What if RDMs were different?

[Altae]

So, I was thinking on how dramatically a slight change to Refresh could affect party concepts. For example: What if SE/PoL decided someday to make Refresh a self-cast only? (I'm not saying they would or will be. Just a thought/example.)

Well, the way I see it is that RDMs would be stocking up on lots of +MP equipment. With refresh a self-cast spell, they could start acting like main healers and WHMs could be enfeeblers. It's almost like a role change.

At another perspective, a RDM could actually provide more towards the elimination of a pull. In my experience, RDMs have done nothing but heal, debuff/enfeeble, dispel, MB/nuke, and refresh everyone. If refresh were a self-cast only spell, they could start meleeing mobs more often. Even at higher levels. Perhaps sub RNG and sidewinder them. Because you cut so much casting time out by not having to refresh everyone. (Yes, I know that keeping certian job's MP up could do just as much or more. But I'm aiming at the RDM perspectives as to how we sit there and end up refreshing 4-5 people 2 times a pull.)

I'm not saying all this because I'm sick of the whole "refresh everyone" concept. Just a little thinking on the other side of things. How important of a role do you think RDMs would have if Refresh were a self-cast only spell? What ways could they still contribute to EXP Parties? Or even any party.

[Jei]

Re: What if RDMs were different?

wouldn't affect us at all soloing. But will hurt the PT a lot... We'll be the same pretty much with less mp needed to spend.

edit - well this actually bring back memories. You know what it was like being a RDM pre refresh ; ;?

When I /sea ppl around my level, I had to prey that there's no other mages at all. There was no reason to invite RDM at all if there's whm blm brd available. Even anotehr RDM seeking is a bad bad news.

Even tho I was surrounded with japanese players, I was forced to lead most of my groups if I wanted any exp at all. Took me many weeks before I could communicate with them.

The first time I ever got PT invite without being in jeuno, was after I got refresh. Before that, if I'm not in jeuno I suppose I could say bye-bye to any possible invitations.
Oh god I don't ever want to look back to those days pre refresh.

[Coinspinner]

Re: What if RDMs were different?

I remember when people said that WHM was obsolete due to Refresh + Convert. SE adds Flash, Regen 2 & 3 and the players said it wasn't enough... until they had a few months to experience it. It was enough to restore balance in the end.

RDM PT popularity would dive with self-only Refresh. In most people's eyes, Refresh is 100% essential to a PT and that's what you invite a RDM for. That's not totally the case, but it's people's opinions that matter most, like with DRG. You'd probably need Paralyze II and Blind II to compensate for the loss of Refresh and keep RDM at the same value to a PT.

[Jei]

Re: What if RDMs were different?

even a raise 4 wouldn't compensate im afraid. when forming PT these days, having a refresher is like the norm now >.>

[Enialas]

Re: What if RDMs were different?

right now, according to most people's opinion, there's a pt slot that's rdm/brd (despite the fact a rdm and bard in pt, it kicks #$%, had a few rdm,blm,brd pts) and w/ 2 stackable ballads and refresh, it really helps recover the mp cost of rdm/blm version of protectra & shellra and rdms that wont refresh is like brds who wont ballad and demand refresh.

back on topic, even though I never went thru the pre-refresh days, I've heard about them, if Refresh was changed to self cast, you'd see a lot of whm,blm,brd pts. in some pt's i've been part of lately people feel: awesome bard > awesome rdm > mediocre brd > mediocre rdm. if the pt has a pld, you might get in, if they have a nin, the whm becomes a nuker.

now if they came up with Refresh II and self cast, it would help cover the mp cost of Refresh, if you have to Refresh more than 2 others in your pt. but what they really need is not Refresh II, but Refreshra or Refreshaga

[Balodoth]

Re: What if RDMs were different?

Altae, that is exactly what I figured would happen to the spell subbed if the level cap was ever raised to 85. Not that I think it will be, there'd be so many things to iron out to keep from ruining the game, but I know every casting job envies RDM's Refresh (& DRG). If other jobs ever got Refresh, it would likely become self-only and give back like 75-85% of a RDM's refresh.

I think a more possible, although still unlikely, change to Refresh would be to make it a bit more reliable on Enhancing Skill. Something like that would mean it starts out at 2 MP per tick and moves up to 3 about 6 levels later and finally runs the full amount of time 6 levels after that. By doing something like that, RDM wouldn't so quickly and cleanly replace BRD as the MP source in a party. Honestly, RDM/BRD can give back 4 MP per tick while BRD is stuck at 1 for another 5 levels, and then it only adds up to 3 per tick.

[Jei]

Re: What if RDMs were different?

If SE likes RDM to be a busy job, I think we're more likely to see refresh 2 than refreshga o.O That way it doesn't change the way we play so much.

I think something similar to BRD's relic horn would be nice. A Relic joyuse that makes refresh refresh more MP in increase en damage? weee.

[Ghostraven]

Re: What if RDMs were different?

if refresh was self only,

Most rdm would sub bard (poke icemage)
The rest would switch to brd main

Subbing rng for sidewinder? RDM archery is pretty poor on IT mobs. missed Sword swings and missed arrow shots would take forever to build TP for a missed Sidewinder lol

Double Post Edited:

You'd probably need Paralyze II and Blind II to compensate for the loss of Refresh and keep RDM at the same value to a PT.

(Paralyze II) (Yes Please.)

Double Post Edited:

but what they really need is not Refresh II, but Refreshra or Refreshaga

HELL FUCKING YES

[Enialas]

Re: What if RDMs were different?

If SE likes RDM to be a busy job, I think we're more likely to see refresh 2 than refreshga o.O That way it doesn't change the way we play so much.
<snip>

heh, a RDM can dream can't he? but it's such a nice dream, maybe too nice (ie overpowered)

I see Refresh II more likely too and besides -ra spells are in WHM domain anyways.

I was thinking about the Enhancing Magic skill dependent Refresh, but i decided against it because I know SE would do something like this:

Refresh > Enhancing Magic Skill 80 : Yields 1mp/tic for 10 tics (30 sec) (lose 30)
Refresh > Enhancing Magic Skill 120: Yields 2mp/tic for 20 tics (1 min) (break even)
Refresh > Enhancing Magic Skill 185: Yields 2mp/tic for 40 tics (2 min)
Refresh > Enhancing Magic Skill 250: Yields 2mp/tic for 60 tics (2.5min)

since RDMs usually have enhancing way underleveled when they hit 41, they'll more likely be deterred from Refresh till they got thier Enhancing Magic up and people would demand RDMS w/ capped Enhancing Magic skils. Because of Refresh though, my skill is almost capped, was capped once, that's how I know I'm "almost" (Enf always capped)

[Altae]

Re: What if RDMs were different?

If there ever were a Refresh 2 implemented, it probably would have an over-riding effect to Refresh 1. Meaning, you wouldn't be able to have them both active for a combined effect. But it wouldn't hurt RDMs much at all as Refresh 2 should ideally regenerate at a better amount per 2-3 seconds.

But I haven't thought of the level cap thing. Nor given it much thought. If they did raise the level cap so RDM can be subbed, I would like to see Refresh become a self-cast only. Though, I doubt SE/PoL would reduce/hinder the effect. If this were to ever happen, I'd also look forward to a more improved Refresh spell that RDMs can learn. WHMs have Regen 2 and 3, so why can't RDMs speciallize in high tier/levels of Refresh? I could only think of this to be a possible excuse from SE/PoL: That HP is affected more by monsters than MP.

[tdh]

Re: What if RDMs were different?

I would like to have a Refresh II, but I want it to be a Self Cast. For it to help us handle all the MP used Refreshing 2-4 other MP users. Yeah Refreshra would be nice. Would save us a lot of time per fight. Just cast it once and get everybody covered. We could then Haste more people, Enfeeble faster, possibly nuke a little more.

That's the only thing I don't like so much. Having to Refresh 4 people, and enfeeble. All while being the lowest level player in the party and getting a lot of resists despite my MND+25 and INT+27. So I'm blowing through a lot of MP. Which is why I've been loving NIN & THF parties.

[Altae]

Re: What if RDMs were different?

As a part time healer, I hate THFs in PTs. I don't care how much damage they can do, what pulling skills they have, or who their Galka friend is. You'll never know when your THF is a lazy bum who isn't doing Sneak Attack + Trick Attack fast. The ones taking their jolly time end up doing more damage to the PT than necessary.

Example: First provoke? Hmm, WAR, DRK, SAM, MNKs, etc, etc. Ideally, these jobs shouldn't really take damage unless they intentionally provoke or out damage the main tank's level of hate. But if a THF is taking their time, healers now have to spend extra MP doing Cure 3s and 4s vs high level monsters' damage. This is where you pray Conserve MP will be at your side.

[Jei]

Re: What if RDMs were different?

sounds like you hate a bad one. hehe.
I'm pretty sure im a decent THF xD And seeing other THF not playing up to standard really annoys me.

[UnnamedGalka]

Re: What if RDMs were different?

but what they really need is not Refresh II, but Refreshra or Refreshaga

Naw. "Refreshga" really should stay a BRD-only ability.

RDM are perfect the way they are. I think they're the most versatile job in the game, if not a bit overpowered.

[Enialas]

Re: What if RDMs were different?

Naw. "Refreshga" really should stay a BRD-only ability.

RDM are perfect the way they are. I think they're the most versatile job in the game, if not a bit overpowered.

since you're a brd, you have brd bias. I'm rdm, I have rdm bias. it's a joke i share w/ some rdm friends on my server.

from what i've seen on my server, most people dont want a rdm and a brd in the pt. already if they have to choose between a brd and a rdm, they're going to pick brd. because awesome brd > awesome rdm > good brd ... etc. sometimes if the pt has a pld, that can be the only deciding factor. however rdm + brd + mage + front line up can be totally awesome.

plds & rdms can be best friends, they need you, you need them, well, you'd rather be healing them over yourself