This is why you don't melee ...

[Dragonsword]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

Melee, besides gives the mob TP, does distract Rdm from timing the refresh cycle as well as buffs to party members. The game is designed in such a way that we have a role in party and it is because of that essential role, we are invited. For rdm, its their refresh and other buffing and debuffing abilities.

Hero play like this one will cause many deaths and besides. Many ppl's time and xp are lost due to one player who forgot his essential roles.

I would emphasis on maintaining priorities and upkeeping the necessities for the best interest and success of the party, and will refrain from saying Rdm should not melee in any circumstances, well, of course we need to - in skill up party ^^)b.

[little ninja]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

Not justifying meleeing, but I don't see where your reasoning for the "don't melee" thing is. It isn't like you actually have to control each swing. You turn on auto attack and then you can cast like normal, just like Paladins and Dark Knights do all the time. The post just shows he was a bad player because he did not cast.

what i think the OP was saying is if you cant keep up with the simple task of refreshing mages, back up healer/stunner. then honestly meleeing should be the furthest thing from your mind.

blink tanking them sucks, but its worse when you dont have mages doing a simple stun to the mob. agaIII = a whole alliance of players in the yellow or lower. an what all because a rdm wasnt able to pay attention to his timers, or /pt chat begging for it.

[Jei]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

After years and years playing Rdm I just got too lazy to melee in exp PT and tough battles. I'm sure I can do the Rdm's jobs while swinging my sword. But meleeing requires lot of work and concentration (if you still want to buff/debuff/refresh/MP manage efficiently that is). And the extra damage isn't worth the effort. Strong PT, our melee almost add nothing. Weak PT, our melee won't change a thing.

When stun is our priority, we can't really refresh. refresh takes time to cast, enough for mobs to finish their ga spells. in missions especially PoM when ever we need Rdm/Drk for stun, other MP users will have to take care of themselves with drinks.

[qaitakalnin]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

i think the gist of this is to say that if you cant handle melee and the other important factors that you were hired to do for this alliance (i.e. refresh and stun) then yes most definitly you should not be meleeing anything. Stick to what you can do and practice doing more on your own time not others, especially something like this.

[Weeeekujata]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

/recast Stun

/recast is one of the greatest tool. please use it, than you can do your refresh, haste enfeebles whatever you wish. other than almathia, I have not seen a mob that spams another spell RIGHT after a stun(which I have time to enfeeble refresh etc). And ya almathia stuns holy like no tommorow n_n

[UnnamedGalka]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

Hey now...I'm sure his 5 points of damage per poke plus 7 points of additional En- damage contributed far more to the battle than Refreshing any of you silly stunners and healers would have.

Flare? Firaga III? Pfft...toughen up and let the man enjoy his new fugly hat!

[Aeni]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

Not justifying meleeing, but I don't see where your reasoning for the "don't melee" thing is. It isn't like you actually have to control each swing. You turn on auto attack and then you can cast like normal, just like Paladins and Dark Knights do all the time. The post just shows he was a bad player because he did not cast.

Read my entire thread title and the first line in the post.

I don't blame melee for a RDMs downfall. In fact, I encourage RDMs to melee if they'd want, when the time and place is right and have no qualms with a RDM in party doing it.

IF ...

If, however, the RDM is not doing his job, basic of basic jobs, outside of back up healing to WHMs and maybe adding in his/her personal touch to a skillchain with some MBs, then the RDM should NOT be meleeing. The simple fact of the matter is that you're doing more harm than contributing anything worthwhile to the alliance.

Let me clarify something so that everyone understands this. There were already 5 stunners on this trip. 2 DRKs and 3 BLMs. The RDM/DRK, before we left Jeuno, said he would come with DRK subbed. We told him he didn't have to, but since he was the last member to sign up on this expedition and we didn't want to hang around any longer in Jeuno, we told him ultimately it was his decision. We told him what the alliance makeup was on more than one occassion and even told him the total number of stunners available.

5 Stuns is more than sufficient against Hakutaku. Eventually, as the evening wore, a BLM left the alliance, leaving just me, 2 other BLMs and another DRK to to stun. 4 Stuns is still ideal at this point. However, when the BLM and myself are not getting refresh, then something is wrong. If both of us (BLM and myself) are healing and then we see the system message that Hakutaku is casting, there is this near instantaneous delay on everyone trying to figure out who's stun is up. We remedy this with Macro and a message after stunning, saying who's next. Well, it was either me or the BLM, since we're one after the other and of course, by the time we realize this and with all the lag in there, it was too late.

The RDM was put into our party for that reason alone. Not to stun (Although he could've stunned too if he wasn't busy doing whatever else he was doing) but to refresh, which he obviously failed at this. In another party, there was a BRD and he was doing a grand job of keeping people happy in that group. Wish I had him in ours -_-;;

[qaitakalnin]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

exactly, do what you are asked to do first, then *if* you can do more do more, but not at the cost of the party.

[Caspian]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

without anyone bothering to explain what you should put in your stun macro

Seriously? He's lvl 74, does he really need to be told how to set up macro? He's a RDM, his macro creating skills should be among the best on the server, not only that, but he does have DRK at atleast lvl 37, meaning he knows its a viable sub for stunning. (I know Aeni posted the part about him volunteering to come as /DRK after you posted this, so I'll leave that part alone.) Aeni's last post does explain a lot of your questions, mainly b/c all of this was him volunteering, as if he knew exactly what was going on. If he is lvl 74 and doesn't know how to properly create a macro then he'd be best off by logging out and clicking the cancel account button, b/c its unlikely he's ever going to get it.

[Aeni]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

I forgot to say this in my last post, we also have handle the task of paralyzena to whm and pld sub whm if i did not remember wrongly. as pld is not much of a use in tanking haku, we ask them to sub whm for more mp and help to paralyzena tank etc.

Ehm ... I have to disagree with this claim. Paladins are not useless and as long as they are high enough in levels, they can properly tank Haku. The only reason why NINs can tank them better at lower levels is because of their ability to throw up gil shields-I mean cast that awesome blink spell known as utsusemi.

When you come down right to it, though, a NIN has the least tools to tank properly even with a WAR sub. Their 2 hour is nothing more than a glorified get out of jail free card (avoiding exp penalty in death) and more often than not is used to give them free warps back to their HP when they are LFP and farming in some remote area like Pso'jxa.

This means that the BLMs have to practice restraint. Stun gives some uber hate (ask any DRK about this) and especially immediately following some massive barrage of nukes on Haku. A NIN tank with proper SATA could hold hate, but most of the melee is done with burst damages from SAMs, DRKs and WARs and SATA won't work properly unless you're behind another tank that is aligned directly across from the main tank. Loss of built up hate (almost an erasing) by transferring hate from tank to tank makes for less efficiency as the fights drag longer while BLMs have to hold back. With PLD tanks, however, once hate is transferred thru SATA, it can be held with several JAs and a flash and cement Haku through 1,000 pts of damage from intense nuking from each BLM. Thus, fights tend to last shorter and PLDs can endure paralysis a tad bit longer than a NIN can, since a NIN without their gil shields - I mean utsusemi - is nothing more than a cardboard tank (3-4 hits and a NIN is usually face down from Haku when a PLD only lost about 1/3 of his total HP)

[Karinya]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

[Another detailed response omitted, since clearly nobody on this thread cares about facts, they just want to slam RDMs.]

Really, I think the main problem here is someone thought that if they have a cluster, they are entitled to a hat, neglecting the little matter of the HNM fight. HNMs are dangerous, even to well prepared and skilled groups. Nobody wins 100% of their fights, particularly groups that haven't fought that HNM much yet. There's no need for finger-pointing - Hakutaku is a bastard and sometimes he kills people. I lost 99 KS recently in a failed Horns of War (we ran out of time at <5%); am I going to jump around blaming people and criticizing the playstyle of jobs I don't even play? No. Quit whining and get another cluster. If you don't want to bring that RDM next time, don't. But leave the blame where it belongs, on Hakutaku.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

Yes while NM's are dangerous, people still do make mistakes. This rdm OBVIOUSLY did. Regardless of whether he melee'd or not, he did not do his job. His main job was to REFRESH. If mages don't get refresh then they can't heal and stun. I would have to say that this was a HUGE problem with this fight which means it could have been avoided. If he had not melee'd, would he still have kept refresh going? No one knows but it is safe to say he did NOT do his job.

[Aeni]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

[Another detailed response omitted, since clearly nobody on this thread cares about facts, they just want to slam RDMs.]

Really, I think the main problem here is someone thought that if they have a cluster, they are entitled to a hat, neglecting the little matter of the HNM fight. HNMs are dangerous, even to well prepared and skilled groups. Nobody wins 100% of their fights, particularly groups that haven't fought that HNM much yet. There's no need for finger-pointing - Hakutaku is a bastard and sometimes he kills people. I lost 99 KS recently in a failed Horns of War (we ran out of time at <5%); am I going to jump around blaming people and criticizing the playstyle of jobs I don't even play? No. Quit whining and get another cluster. If you don't want to bring that RDM next time, don't. But leave the blame where it belongs, on Hakutaku.

First of all, I have no idea what you're talking about, because you're making ZERO sense in any of your responses so far. Again, you're defensive because you're a RDM and bottom line, any talk involving a RDM, regardless of whether or not the talk was justified, is an insult to you. Why do you need to feel defensive about this? Is it because you're insecure about yourself and how you play your job class? Maybe because the criticism levied on this one player seems to be a mirror reflection of yourself? Really now ...

First of all, no one lost any cluster on this set of runs. I point out the danger, however, of a cluster potentially being lost if someone fails to do their job. Note that we had enough exceptional players to pick up on his slack, but this situation was not limited to just one run. Over the course of six runs (Yes, SIX) this behavior was repeated and, after the RDM got his O Hat, perpetuated to the point where it was abusive behavior.

This post you made seems to be directed at me, in particular. You're trying to lecture to me about HNM fights? Hah. That's funny. Yet in several posts before, you've contradicted yourself or made erroneous assumptions about how these kinds of fights are suppose to be handled. I've seen, with my own eyes, how an exceptional group CAN ALWAYS win, with or without mistakes being made. I don't know why you bring up an example like KS99, since we're talking pears and grapes here (Time limit on one and no time limit on the other) Let me add that Hakutaku has been taken with as little as 8 players before and I've known this firsthand (But I was not in that alliance) Although the battle was quite long, it was still won.

[Zempten]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

I personally think as a player we should have played all the jobs to get a feel for it. One of the things that I've known so far is "Knowledge about playing the job and actually playing it is very different".

(No idea where that fits in this post, lol)

[eriiko]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

You shouldn't have blocked his name. He is a bad player & everyone should know.
I don't care if you just got Lv75, a player should know when & when not to do things as melee. Although he isn't on my server, so it doesn't matter much to me. It bothers me nonetheless.
There is one RDM, on Ramuh who started his -bot- in my PT. I talk about in in /say when I see him in Jeuno.

Also, why didn't you tell him to stop meleeing before he got his hat? Did he get his hat first?