weapon of choice for RDM

[Icemage]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

Then explain this .... if players knew about this, what would be so great about having RNGs in PT? One would assume (pre-patch) that with dual wielding, low delay (for faster TP gains) and xbow spamming RNGs (two or three in a PT) the monster would be "penta" spamming it's JA/WS every 3 seconds. However, that was rarely the case and I've been in 2x RNG PTs before and did not notice this difference.

Non-NM Monsters do not immediately use their TP when they have 100%+ until they hit 25% of their max HP or below. Until then, it's only "occasionally" checked - 25% by my recollection, but I may be misremembering the exact proportion.

I think this is a bunch of crockery as there is a big difference between whether or not a monster gains TP any more or faster and whether or not the monster will use the TP, once it has enough to use it.

I think you should go do your homework and sufficiently research the topics under discussion before you start spouting opinions based on personal experience. The monster TP gain formulas are well known and well documented, as are the conditions under which the TP is or is not used.

Also, since you said something about magic spells that do damage giving TP as well, then this will include enfeebling spells, since spells like Dia, Bio and BLM's frost, etc. spells cause dmg, noticeably dmg initially and then over time. You think by your logic, mages shouldn't even cast at all, period, as they risk giving monster a lot of TP ... again, this is all phoey and I seem to think whoever devised this kind of argument did so on the basis that he/she was biased in his/her opinions and was grasping for straws trying to explain his/her biasness to others.

Go. Do. Your. Research. Before. You. Spew. Worthless. Garbage.

Any offensive magic spell that shows damage in the damage in the log above 0 will give 10TP to monsters. I use this when testing damage formulas on Cactuars in Western Altepa Desert - I spam Dia 10 times and give them enough TP to activate a WS. Works every single time - they don't get any TP from hitting me since I have Stoneskin up.

Dia that does 0 will not give TP. Frost, Burn, Poison II and such spells that do not show damage in the log also do not give TP. The 10 TP given triggers specifically when you throw a spell that deals at least 1 damage.

You think I'd risk taking 1000 damage out of the blue without some idea of how this works?


Icemage

[Taskmage]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

Where is information like this discussed and well documented? I was unaware that mob tp gain had been conclusively proven, much less that the exact rates had been determined.

So then a rdm/nin with Rajas Ring and Hornetneedle would only give a mob 2 TP per hit ... If only there was an attainable item we could wear for an extra +2 Subtle Blow, Atseva could cut the time on his dragon fights in half.

Has anyone tested whether the job trait Subtle Blow gets more effective at higher levels?

[Armando]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

So then a rdm/nin with Rajas Ring and Hornetneedle would only give a mob 2 TP per hit ... If only there was an attainable item we could wear for an extra +2 Subtle Blow, Atseva could cut the time on his dragon fights in half.

I don't think Subtle Blow +X works as a direct subtraction. Look at SAM, SAM can easily get Store TP +20 in endgame. They don't get 20 more TP per hit, they get 20% more TP per hit. Subtle Blow is like the cousin trait of Store TP; I would assume that equipment that adds it also works by percentages. If you want to give the mob 0 TP you have to hit for 0 and let enspells do all the work.

Icemage, I have just one question: How much TP do mobs gain when they hit you?

[Karinya]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

Then explain this .... if players knew about this, what would be so great about having RNGs in PT? One would assume (pre-patch) that with dual wielding, low delay (for faster TP gains) and xbow spamming RNGs (two or three in a PT) the monster would be "penta" spamming it's JA/WS every 3 seconds. However, that was rarely the case and I've been in 2x RNG PTs before and did not notice this difference.

You haven't done much tanking, have you? I've noticed exactly this difference. Barrage hits, bam, there's a WS coming right back at -- me. (Not just counting the times the barrage drops it under 20%, either. And the 20% effect is DEFINITELY real, I've countered many specials with sentinel or flash by knowing in advance that they were coming as soon as monster hp hit 20%.)

Monster TP gain is not an illusion, and RNG definitely ARE dangerous in exactly that way. Maybe you didn't notice, but I'll bet your tank and healer did.

That being said, anyone over level 50 is probably overestimating the downside of RDM melee at the OP's level. Especially the other high level RDMs - it's been months or even years since they played RDM at that level. RDM's damage per hit is not that far below that of real DDs yet - lack of accuracy and time spent casting/resting taking away from time to swing limit RDM damage, but those things don't give TP to mobs either.


Keep the important enfeebles on (which ones are important depends on mob, but usually para/slow/blind, sometimes grav, dia or bio, poison. Silence is either crucial or useless, depending on mob.) Magic burst when there's a skillchain. Heal people that need it (when fighting mandies, remember that cure spells also cure sleep). Rest when you need MP. Don't worry about losing TP. Low level WS are weak anyway, and a RDM's even weaker than most. MP are much more valuable than TP for pretty much any job that has both, except DRK at high levels.

If you can keep up with that, you're doing fine for your level (and your party will be better off for your presence - RDM are sometimes underappreciated at this level, but it really does make a difference). Melee or don't melee just isn't a big issue. It might help your party kill things a bit faster - but only if it doesn't distract you from something more important.

Double Post Edited:

Thing is, BLMs can easily outdamage a two-handed weapon swing while giving it less TP. And yeah, I do agree it's generally a non-issue. I'm not gonna invite people based on how much/little TP they give to the mob. However, there's still no reason for the RDM to feed 9 TP to the mob for very weak damage when he could've been nuking for far better damage and giving it 10 TP.

You haven't seen non-burst RDM nukes at level 26 lately, have you. Blizzard for 40 is about typical - on a mob weak to ice. And with no dark staff, no clear mind, etc., it will take ~45 sec to get that 30 MP back. Assuming you don't need to do anything else in that 45 sec and break your rest... A melee RDM could double that damage easily in the time it takes the nuker RDM to get his MP back, even without an en spell. High level RDM can nuke for 500 even outside MB. Low level RDM can't.

There's also no reason for the RDM to feed it 9 TP per swing for little damage when he could've been kneeling for MP and putting it to much better use (backup cures, nuking, or simply making MP for the next mob.) And there's no reason for the RDM to feed the monster 9 TP per swing for little damage when the mob is below 30% and using TP moves every 10-20 seconds I just can't find a good reason why a RDM would want to melee in an EXP party.

Backup cures or mp for the next mob aren't always that important, especially at low levels. The party may have cures covered already (especially against mandies). The area may be so crowded, or the party camped so far from mob spawn areas, that everyone will probably be rested to full before you can find another mob and bring it back to camp. RDM TP feeding is often scapegoated, but almost never significant compared to the tank and 2-3 melees swinging 100% of the time. (If avoiding TP feeding from weak hits is so important, why aren't people booted from groups for using sushi instead of str/atk food? Especially at low levels when you don't really need more accuracy anyway?)

Low level RDM nuking is much *worse* than low level RDM melee. If you like B sword and dagger skill, you'll love C elemental magic! (No staves, no moldavite earring, no +skill gear at this level - not even the absurdly expensive ENM earrings.) RDM aren't a strong damage dealer, ever, at any level - and they don't need to be to be useful to a party - but at low levels, if they DO want to contribute some damage above MBs+poison+bio/dia, melee (with an en-spell if possible) is their best option.

[Aeni]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

Go. Do. Your. Research. Before. You. Spew. Worthless. Garbage.

What documentation that has been proven as fact exists? There is none. Try again. This time, with a clear response and one void of "elitism" in your near dependance on some knowledge where its existence has mystified me.

You haven't done much tanking, have you? I've noticed exactly this difference. Barrage hits, bam, there's a WS coming right back at -- me. (Not just counting the times the barrage drops it under 20%, either. And the 20% effect is DEFINITELY real, I've countered many specials with sentinel or flash by knowing in advance that they were coming as soon as monster hp hit 20%.)

Barrage hits and no ... not conclusive enough. I melee and I am standing next to the tank with no filters on. Try again. RNGs I've partied with used to Barrage pull for the helluva it (PLD kept bragging how he can get that hate to him even with that) and I never saw any of those mobs pull any move. When fighting weapons, I've seen 3 or 4 JAs/WSs at 80% but several times I didn't see any JA/WS move pull off below 20%. These are my own experiences and that is shared with others.

Thing is, BLMs can easily outdamage a two-handed weapon swing while giving it less TP. And yeah, I do agree it's generally a non-issue. I'm not gonna invite people based on how much/little TP they give to the mob. However, there's still no reason for the RDM to feed 9 TP to the mob for very weak damage when he could've been nuking for far better damage and giving it 10 TP. There's also no reason for the RDM to feed it 9 TP per swing for little damage when he could've been kneeling for MP and putting it to much better use (backup cures, nuking, or simply making MP for the next mob.) And there's no reason for the RDM to feed the monster 9 TP per swing for little damage when the mob is below 30% and using TP moves every 10-20 seconds I just can't find a good reason why a RDM would want to melee in an EXP party.

Sure, but in the same logic, why would I want a THF/NIN in my party either? Why would I need this player to constantly feed the monster TP that I don't need him to be using? What good is a THF/NIN then in the role of a melee? Also, many THFs I know will whip out their xbow, consumed with a need to out-TP even the mob himself. Again, where is this secret formula out there to shun this kind of behavior that persists in the game? Why isn't people calling this to attention, the very same people supposedly god-like in their intuitiveness to know just exactly how this game work should also be the very ones to dictate some community policy on how we all should play the game.

There is no secret formula. Again, read my words: There is no secret formula to this game. There is no Grand Unified Theory of which all the mysteries in this game gets shed to light. SE crafted this game with monsters that have a fair bit of AI in them and I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't use a simple equation to drive this AI. None of the FF games previous to this and those that will come later have a secret formula either. Many of you are just delusional and one or two consistency check is meaningless unless you do it to 100% of monsters and beastmen in the game with the exact same tests you run ...

[Armando]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

Aeni, regardless of how mobs get TP, if you've soloed ANY mob, you'd know that they do use their TP moves immediately once their HP gets lower than 30/25%. And a THF will at least do big skillchain damage. I have soloed many mobs, at around 35-40% I'll Flash, use a WS to take them down to below 30%, and it'll use its TP move without fail if it hadn't used it not too long before that. It's also not hard to tell that when the mob is dying it starts spamming its TP moves. Regardless of wether Icemage is correct or incorrect regarding how the mob gains TP, you can't tell me you haven't noticed this?

Karinya... Blizzard for 40 is a bit *too* low, don't you think? I got 70 (soft cap) pretty consistently as an Elvaan BLM in the dunes. Surely the INT gap between BLM and RDM isn't that big? They both have Magic Attack Bonus at this point. Getting enough INT to not get resists isn't that hard...Mandies are weak to 5/8 elements, you'd have to be casting Stone/Water/Banish/Dia to be getting consistent resists on them. And it'd only take the RDM 30 seconds to get that 30 MP if he's eating cookies. 12 base MP +5 from Ginger Cookies, and you're up to 17 MP recovered on the first tick of healing, which takes 20 seconds, then he'd get 18 on the following ten seconds for a total of 35. If he has a Pilgrim Wand he'd get 39 MP by the 30th second. If he's using simple juices (don't count this out completely...as a PLD I used Pinapple juice literally nonstop for 2-3 hours in my parties. It can be done, maybe not to such a great extenct as I did, but you can) the RDM can get 10 more MP in those 30 seconds (assuming Pineapple because of its cost-effectiveness.)

On the other hand, in those 30 seconds the RDM has around 7 chances to swing, but he'll only have roughly 65% accuracy like most melee will do on most mobs (worse, Mandies are MNKs, they have better evasion, plus the chance to guard.) Basically the RDM is only going to get in around 5 of those hits at best, and unless he's eating meat dishes and has STR gear on him, he's barely gonna do over 20 damage in a single swing, much more likely around 10. A guard from the mandy can easily make a hit go near 0. Plus, this is assuming the RDM doesn't need to do any casting to interrupt his attack cycle. Not only that but in 5 swings he'd give the mob a lot more TP than a single blizzard spell will. And while the party may not need more backup cures, or more MP for the next mob, it doesn't hurt, does it? That extra MP can carry you to a higher chain. Freak accidents can happen, too...sometimes you just need the MP.

Oh and Aeni, people don't kick sushi-eaters out of sheer ignorance. Most people don't know enough about how stats affect meleeing to make sound choices. People still go "if you have a two-handed weapon your accuracy is lower so you need more acc." Even if you did kick them it wouldn't do you any good, it's spread like the plague, EVERYONE uses sushi by default now. I consider myself lucky when I find someone that still uses meat dishes.

[Icemage]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

For those who have been too lazy to take advice and go test themselves, here's some references by Apple Pie (JP player who used to post here quite often, who had access to all the JP strategy guides as well as kept up with all FFXI strategy/research forums):

Regarding TP accumulation by enemies:
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/sho...8&page=3&pp=23

The video is no longer hosted but I assure you it showed the amounts correctly:

These are what we have as our common sense.

1) We gain 5% TP when we are damaged by elemental spells while they gain 10% TP.

Note: When we get 0 damage, we don't gain any TP. Neither do they.

2a) When their HP is > 20%
They randomly use their WS when their TP >= 100%.

2b) Whe their HP is =< 20%
They use their WS whenever they store 100% TP.

3) How they gain their TP from our physical attacks?

[TP(%) given] = [TP(%) we acquire] + 3%

Note: Damage > 0

For example, if I get 6% TP with my sword, they get 9% TP from my attack

Quote:
Does any spell cause TP gain, or is it only area-of-effect spells?


Any "elemental" spells inflicting damage (>0). As for Burn, Choke and others inflicting slip damage, they don't seem to do that.

Then, I remember both Bio and Dia does that, too but this is only when they inflict 1 or higher direct damage (not slip one) on them.

I actually *have* tested this personally, and can confirm that these values are correct. As mentioned earlier in this thread, it's how I can do stuff like test damage resistance and Stoneskin, by controlling how often a Cactuar can accumulate the TP to use 1000 Needles:

Damage resistance test:
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49758

Stoneskin test:
http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46585

---

The effect of Subtle Blow is less well documented, as I believe it was tweaked at some point. Nevertheless, all you have to do is go ask any level 75 Ninja who has the Rajas Ring and I'm sure they'll confirm that it significantly reduces the number of TP attacks from enemies when they solo, since they already give so little TP to begin with from multiple Subtle Blow traits (thieves with lots of Subtle Blow can also attest to this).

---

I don't know what formula is used to calculate monster TP gain when they hit us. It doesn't have anything to do with the TP we get when hit, unfortunately. Again, though, ask your friendly local Beastmaster to Charm an enemy after it hits you and check its <pettp> and you'll have your answer.


Icemage

[Armando]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

For the sake of the TP discussion, I just had a little fun in Sauromugue as PLD/BST with a beetle. It got 6 TP and occasionally 7 TP when hitting someone, be it me or another mob. It seems they gain TP from their normal hits just like us (most mobs hit every 4 secs, the average sword falls just under 4 secs and will typically get 6 TP, sometimes 7 because of the hidden decimals.) Interestingly enough though, mobs will only get 2 TP when struck if it's your pet at the time it was hit.

EDIT: It didn't occur to me until after I posted, but...I logged back on to test Icemage's facts. After hitting a beetle with a Centurion's Sword, it got 9 TP. After casting Banish on a separate beetle, it got 10 TP. That falls in line with what Icemage has been saying.

[Icemage]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

EDIT: It didn't occur to me until after I posted, but...I logged back on to test Icemage's facts. After hitting a beetle with a Centurion's Sword, it got 9 TP. After casting Banish on a separate beetle, it got 10 TP. That falls in line with what Icemage has been saying.

Thank you, Armando. As I said, it is *easily* tested by anyone wishing to verify.


Icemage

[Hyrist]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

The difficulty I see here is this really:

Where do you draw the line?

Its been verified that enspells and addional effects on any weapon do not add to the TP gain of any verifiyable mob.

So where do we draw the line in where the MTP (Monster TP) gain is not worth the amount of damage inflicted?

A normal sword blow agianst a mob, in the hands of a 26 elvaan rdm (mage gear /blm sub, mage food) hits for approximatly 15-18, pluss enspell(averge 6), on average. The average dagger at that range averages around 10-15.

A double strike (One dual weilded swing) with daggers, provided both hit will land (based off high average) around 30 damage for 13 TP gained [(5+3)x2] Where as a sword on high average deals approximatly 24 damage for 9 TP.

Both of these averages are variable up or down depending on the cercumstances. However the damage per TP ratio, point to the RDM being more effective, up intill the point the dagger user (in this case a thf or a rnger) throw a sneak attack or a WS (I'll note that the WS off a ranger is ranged attack, employing a differnt weapon to compare with)

On the same key, the use of a magic bursted weapon skill can provide up to more than 50% tp to the mob in a matter of seconds, however it is a preferred way to deal even more addional damage.


While it can be justified, the TP gain issue is often a double standard. People will insult a Red Mage who chooses to melee for a couple more levels, but easially accept a thf/nin for Dual Weild daggers and Shadows, while it still remains that /mnk with Hand to hand is still the superior damage dealer at these levels.

I usually end up disregarding it, for me anything up to level 30 is a noobish exploration area anyways.

[Armando]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

Dual weild doesn't matter much. The haste gain is minimal so you're still swinging almost twice as slowly - in all, Dual Weild I just gives you off-hand bonuses and slightly improves WS. NIN sub also gives THFs Subtle Blow, so no loss there. I've already thrown out the TP argument out the window because most people simply won't care. I'm not going to make any definite claims because my RDM is level 1...however, can you really say you can do more damage meleeing than nuking? Hyrist, what kind of mob are you talking about when you say a RDM can hit for 15-18? That sounds like an EM mob. An IT mob will check High Defense to a RDM eating typical mage foods, using typical mage equipment. That being said, the RDM's average damage per swing will be lower than his weapon's DMG. Longsword only has 16 DMG, Gladius has 17. So vs an IT mob, the RDM is more likely to do 10-15 melee damage per swing are more reasonable numbers. On the typical IT mob, most melee will experience a 60-65% average accuracy. Mandragora are MNK types and have 3 more evasion than other IT mobs, and the RDM will have 4 less accuracy than other melees because of his/her B combat skills. I can't really comment on en-spells vs IT mobs...on one hand they can be resisted, on the other hand, the mandy should be weak to them, so I don't know if you can get a full 6 damage out of it. I ask you honestly, because I don't have any first-hand experience: do you think the RDM could do more damage meleeing with that kind of accuracy and damage, than nuking Blizzard? Nuking is always more consistent than meleeing because it almost invariably lands; worst-case scenario, it'll get resisted and the damage cut down. With cookies, it's reasonable to get 17 MP per tick of healing. And if the mob isn't high enough for the other mages to need more MP for chains, or more back-up healing, and the RDM can hit it comfortably with its B combat skills and afford to melee it, I think it's also safe to assume he won't be getting many resists on his Blizzards, and will be doing close to 70 damage each. Not to mention that the RDM doesn't have to stop and rest after every spell, a majority of the resting can be done in between fights, after the first tick it only takes 10 seconds to get nearly 20 MP, and should something go awry the MP that would've been used for nuking could be used for something else, as opposed to not healing MP at all and meleeing instead. If the mob is dying, magic is far more reliable to finish it off and won't give it as much TP, since at this point it'll be trying to spam TP moves. At 31 RDM gets Clear Mind, and at 30 the other DDs can get Berserk/Sneak Attack, which increases the gap between RDM's melee damage and real DDs, and makes resting for MP more favorable. Also keep in mind that the RDM won't be able to get TP consistently and even if he got 100 TP, his WS would be mediocre at best. All that taken into consideration, I still feel the RDM would be better off nuking.

However, I want to make it clear I'm not trying to belittle RDMs or downplay their meleeing capabilities. I'm well aware of the devastation a smart RDM/NIN geared with meleeing equipment and the proper buffs can cause on enemies closer to his/her level. I also will agree that there are many double-standards when it comes to DDs and TP. Hell, there are many double standards among all DDs, even if you toss out the TP discussion. Most WARs can get away with using swords, great swords, spears, or scythes, but most people will still say RDM can't melee because of its B dagger/sword skills. However, I did say part of the reason RDM can't keep up is also their lack of offensive JAs/traits, lack of offensive gear and lack of offensive foods in EXP party settings; I'm not using a B rank in sword/dagger as a scapegoat. Take my arguments as you will, and if you can prove me wrong, all the better for everyone.

[Hyrist]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

NIN sub also gives THFs Subtle Blow, so no loss there.

I'll remind the thread that we are decussing a 25-30~ party situation here.

Unfortunatly the Subdel Blow Trait dosent work on /nin untill post 30. I've checked my traits /nin as a ranger 28, its not there. However wit /mnk job classes DO get Subdel blow sooner. You can check this yourself with any database.

Addionally the strongest Weaponskill to Chain to SA is still combo up untill dagger skills catch up to the use of Viper Bite. (I've seen heavy damage with a thf that bosted waiting for a pull then unleashed a SA Combo, it made the local monk embarassed)

The damage on sword was done on an Elvaan Rdm, which I stressed this cause of their natural strenght higher than other job classes. He was hitting in the high teens range pretty consistantly. I dont expect theses results to be conisistant for a Taru, or even Mithra. However with the proper equipment this damage could be properly maintained.

On the subject of enspells, if the spell element is coinsiding with the element, weather, or elemental weakness of the mob, resist rates on IT's can be farily low unless you are dealign with fish or crawler type mobs. The reistance curve, however, does go up for ITs post 30, and again at 50.

Addionally, 70 damage on a blizzard is overexadurating in favor of nuking. Our nuke damage for blizzard is approximalty 50-60 range, if unresisted, from a rdm. Blms however deal about the range of damage you are talking about, however they prefer to stick to their higher tiers.

Its my beleift that a rdm can properly rest still between fights (no use saving TP when your man damage particpation is still MBs) while meleeing. And in doing so, they are creating both MP efficent and MTP efficent damage to the mob.(Up untill the mid thirties where things start getting more difficult) Accuracy isnt much of an issue at this rate as your sword is used as a means of support damage, not primary damage. And as most debuffs spells spend a minor amount of MP, and nuking is still best only during magic bursts.

Spending the money on Pies instead of just cookies, also helps this as it adds not only to the MP resting, but to the MP pool and potancy of spells as well, creating more of a leeway for an inteligent RDM to melee in.

On the Issues of JA/WS's, this is all taken into an account in complete aspence of the magical aspect of a Red Mage. The Magic Burst damage from a rdm makes up for the lack of WSes it donates to the cause. Its donations of Paralize and Slow help with the MTP gain it ends up giving during the course of meleeing, as it prevents and slows the MTP gain that the monster gets off of its own attacks, ontop of slowing overall damage.

It is only when the damage curve of the available RDM weapons becomes too low, and the preformance of main melees become too high to justify the use of a support melee, ontop of the increesed Magical Support duities, that makes a rdm put his sword away. And that happens in the later 30s early 40s, not as early as 25.

[Armando]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

Unfortunatly the Subdel Blow Trait dosent work on /nin untill post 30. I've checked my traits /nin as a ranger 28, its not there. However wit /mnk job classes DO get Subdel blow sooner. You can check this yourself with any database.

My apologies then I didn't know NIN got it so late. Now I'm curious, though...To what do you attribute such a big gap in damage on the same spell between BLM and RDM? Can a 6 skill difference in Elemental magic cause such a huge gap? I mean, A-rank skills go up by 3 each level (pre-51.) That being said, a BLM only two levels lower than the RDM would have the same elemental skill, assuming they're both capped. Both jobs have Magic Attack Bonus at this point, too. The only other difference between BLM and RDM would be INT, and I doubt the gap is insufficiently large to be made up with equipment. Also, how do fish/crawlers have different resist rates to enspells compared to other mobs? Also, can you recall if the mandies were being hit by Dia and Acid Bolts? I don't mean to be distrustful, but hitting the high teens (with consistency) sounds a bit odd on a mob that should be high defense. If enspells can do a consistent 6 damage, and the RDM could keep his melee numbers reasonably high, though, then I'd accept that the RDM would be efficient (MP-wise) if he were meleeing as opposed to nuking.

[Icemage]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

My apologies then I didn't know NIN got it so late. Now I'm curious, though...To what do you attribute such a big gap in damage on the same spell between BLM and RDM? Can a 6 skill difference in Elemental magic cause such a huge gap? I mean, A-rank skills go up by 3 each level (pre-51.) That being said, a BLM only two levels lower than the RDM would have the same elemental skill, assuming they're both capped. Both jobs have Magic Attack Bonus at this point, too. The only other difference between BLM and RDM would be INT, and I doubt the gap is insufficiently large to be made up with equipment.

Actually, there isn't much difference between BLM and RDM nuking the same spells at various levels. The thing that separates them is that BLMs get spells much faster than RDMs.. by the time RDMs get tier II spells, BLMs are working on tier III, and when RDMs get tier IV, RDMs are just starting tier III. Elemental skill doesn't affect spell damage at all, aside from reducing resists.

At certain levels, I've managed to outnuke poorly-equipped BLMs as RDM/BRD using the same spell.

Also, how do fish/crawlers have different resist rates to enspells compared to other mobs?

Each enemy has strengths and weaknesses to various elemental attacks. Aquatic enemies like fish and crabs are weak to lightning and ice, for example, which makes Enthunder or Enblizzard the spell of choice for them. In practice, though, this tends to result in you dealing ~4 damage instead of 0-1 against IT or higher enemies.

Also, can you recall if the mandies were being hit by Dia and Acid Bolts? I don't mean to be distrustful, but hitting the high teens (with consistency) sounds a bit odd on a mob that should be high defense. If enspells can do a consistent 6 damage, and the RDM could keep his melee numbers reasonably high, though, then I'd accept that the RDM would be efficient (MP-wise) if he were meleeing as opposed to nuking.

Dia would help, as would acid bolts/daggers. I'm dubious of the high teens figure without some -DEF% effects - I know I certainly didn't hit for anything resembling that at that level range with the best weapons money could buy, on the rare occasions when I'd pull out a weapon.


Icemage

[Hyrist]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

At certain levels, I've managed to outnuke poorly-equipped BLMs as RDM/BRD using the same spell.

Right, but the rdm is more common to be poorly equipped in this early stage than blm.

The damage cut is based off personal expirence. I was rather upset trying to nuke on even grounds with a blm at those levels, even with full mage gear. I havent confirmed this myself but I beleive that BLM as a Magic Attack trait above us even at that low level.

Also, how do fish/crawlers have different resist rates to enspells compared to other mobs?

Fish,and Crabs are defensive type mobs that gain magical resistant traits and abilities. These will reduce the damage of enspell and nukes pretty cleanly, dispite the element used. And by the time you hit crawlers for exp, that damage curve I was telling you about comes into effect, as defensive mobs seem to gain more defence traits at that level.

Also, can you recall if the mandies were being hit by Dia and Acid Bolts? I don't mean to be distrustful, but hitting the high teens (with consistency) sounds a bit odd on a mob that should be high defense. If enspells can do a consistent 6 damage, and the RDM could keep his melee numbers reasonably high, though, then I'd accept that the RDM would be efficient (MP-wise) if he were meleeing as opposed to nuking.

The party conisted of RDM BLM WHM RNG WAR/NIN SAM/WAR, against mandys. The War/Nin did use acid bolts, and the rdm always lead with dia, to answer your question both effects were consistantly in place. (I think the blm used frost and shock, I'm not sure) My figures were based off of both weapons facing a defence down and dia effect. (Thanks for reminding me). However I also stressed these numbers that the Elvaan used Pies and Mage gear, instead of what could have been more melee oriented gear, or even gear swaps.