This is why you don't melee ...

[WishMaster3K]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

Let me state that quite often Aeni and I have differentiating opinions. And while I greatly dislike you, you rat-bastard, I appreciate the fact that I can argue about things that can be seen as menial

Moving on, Aeni had some good points, but they seem to have been responded to out of context. I'm a RDM, and I meleed on Genbu. . .


Enough to drop out my 300% Spirits Within and be moved out of the melee pt and back into tank PT for refresh.

IMO, that's the only useful thing us RDMs can do on HNMs and Sky in terms of melee damage, SW. No excuse for meleeing in those situations. We have a very important role, because if the mages are low on MP, it's usually my objective to tell them to rest while I refresh them and cure bomb the tanks. By the time I dwindle through my MP, the mages are at least all back at 300MP, meaning that we survived that much longer, allowing us to turn a Chainspell-Firaga3 into a win.

I melees on Genbu with a Sole Sushi, my results were 0 damage + 2 Enthunder. Miss Miss. 0 damage+2 enthunder.

I decided that healing and nuking on MBs from the back line would be more beneficial than being more Waterage3 Fodder.

Stop defending this situation ppl, argue about exp, or solo melee, but not HNM. . . Us RDMs are not invited to melee in these instances.

He was RDM/DRK, no one expected him to Stun, because RED MAGES ARE EXPECTED TO REFRESH. I don't get invited because ppl are like "Hey Ren, don't worry, we have a RDM already, so you're free to melee." No, I still have buffs, nukes and cures to throw out, in addition to paralyna, which saves ass on Byakko when the WHMs cant get it off cause they too are paralyzed.

Christ, wth is wrong with you ppl trying to find an excuse and say that "It was ok, but he didnt do his job." It's not ok, cause he DIDNT do his job, and no matter how well you refresh, RDMs are always more beneficial to the pt they are in, and the alliance as a whole, if they stay the fuck back.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

Christ, wth is wrong with you ppl trying to find an excuse and say that "It was ok, but he didnt do his job." It's not ok, cause he DIDNT do his job, and no matter how well you refresh, RDMs are always more beneficial to the pt they are in, and the alliance as a whole, if they stay the fuck back.

Can I get an AMEN!?

[bikkebakke]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

Can I get an AMEN!?

AMEN!!!

[Karinya]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

RDMs are always more beneficial to the pt they are in, and the alliance as a whole, if they stay the fuck back.

You know, I pretty much expect this kind of stupid overgeneralization from some people now - hell, most people. But a 74 RDM should *#&%^ KNOW BETTER.

He didn't do his job for reasons COMPLETELY UNRELATED to whether or not he was meleeing. Different situations call for different tactics and in that situation, meleeing DIDN'T MATTER to what happened. Blaming it is stupid and pointless and fails to address the real problems in the original post.

If you want a real example of why you don't melee, why don't you bring up something where it really does matter, like Sewer Syrup, Faust, the Ollas, the Retribution WSNM, Alastor Antlion... There are plenty of fights where RDM meleeing really is stupid and dangerous, but Hakutaku just isn't one of them, and wanting it to be so won't make it so. And that's why you shouldn't use words like "always" without thinking about them.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

Haku is a marathon fight. He's easy, but if you slip, that's the entire alliance. As you said, there is a time and a place for many things, and meleeing on anything requiring a friggin alliance is uncalled for. Maybe his meleeing didnt hurt his skill, maybe it did, point is, even if he landed all his shit, he'd have been 10 times more useful not meleeing. That's the point and you missed it.

I throw up Barwatera when we fight genbu, I never draw hate, I never get hit, Genbu is fairly painless. But if I decided to instead chill in the grass with the mages, I'm exponentially more useful. Cures, buffs, nuking on MB, being able to get full benefit of my abilities by using staves and my full stat gear and not having on my Acc+ gear makes things easier on everyone in the pt.

Being a Red Mage, hell, being in an alliance means you're a part of a greater whole, and no one person can funtion better than the other, and everyone has their role and so forth. Genbu can be done with 8 ppl, 1 tank and 2 WHMs, as long as there is team work. Just like how 8 ppl can defeat Genbu, an entire alliance can fail if things go wrong and the tanks die and there is pandemonium.

When Byakko hit his Paralyze move, you can bet your ass I was Paralyning my mages and my tanks cause they were too paralyzed to get it off. When Chainspell Firaga 3 hit I chainspelled Cure4 and took a death for the team, so that the tanks could live on and save the rest of the alliance. Being in the backrow better prepares you for these situations.

No defense for being a bad Red Mage. That guy sucked whether or not he helped or not.

If he wanted to melee, he could have waited till event was over and took out one of the nearby adds.

A sucky RDM is a sucky RDM whether they melee or not. This one decided to suck standing up. There is a lot of things you miss when you have chatlog melee spam, in additino to your own, and you have not a million things to do, like normal RDMs, but now a kagillion.

With all your accomplishments, you should *#&%^ KNOW BETTER.

[Aeni]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

He didn't do his job for reasons COMPLETELY UNRELATED to whether or not he was meleeing. Different situations call for different tactics and in that situation, meleeing DIDN'T MATTER to what happened. Blaming it is stupid and pointless and fails to address the real problems in the original post.

What real problems are you trying to find, Karinya? Basically, all I said was, "If you can't handle the basic of all basic roles that your job class is known for and expected to deliver, you have no business doing something that your job class is definitely not well regarded for."

Note, that's not word for word, but I felt the need to spell it out for readers such as yourself, who seem to have issues with how things that aren't spelt out and assume that such a post can render a thread detrimental to the forum community.



When I see a RDM, do I think:

(a) omfg - OMFG - awesome melee DD! We gotta pick up this l33t dudezz omfg oh sh*t sh*t sh*t I'm cumming in my pants.

(b) Refresh whore. We need to keep our mages happy. Throw an invite to him/her.

Now, Karinya, answer this question. When your HNM LS leader looks at you, does he/she see you as (a) or (b)?

After answering that, if you answered (b), you should know better about priorities. Prioritizing can make or break your reputation. Because, afterall, there's only so much to learn about one job class that has not seen any improvements outside of equipment and weapon in the past three years. With that taken into account, what really makes a RDM stand out from all the millions of other RDMs in this game is not whether or not that player know how to cast "refresh" or swing their weapon on a monster. It's all the other things that make each individual unique and mastering these abilities is what can make you a good RDM or a bad one.

If you answered (a) ... I pray to your (object of worship) that your situation is unique and not something of the norm across all servers. -_-;;

[TheGrandMom]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

I'm lvling my 4th rdm because I love the job so much. When I first started lvling rdm, I took the melee route. I stood up for my meleeing when people would put me down. I said I was doing just as good a job as if I didn't melee. I was downright adamant about it! If you didn't like me meleeing well tough s**t!

On my 2nd rdm, I had to learn to stand back on occasion. Oooooo I did NOT like it one bit! If I could get away with it I would stand back until the end of the fight and then run up and get a few whacks in! I was going to show them!! There was something bothering me a little though. But my bullheaded ways wouldn't let me acknowledge what was bothering me.

Then on my 3rd rdm, I found myself in the back quite a bit. I was irritated by it but as time wore on I came to acknowledge what I would not acknowledge before........I was more of a benefit if I stayed in the back row. God that was a bitter pill to swallow let me tell you. I knew after I accepted that fact, I would never be able to melee in an exp pt again. So in disgust I stopped playing rdm.

Now I'm on my 4th rdm. I have accepted I'm in the back row. In fact, I have embraced it. I am a damn good rdm too. I know one thing for ABSOLUTE CERTAIN, you ARE a better rdm if you stand back. Meleeing DOES interfere with your concentration. You WILL be slower to react overall if you melee. And this DOES affect the efficiency of your pt. Those ARE the facts. Like it or not, its the truth.

So was this rdms duties affected by his meleeing? You damn right they were. He lost his focus on what he was there to do. He focused on meleeing and didn't meet the requirements of his job. He was wrong.......plain and simple. Those are also the facts.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

Those are also the facts.

She's got 3 generations on us all. . . I can't argue with logic ;.;

Although my grandmother says some outta control things. That's totally unrelated, but anyway.

If the RDM wanted to deal damage, he has Fire3, Aero3, Blizzard3 and Thunder3 to choose from.

He'll do more damage in 10 seconds with those spells than he could ever do meleeing the entire fight.

Fear the Red Mage who has no need to draw his sword. . .

[Johnny]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster3k
Fear the Red Mage who has no need to draw his sword. . .


Haha, I like that one...and it's so, so true.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

Fighting pots, RDM-type mobs, shows strong evidence of this. If i tried meleeing another RDM in Ballista, it'd take all day ._.

I have yet to try it, tho. I'm sure I'd have assloads of fun I'm gonna merit sword and Eva and Critical >.>;;;

[Johnny]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

Fighting pots, RDM-type mobs, shows strong evidence of this. If i tried meleeing another RDM in Ballista, it'd take all day ._.

I have yet to try it, tho. I'm sure I'd have assloads of fun I'm gonna merit sword and Eva and Critical >.>;;;

Hmm, RDM vs. RDM Ballista...this idea might just have the potential for an incredible amount of fun...I can't even imagine the amount of trash talking that would go on during an event like this...not to mention the humor behind watching 2 RDM swing away at each other, simultaneously silencing each other, using an echo drop, and doing it again...count me in

As for those RDM (excluding the lower levels) who disagree with WishMaster3Ks quote above, and think that RDM can melee in any situation, try meleeing Maat. (To stop those who will undoubtedly flame this remark, I'm not saying that all RDM who melee believe they should do so in every situation. I'm also not talking about at 75 with merits, because then I plan on trying it with Joyeuse. I just don't feel he was sufficiently put in his place the first time...)

[WishMaster3K]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

Grendal soloed Maat ._.

at lvl 75

Juffs buffs and debuffs like he was a regular EM mob. No nukes.

Grendal is my FFXI Jesus.

Of course, I'm not sure a lot of ppl could solo Maat w/o him busting Asuran, but Grendal is a Taru, so Idk. Joyeuse + Genbu Shield is fucking dangerous as shit >.> Man I love both those items.

[Karinya]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

What real problems are you trying to find, Karinya? Basically, all I said was, "If you can't handle the basic of all basic roles that your job class is known for and expected to deliver, you have no business doing something that your job class is definitely not well regarded for."

Well, I agree with *that* statement, but it's not what you said in the first place. You didn't say "This is why I had a party with a bad RDM". You said "This is why you don't melee" - which at least *appears* to be saying you = ALL RDMs, good, bad, and indifferent. (And without qualifications, it even implies "all the time.")

Maybe that's not what you meant. But it's what you said. If you're changing your mind now - if you recognize that most of the no-melee arguments only apply *if* the player can't keep up other responsibilities at the same time - great.

Meleeing many fights does not stop you from carrying out other responsibilities of the job. It doesn't even slow you down, if you know what you're doing and have the appropriate macro setup, etc.

When I see a RDM, do I think:

(a) omfg - OMFG - awesome melee DD! We gotta pick up this l33t dudezz omfg oh sh*t sh*t sh*t I'm cumming in my pants.

(b) Refresh whore. We need to keep our mages happy. Throw an invite to him/her.

Now, Karinya, answer this question. When your HNM LS leader looks at you, does he/she see you as (a) or (b)?

Neither, of course. Both my dynamis LS and sky LS leaders are RDM themselves (I'm lucky in that, I guess), and know that neither of those is anywhere close to an accurate and complete description of a RDM's capabilities. But even if they're not RDM themselves, LS leaders have a responsibility to know the capabilities of all 15 jobs - maybe not perfectly, but at least better than that kind of one-dimensional caricature.

Duh.

After answering that, if you answered (b), you should know better about priorities. Prioritizing can make or break your reputation. Because, afterall, there's only so much to learn about one job class that has not seen any improvements outside of equipment and weapon in the past three years. With that taken into account, what really makes a RDM stand out from all the millions of other RDMs in this game is not whether or not that player know how to cast "refresh" or swing their weapon on a monster. It's all the other things that make each individual unique and mastering these abilities is what can make you a good RDM or a bad one.

Absolutely. You haven't mastered a job until you can use ALL of its abilities to their best effectiveness in the situations where they are appropriate, and not use them in situations where they are inappropriate. RDM has more situationally-variable abilities than most jobs. Silence is either awesome or useless depending on what you cast it on and when; so is Dispel; so is Refresh. In some situations, *sitting down* is dangerous and must be avoided. That certainly doesn't mean that RDM should never sit down!

It's precisely because there are so many people saying that RDM should never melee, ever, that I feel there is a need to promote a moderate viewpoint: RDM should think about whether or not to melee, since it depends on the situation, the mob, the party, etc. It's pretty obvious when you want to Silence or Dispel, it's not quite so obvious when you want to melee and when not, but the general principles are the same - look at the situation, think about the costs and the benefits, then make a decision. Dogmas just get in the way.

In any case, problems that don't have anything to do with melee (but just involve a RDM in some way) shouldn't be taken as an excuse to push the no-melee viewpoint/agenda, which is exactly what this thread started out doing.

Is it *that* hard for some people to grasp a viewpoint that isn't one-dimensional absolutism one way or the other? What's up with this "I don't melee Byakko, I don't melee Suzaku" crap? Neither do I, for obvious and good reasons!

[WishMaster3K]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

Good points, I'll admit. but I'm a soft taru, and AOEs frighten me ._.

Nothing more to say at the moment except well played, Fencer, I shall parry and return the blow at a later venture.

[little ninja]

Re: This is why you don't melee ...

truth is i could care less if a rdm is meleeing with me or not. but the moment i or any of the other party members has to start calling for dispel, or refresh. then yeah obviously hes not performing to his jobs standard. an that is to debuff,buf an support cast. but i will aggree with the Op on this one. if any rdm regardless if its a regular pt, an alliance. a god for or a hnm. if they can not keep ahead of the dispels, stuns refreshs, or back up heals. then yeah that will label that RDM a crappy one.

we would never label a pld great, even though he lost hate the entire fight, an refused to cure himself, now would we? wed never label a nin a great tank if he never casted blink, would we ??? can we label a whm great even though everyone in the party always died, an they had full mp, could we??? the answer is No, so why do you consider this rdm to bew any good.