37 a few weeks ago to give it a try, and have used it a few times in Lufaise Meadows. I like it a whole lot, and I'm gonna try using it in KRT pretty soon with my LS-mates.

Here's what I lose out on:
97 mp from /blm
Elemental Enfeebles, Escape/Warp, Aspir/Drain, Sleepga, Conserve MP

Here's what I and the party gain:
Madrigal tested to add +11 acc to melees (best melee song IMO, just gotta mention it to melees so they regear a little or think about using meat instead of sushi)
+1mp/tick to mages from ballad
a free mp dispel
a light-based sleeep that might or might not land

Even though I love conserve MP and have a good +20 dark magic skill gear for pretty consistent aspirs, I was not hurting for MP as /brd. The extra 200mp/10 minutes had me doing fine refreshing 3.5 people, hasting 1, MB'ing most fights (although I admit usually the blm MB killed it and my MB was a waste), fully enfeebling the mob, and helping heal. I never really got to take a knee, bc towards the end of the fight, I'd run up to battle with Stoneskin up and sing the acc song. Then as the fight ended me and the pld ran back to the mages for my ballad while the thf pulled.

It kept me busier, but it made the party perform better. This was before the sheild/pld update too. Our pld never got low on mp nor had trouble holding hate. He was fighting sword/shield... actually the guy was uber he had all AFv2. I can just imagine this being even better with people gearing or eating a little differently for more damage.

In a mage-heavy party the benefits of ballad are obvious. In a melee heavy party just try asking sometime if the melees would like a free +11 acc.

Other songs are pretty weak but situationally can be put to some use.
Paeon something like 4hp/tick.
Minuet +14 atk.
Minne +14 def.
Mambo untestable really.
Etudes +3 to stat.
March not tested, I'd guess it at 3% haste, but I could be wrong.
Prelude I've never tested but I'm sure no rng would complain.

**Aeni** · 04-25-2006, 01:21 PM

Re: Rdm Sub???

Yes, there are times when Refresh for a MP heavy PT can be ... well, annoying.

Considering that it's 40 MP per cast and that you get back how much after you cast it 5 times in a round ... I think you actually end up losing MP if I'm not mistakened.

Plus, in parties where the camp is either moving constantly or the pull is a constant stream, there's no time to rest. Hence, it makes more sense to cast something that doesn't cost MP to regain MP and do it all at once.

I'm just feeling a bit insecure without the other stuff that you lose out (Tractor, Escape, Warp, Erase, Cursna, etc.) If you're with a BLM and a WHM anyway, then there's no problem. A RDM could sub whatever at this point ...

**Icemage** · 04-25-2006, 02:52 PM

Re: Rdm Sub???

For 5 spellcaster parties (PLD, BLU, DD, RDM, WHM, BLM for instance), RDM/BRD waaay outperforms RDM/BLM:

5 x Refresh per cycle at 40MP per cast times = 200MP per cycle.
MP returned to you by Refresh in that period = 150MP.
Net MP lost per Refresh cycle: 50.
Number of Refresh cycles per Convert cycle: 4.
Net MP lost per Convert cycle: 200.

That's if you do everything perfectly and cast nothing else, and Convert on the dot every single time. A more realistic figure is probably somewhere around 250 net loss per Convert cycle.

Let's analyze efficiency models here. You get "approximately" 10% return on Conserve MP on average, so your available MP per cycle is:

Max MP + 4 x 150 (4 Refresh casts) = anywhere from 1000 to 1700ish MP.

For sake of argument, I'll use my figures at level 62:

http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/511790-post33.html

RDM/BLM:

Base MP: 823
MP from Refresh: 600
Available MP per Convert cycle: 1423
Approximate MP saved by Conserve MP: 158 (11%)*

Available MP per Convert: 1581
MP spent on 20 Refreshes: 800
Remaining MP to spend: 781 (average)*

* Note that it's 11% and not 10% since you can use the MP you save to cast even more spells, and that Conserve MP is extremely random.

RDM/BRD:

Base MP: 770
MP from Refresh: 600
MP from Ballad: 200

Available MP per Convert: 1570
MP spent on 20 Refreshes: 800
Remaining MP to spend: 770 (consistent)
Additional MP for other 4 spellcasters: 4 x 200 = 800

Look at the teeny tiny difference in available MP to me (-11), and the huge difference in available MP to the party (+800).

Icemage

**Taskmage** · 04-25-2006, 02:56 PM

Re: Rdm Sub???

I'm glad someone else does these kinds of analyses, because I sure never would.

**Aeni** · 04-25-2006, 03:55 PM

Re: Rdm Sub???

Originally posted by Icemage

Icemage

Wow, I knew it was bad, but you were able to show me the numbers to prove it. I should go print this and stick it on those people's asses for whining to me about holding back the PT (Cause I keep running out of MP -- but they always had refresh and melees always had their haste)

**** me. Sometimes I wonder what I got myself into with this job...

**WishMaster3K** · 04-25-2006, 05:17 PM

Re: Rdm Sub???

RDM is fun. Don't worry, we all think that at certain points. Then we go totally own a VT w/o taking damage and we feel better. Fuck the melees. If you're running out of MP Refreshing, that means that one of the jobs your Refreshing should help you Haste. You'll never be refreshing so many people that one of them can't do haste and you'll never be hasting so much people that the mages bitch about Refresh.

Furthermore, for all the WHMs who delegate it to us, FUCK YOU. It's 50/50. I'm perfectly willing to be like "Ok, I'll Haste/Refresh Tank and you do whatever." But when a WHM is content to have ME Haste 2 while they Haste 1, I start the silent /sea all WHM invite.

BLMs and WHMs just don't realize how much time Refreshing/Enfeebling/Buffing simultaneously takes. BLMs are bored with their jobs cause they only do one thing: nuke. WHMs are bored cause they only do one thing: heal.

I'm never bored. It may be monotanous, but I'm doing so much that I don't have time to be bored. Sry BLMs and WHMs, I use more than 4 macros a fight. Don't worry, Aeni. You're the RDM. You wield power that can make or break a party.

PTs will seek for hours to get a RDM so they can get exp instead of fighting without one to get crap. I get tons of invites when I'm subbing WAR or NIN or SMN(which is lvl 8,

) just because people are desperate enough to assume I have other subs. While I'd LOVE to show up as RDM/WAR just to piss ppl off, I won't tarnish my rep. . .

Also, don't be afraid to discuss your limits to the party, make an honest attempt to figure out some way to accomidate everyone's needs, then explain to them that they are ass hats if they're being unreasonable. Sure they have to monitor TP and WS and shit, but the bottom line is that most melee don't know what it's like being a RDM.

My friend is a 55 MNK, and he's like "Oh, go solo something." So I handed him my controller and he was clueless. Being a RDM is the equivalent of being a good NIN; hard, precise and strenuous. Don't let any job make you doubt yourself, because as a RDM, you have the power to save the pt's ass in many situations.

Can BRDs backup heal until the mob is dead if the WHM catches stray aggro? Can a WHM curb the BLM's gimp damage by throwing in a T3 on the MB?

We can hit Chainspell and give the PT 30 seconds of invincibility or instant freedom (I don't hesitate to hit a Tele if i'm /WHM >.>), likewise, we can CS some weak, but never resisted Thunder 3s to finish off the mob.

Stay strong, Aeni!!! Believe in yourself! Ganbatte!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *thumbs up*

**Aeni** · 04-25-2006, 06:26 PM

Re: Rdm Sub???

Renarudo,

I always like reading about your experiences as a RDM and only wished you were still playing (So I can go bug you about pointers and stuff >.< ) I still can do that though .. lol.

But yah, I had a party recently where the WHM started to bitch about refresh.

WHM/SMN >>MP? {Yes, please} <--- omg i actually tried to hit tab for auto-translate >.< And yes, you read that correctly. WHM/SMN ....

Mind you, I'm mid-way casting refresh, just only 1 clock tick off and her refresh *just* wore off on my chat window.

Okay ... here I am hasting the NIN.

DRG/WAR >> {Do you have it?}{Can I have it?}{Yes, please}

Obviously referring to haste. Grrr ... buddy, wait till my Haste timer is ready so I can cast it. I'll get to you bro, don't worry about it. Start to refresh the BLM who's next on the cycle. Then NIN is now whining ....

NIN/WAR >> Can I get a protect?

Ummm.... okay. Didn't the WHM just cast Protectra III just a couple of minutes ago?

NIN/WAR >> My bad, I accidentally took it off. LOL

Sigh ... Give DRG the Haste, toss the P3 on the NIN. About to go and cast Refresh on myself when ...

THF/NIN >> Hey, I need haste too.

You need haste? I bite back a remark and finish recasting Refresh before tossing the Haste on the THF. At this point, paralyze wears off and I recast on the bat. Resist. Yay. Debating on whether I should bother when the NIN all of a sudden loses 300 HP. About to cast Cure III when out of nowhere ... swooosh WHM blasts Cure IV. She gets hate and blasts Cure IV on herself to cure her damage. NIN/WAR vokes.

THF/NIN >> Can I get a haste please?
ME >> I already gave it to you.
THF/NIN >> Oh

What? No "thanks"? Here I am, wondering what I should do .. be amused with the antics of the WHM/SMN or the BLM who's totally going nuts with -ga II and is now casting an AM outside of a skillchain.

WHM/SMN>> MP {Yes, please}

There's almost 1/2 a clock left on that cycle.

OMFG ... just shoot me already. Shoot me!!!!

**WishMaster3K** · 04-25-2006, 07:15 PM

Re: Rdm Sub???

I just read your blog, good job on Castle O. That place is a favorite romp of mine, until you get to the bottom, with that True Sight NM. That area is bad news.

Anyway, I'm glad I can be helpful/entertaining to everyone. Honestly tho, grinding away in the backline for two years gives you a chance to observe a lot of debauchery.

A lot of THFs suck, plain and simple. THF is a HARD job to master, and it's very technical. DRGs with STANDARD gear can outpace THFs who are marginally above average.

I had a static in the late 50s-60s with some LS friends, and we were RDM BRD PLD THF DRG. My BRD friend was very good, and I forgot all the stuff she did during exp, but it was a lot of work: Ballad me AND the PLD, then buff the DRG and the THF, then etude the THF.

He was Elvaan, and his accuracy was like whao. Like, bad. Often, the DRG had to give him his SH so that the THF could keep up. I think he's ok as a THF now, nowhere near as good as my rl friend who has TH4 (thief knife AND THF AF >.>) but that's whatever. Point is, THFs suck. They don't need Haste. A THF that needs/wants Haste is wasting a pt slot.

For one, often when a THF is hasted, they hit SO fast that SATA is often messed up. Idk why that is, but i've seen it happen too many times. So I just don't haste THFs. Besides, THFs should only use weaps under 200 delay, and none of those are very strong. There are those curved ones that are like 28 damage, but THFs should be focusing on getting TP asap, not damage. So the POINT is, THF don't need Haste if they're going to be placing hate or in a WS (the only reason you'd invite a THF)

DRG is a very balanced job, but ppl don't realize it. DRGs don't do uber damage, don't have uber WSs and don't have uber weapons, but they are actually one of the few balanced jobs out there. I think SAM MNK and DRG are the most effective and consistent dds, but that's a different story altogether. DRGs should get Haste, only cause it would make them even MORE efficient.

With that said, you only should have been focusing on the NIN. Make the WHM Haste the DRG, since they were obviously incompetant, and take the Tank's fate into your own hands. Maybe unless you already have, try utilizing my Refreshing technique that I follow via the clock. I only lose like about 3 ticks, but the tradeoff is that I never lose track, and the mages never have a chance to bitch at me since Refresh is constantly up.

I also hate seeing Protect wear off of a melee/tank, knowing that they stupidly cancelled it themselves. Nothing you can do in that situation except patch some boo-boos, but it needs to be done, lol. Think of Melee's as toddlers, it'll save you a lot of frustration. They like thier toys, they wail away, and they whine and cry when they get hurt/don't get their way.

BLMs and WHMs are like teenagers. They have a lot of angst, like to THINK they're independant, but they ultimately still depend on us for their allowances so that they can still operate. We are the responsible adults that give them some loose rope, but have the power to reel them in. Tell the BLM he won't be getting Refreshed for 3-4 cycles and they'll bitch. When they don't GET that Refresh, they'll straighten up.

BRDs are the young adults, I mean, they have a lot of responsibilities, but sometimes they only got there by burning through levels and picking/choosing their parties. RDMs are the adults of the battlefield, having the ability to do a bit of everything and dispensing what needs to be done when it needs to be done.

Just like in RL, there are adults that are retarded, so it goes both ways. I've seen the good and bad of all jobs, and you just need to realize how to talk to people and work with them. FFXI is a good game to prepare for the real world market place, I should say. Anyway, moving on. . .

And AS adults, we have to understand the makeup of the families we are thrust into contact with, lol.

Uhm, I think I covered everything. I kept losing my train of thought, sry bout that if it's a bit tough to follow. >.>

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