weapon of choice for RDM

[Icemage]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

He's level 26, he melee skills are not apsolutly terrible yet. (If I can outmelee a Warrior/Ninja in ballista at level 30, (as a rdm/nin) then I dout its much worse at level 26 with /mage)

There is truth in the aspect that you should get accustomed to not using a sword in expirence parties, however this dosent come into play untill around level 35-41, where your casting duities will become consiterably more.

RDM and WAR actually do comparable damage with 1h sword at this range.. but not vs. a WAR using a great axe. Close? Yes. Same? No.

Ballista is one thing. XP parties are another matter entirely. What are you XPing on at level 26-30? Yuhtunga Mandragora and Goblins most likely.

In either case, you don't really want to give them any more TP than absolutely necessary. While you can still deal a bit of damage with enspells + a sword, it's counterproductive if the extra TP you give the enemy triggers an additional Bomb Toss or Dream Flower.. especially as you're now in area effect range instead of being safely out of range like you should be.

However in my opinion, you should not start to develop a proper resting stragity until after you obtain refresh, so you dont get a false prestence as to how much resting time you actually get when you manage your convert timer AND your refresh cycle.

Other than that, if you really want to keep swinging a sword, look into skill up parties and soloing.

There's never a bad time to learn rest timing; I'd MUCH rather someone rest a lot before they learn Refresh and then realize that they're spending too much time casting to rest than deal with someone who spent the entire time before Refresh swinging their sword in vain at monsters who are increasingly harder to hit and damage.


Icemage

[Hyrist]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

RDM and WAR actually do comparable damage with 1h sword at this range.. but not vs. a WAR using a great axe. Close? Yes. Same? No

Ballista:
A Warrior with a greate Axe In ballista fighting anything, let alone a RDM/NIN, is asking to get pwned. The delay on the weapon is too slow and a miss can be deadly, a pair of axes (or swprds) are far better use, even at that level capp.

And I find the use of G.Axe in the Jungels questionable, more often than not I find users of G.Axes to miss more often than not. And at these levels Warriors are still called to do Tanking duities. (Making /nin and shorter delay weapons more prefrable) The introduction of Double Attack, at this level, however, brings their damage potential in either case beyond that of a Rdm. (even enspells cannot compare to an occasional double attack)

However there is something to conister: The use of daggers in exp parties at this level is (In my opinion) Worse than the rdm's melee impact upon the party. The more frequent hits. (Remember, the mob TP gain is your TP gain +3 without subdel blow, which dosent kick in /nin at this level) cause a quicker TP gain to the monster, at minimal damage, even including weapon skills (As of this point even THF's do not have a steller enough dagger weaponskill to chain with SA for damage)

As opposed to a sword, which deals more damage per hit, with less TP gain to the monster over time, with an addional magic damage effect that does not give tp, unlike a nuke would.

However I agree with you on the issue of Dream Flower and Bomb Toss. Luckily Bomb Tosses occasionally fumble, and Mandragora do not always use Dream Flower (Though they still use it enough to annoy me so terribly.) When it comes to this issue, I would tell the rdm to defer to the opinion of their party leader. If they dont want them to melee, then sit in back and use a wand. Otherwise, if the party leader is ok with it, then enjoy your last few levels of meleeing in exp parties.

[Aeni]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

In either case, you don't really want to give them any more TP than absolutely necessary. While you can still deal a bit of damage with enspells + a sword, it's counterproductive if the extra TP you give the enemy triggers an additional Bomb Toss or Dream Flower.. especially as you're now in area effect range instead of being safely out of range like you should be.

I'd like to believe you on this, if it wasn't for many incidents that cause me to believe that things such as Bomb Tosses are not TP driven ...

Like in the Dunes the other day, the Gambler tossed 3 bombs in 10 seconds ... I seriously doubt anyone can equip tons of +haste at that level to give so much TP to the gob that quickly ... mind you, 3/6 in the party were non-meleeing as mages ...

I have quite a collection of stories which counters the argument that giving more TP to a monster is counterproductive. I believe some abilities may be TP driven, such as Spike Flail ... but some other monster abilities might just be SE's way of hamming it up ...

Edit:

Unless monster's WS have their TP costs severely reduced. Say, 25 TP for a bomb toss ... which would be aggravating to say the least

[Armando]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

You underestimate how much TP mobs get. It's said that they get your TP gain +3. A mob will always out-TP anyone else by natural means. Sometimes you don't notice because they won't fire off their TP moves immediately above 30%, but below 30% they use their TP immediately as soon as it hits 100%. When you have 3 people hitting the mob, its TP shoots up very fast. Honestly, we should just be glad they don't use their TP each time it's at 100% all throughout the fight, or we'd be all screwed D:

And if using a Great Axe is asking for a pwning, dual-weilding axes isn't very far off. The delay is the same, just that axe swings are divided into two. Why not just single weild? Makes it a lot harder for anyone to try to recast Utsusemi, and you don't lose anything except an extra hit in your WS. On the plus side you get a shield, which'll neglect the extra hit in their WS, and then some.

[tdh]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

I've wondered about mob TP gain as well. If I get hit by a mob, I get 2.x% TP each whack to my doom. When I hit something with a sword, I think I gain 6% with my AF Sword. Now I expect the mob to gain different TP depending on their delay much like we do, but they can't gain TP like we do from a physical hit. I've seen 3 Gobby bombs drop in side of 15 second. Even with a MNK, TP build shouldn't be that great. (PLD, MNK, DRK setup.)

I've also seen a Crawler Cocoon damn near back to back. I mean firing off before the Dispel timer was up. Even if all 3 people Double Attack, that's 30%TP at most from melee attacks. We need a way of finding out mob TP to actually test this.

[Icemage]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

If you all don't believe me about the TP, go test it yourself. It's not hard to do if you know what you're doing - there's posts about it scattered across this forum.

Every melee/ranged attack that we hit enemies for, they get X+3 TP, -1 per level of Subtle Blow. So if you hit an enemy with a sword that gives you 7 TP per hit, you give the enemy 10 TP per hit.

Magic spells that deal damage give a flat 10TP per spell to enemies.

This is easily verified with a Beastmaster - just hit a monster once, then have the beastmaster Charm the creature and check its <pettp>.


Icemage

[tdh]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

If you all don't believe me about the TP, go test it yourself. It's not hard to do if you know what you're doing - there's posts about it scattered across this forum.

Every melee/ranged attack that we hit enemies for, they get X+3 TP, -1 per level of Subtle Blow. So if you hit an enemy with a sword that gives you 7 TP per hit, you give the enemy 10 TP per hit.

Magic spells that deal damage give a flat 10TP per spell to enemies.

This is easily verified with a Beastmaster - just hit a monster once, then have the beastmaster Charm the creature and check its <pettp>.


Icemage

They get TP from Nukes as well?? That's cheating!

I didn't realize they gained TP that way. That's messed up.

[Hyrist]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

Icemage is correct on this. Unfortunatly it also causes a slight discrepency in MOB TP gain in earlier levels as some classes get Subdel blow early (Like monk)

Daggers, a double edged sword here, give and receive more TP over time than Sword, simply because of the delay to TP ratio gained. (Swords on average give 6-7, Daggers give a steady 5, however daggers can be profoundly faster than swords.)

The biggest problem I see at these low levels is simply the line we draw as effective use of damage per TP gained on the mob. In my opinion, swords (especially any sword with added effect of damage) is mostlikley a beter scorce of damage per tp than dagger, even in the hands of a THF. Which is why I dont objects to rdms weilding swords in the Jungles. I simply find it more appropriate than even me as a Ranger Dual weilding daggers. (However I prefer to have daggers out between the quick 10 tp I can gain if it gets close, and the ability to parry an incomming attack, but I generally stay out of melee range for ranged attacks.)

Anyways, what I find difficult is the Mob to MoB TP gain issue. I've seen Mandys and Goblins be able to use their WS's not even 2 seconds into the fight...

[Taskmage]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

Simple answer to the original question: follow this link and pick the weapon with the highest DPS.
http://ffxi.somepage.com/itemdb/adva...ob=rdm&limit=4
Give preference to weapons with lower delay to make the most of en- damage and take weapons with an accuracy bonus when you can. In my experience, additional effects on striking are overwritten by en- spells and should mostly be ignored.

[Aeni]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

If you all don't believe me about the TP, go test it yourself. It's not hard to do if you know what you're doing - there's posts about it scattered across this forum.

Every melee/ranged attack that we hit enemies for, they get X+3 TP, -1 per level of Subtle Blow. So if you hit an enemy with a sword that gives you 7 TP per hit, you give the enemy 10 TP per hit.

Magic spells that deal damage give a flat 10TP per spell to enemies.

This is easily verified with a Beastmaster - just hit a monster once, then have the beastmaster Charm the creature and check its <pettp>.


Icemage

Then explain this .... if players knew about this, what would be so great about having RNGs in PT? One would assume (pre-patch) that with dual wielding, low delay (for faster TP gains) and xbow spamming RNGs (two or three in a PT) the monster would be "penta" spamming it's JA/WS every 3 seconds. However, that was rarely the case and I've been in 2x RNG PTs before and did not notice this difference.

I think this is a bunch of crockery as there is a big difference between whether or not a monster gains TP any more or faster and whether or not the monster will use the TP, once it has enough to use it.

Also, since you said something about magic spells that do damage giving TP as well, then this will include enfeebling spells, since spells like Dia, Bio and BLM's frost, etc. spells cause dmg, noticeably dmg initially and then over time. You think by your logic, mages shouldn't even cast at all, period, as they risk giving monster a lot of TP ... again, this is all phoey and I seem to think whoever devised this kind of argument did so on the basis that he/she was biased in his/her opinions and was grasping for straws trying to explain his/her biasness to others.

The hard fact remains: my own experience have said that this was never an issue before, never an issue now and shouldn't be an issue in the future.

[Armando]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

Thing is, BLMs can easily outdamage a two-handed weapon swing while giving it less TP. And yeah, I do agree it's generally a non-issue. I'm not gonna invite people based on how much/little TP they give to the mob. However, there's still no reason for the RDM to feed 9 TP to the mob for very weak damage when he could've been nuking for far better damage and giving it 10 TP. There's also no reason for the RDM to feed it 9 TP per swing for little damage when he could've been kneeling for MP and putting it to much better use (backup cures, nuking, or simply making MP for the next mob.) And there's no reason for the RDM to feed the monster 9 TP per swing for little damage when the mob is below 30% and using TP moves every 10-20 seconds I just can't find a good reason why a RDM would want to melee in an EXP party.

[Hyrist]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

Right, but in this crcumstance, (20s-30s) Rdm dosent suffer such a disadvantage in damage, infact they do signifigantly more than any dagger weilder at that level.

The only reason I would have them NOT melee at that level is simply to rest more.

I meleed up to my 40s, it was at about 35 when I noticed a very signifigant gap in my melee damage (including enspell) Knowing how heavy my mage duities were, I equipped a wand, and left it at that (Still meleing from time to time depending on how the party was settup) But I'm still looking closley at SE's updates to see if they are sneaking more stuff in to make it easier for rdms to melee exp.

As far as a reason why RDMs would want to. RDM's get alot of false advertising. Their image is protrayed as a magic fencer, who weilds a sword and a shield, not wand and staff. Even during its early levels they are encouraged to use melee weaponry, and alot of their job-unique skills point them into the combat direction, with emphasis on endurance. Add that, and the history of Red Mages through Final Fantasy that has always protrayed them as a Hybrid mage, it takes an older fan alot more to accept the fact that its better to put the sharpy playthings away when working in a group.

[Armando]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

Why daggers, though? Their WS are so mediocre without SATA compared to sword. And I still feel the RDM would be a disadvantage simply because of lack of melee food. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one :3

[Reincarnation]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

I know this really doesn't matter, but.... Notice how any question asked will alwaks lead to a larger topic which in doing so will lead to an argument.... ^w^;

[Lunaryn]

Re: weapon of choice for RDM

I do agree, it's becoming an increasing annoyance for me about how it's nearly impossible to have any real discussion about strategy for the various aspects of play in this game, because the moment you open your mouth about any possible combination that is not the one tried-and-true approach to that main's role in standard XP parties, people will jump all over you immediately, whether you are interested in strategy for xp, missions, bcnm, solo, etc. There is an incredibly strong XP-party-first mentality in all talk about playing in this game, and within that something of a standard-pickup-party-first mentality wherein for any given level, there is one place where you shall level, a specific set of mobs you will target, and almost the entirety of the role a party expects you to play can be summed up in your job/sub. While the ability to operate in this manner has clear benefits, especially in an environment where you may well need to operate with complete strangers and even face a language barrier, the attitude that this is the only way the game shall or may ever be played presents a detriment to those who would explore other facets of this game besides the usual xp grind.

This is not to say that such discussions of alternate situations do not occur at all. I have been in some interesting and frank discussions of various alternative situations and strategies for aspects of FFXI. However, a common feature of these discussions is that they invariably begin with an explicit condemnation of the idea of using such strategies in an xp party, and each individual to join the discussion usually issues such a condemnation before adding their take. This seems to have just become part of the FFXI culture, but it is incredibly irritating at times and I suspect has driven some people away from the game. "There's only one way to play the game" is a common complaint about FFXI, and while it is not literally true, the way in which this attitude toward xp parties is expressed I believe helps to further the perception.

It would be some progress if one day when people hear me talk about subbing something non-standard, wearing unusual equipment, taking non-standard actions, etc., their response is "You're talking about (soloing/doing a BCNM/doing ballista/etc.), right?" instead of "Don't do that!" or something to the effect.